“In my view, prosecutorial work is significantly easier than criminal defense work.”
Clearly written by someone who has never worked as a prosecutor. Since those offices are also publicly funded, the pay is usually modest, the facilities pretty worn, and additional resources-e.g. independent DA investigators-few and far between. And as a practical matter, the DA is elected-and since as an ADA you are an at-will employee, many lose their jobs with each new DA being elected. The chief PD isn’t elected.
And keep in mind that although the police and the prosecutor are often lumped together, a la “Law and Order”, often the relationship between these two independent entities is fraught at best. Prosecutors often find themselves being held responsible for the actions of the police, and it’s important to remember that in many jurisdictions, it’s the police who initially charge the case, not the DA. This often leads to a great deal of tension between these two separate agencies.
Why is this important? For starters, it leads to many, many ethics complaints against prosecutors, many of which are fully unfounded. And as noted above, there aren’t special rules for defense counsel-it’s a one-way street.
OP, you’ve described your applicant as a SJW; maybe it would be illuminating for her to work for a prosecutor’s office for a while, either as a law school intern or as a law student.
Elected DAs also face political pressure about which cases are worthy of prosecution.
The relationship can get more complicated if a police officer is accused of something like excessive force or some other misconduct that is something that can be prosecuted.
Prosecutors have the benefit of vast public investigative resources both at the state & federal level not given public defenders.
Prosecutorial immunity has led to many abuses.
Prosecutorial discretion has also led to many abuses including seemingly unfair application of the law.
Dangerous for one with political ambitions to engage in prosecutorial work as decisions can be influenced by one’s future plans,
I do agree, however, that a social justice warrior (SJW) is an unlikely person to become a prosecutor.
And I do agree that most state & local level prosecutors are very low paid. Less than a decade ago, many attorneys working in local DA offices were unpaid volunteers seeking trial experience or any work experience to bolster their resumes during a period of few available attorney positions.
P.S. With respect to advice to work as an intern or as a summer law clerk in a prosecutor’s office, it is best to be certain that the student has no interest in working as a public defender as PD offices rarely accept anyone who has worked in a prosecutor’s office, but the reverse is not true.
Another posted the ABA Special Rules For Prosecutors link. This is a proposed “model rule” necessitated by repeated and frequent abuses of prosecutorial authority.
LOL at the Model Rule provision regarding withholding of exculpatory evidence or of evidence favorable to the defense / defendant. This “model rule” is, in reality, little more than a pipedream. (Delaying tactics are quite common. Withholding of exculpatory evidence happens so frequently that the ABA needed to adopt a special rule about it in the ABA Model Rules–Special Rules for Prosecutors.)
And LOL at the Model Rules provision about not over-charging a defendant for offenses without probable cause. Overcharging defendants is a very common prosecutorial tactic used to scare defendants into accepting a plea deal.
Everyone appreciates the ABA’s attempt to clean-up prosecutorial misconduct, but the ABA has no authority. A state bar must adopt the proposed model rule. Even so, the standards of review for claims of prosecutorial abuses are favorable to prosecutors and significant harm has been done to a defendant & to the defendant’s case which may never be rectified.
23, you've never defended, or prosecuted, a criminal case, so it's best to always consider the source.
And regarding the Model Rules, it’s a shame that you couldn’t do a bit more research…as in, the rules applying to prosecutors have been adopted by the largest state bars in the country-CA/DC/NY etc etc. So they were “model” rules for the ABA; they’re mandatory in the state bar.
It’s also clear that you’ve got an inherent bias against prosecutors, which colors all your opinions. In reality, the overwhelming majority of career prosecutors are ethical and dedicated public servants. But if you actually practiced law you might know that.
Do you really believe that ABA Model rules are mandatory ? They are only mandatory if adopted by a state bar for attorneys practicing in that jurisdiction. (Enforcement of those rules–even if adopted by the relevant jurisdiction–is quite difficult. And even successful application of those rules does not necessarily lead to relief for the defense / defendant.)
Challenging a prosecutor for an ethical violation is a different procedure held under a different standard of review than a defendant facing & defending against a criminal charge or charges.
Reality is not the same as bias. But, I do agree that one of us is biased.
One thing that I think that we can both agree on is that if OP’s daughter is a SJW (Social Justice Warrior), then she may be a bit confused about the world of criminal law in the US.
Um…if you had bothered to read my post, you would have seen that the model rules have been adopted-and are mandatory-in virtually all state bar associations-as in, numerous complaints regarding violations are filed with and investigated by bar counsel against prosecutors. As noted previously, no such rules apply to criminal defense counsel.
But even though you have zero courtroom experience, you’ll continue to offer your opinions regarding the relative ethical standards.
My advice would be for you to actually attend law school, pass the bar, and try a case or two before offering sweeping pronouncements about law school and the practice of law.
I don’t agree that which law school she attends will be less of an issue if your D is interested in criminal law. In my experience, many (most?) successful prosecutors, as well as defense lawyers, start their careers in so-called Big Law firms. A few years in Big Law can provide valuable experience and training, and enable young lawyers to save a few dollars or pay down loans, before becoming prosecutors or moving into defense work. Even an SJW should be able to find a firm that fits - for example a firm with a strong commitment to pro bono work and a history of graduates who have gone on to do the kind of things she is interested in. In any event, which law school she chooses (or chooses her) will matter, both to Big Law and thereafter.
Google “prosecutorial immunity” for more examples of abuses. Even if caught, the US Supreme Court ruled that prosecutors cannot face civil lawsuits for prosecutorial abuses, no matter how severe.
In the school I went to and all that I looked at, first years took the classes assigned to them. No electives. We took the section they assigned us to, sat where they told us to sit, did the work in the order directed to.
No options.
Second year about half the classes were electives and by third year almost all were- if you consider things like Evidence elective (almost everyone took it).
I agree that a factor in picking a school may be whether the school has a criminal law clinic. An urban law school with a criminal clinic may give more opportunities to be in a courtroom early.
Acceptances:
NYU
Cornell (scholarship offer)
Georgetown
George Washington University (scholarship offer)
Harvard (need based aid unlikely)
Northwestern
Berkeley (def NO scholarship)
NYU, Georgetown, and Northwestern have not mentioned scholarships yet.
Meanwhile, D is working at a fairly good job and is thinking she might defer another year in order to get experience and money at the current job (nothing to do with law, but fairly high level).
On her interest in Criminal law, she has mentioned a concept called “progressive prosecution” but I don’t know enough to unravel that. She does not expect to be getting a high-paying position when she gets out (could be less than she is making now).
Latest update on D. She has accepted admission to Harvard Law and deferred until Fall '22 so she can continue at her job for another year. She will be trying to save enough money to at least get through the first year. At some point our income starts counting for less (not sure how this works) and she may get some aid, but for now she’s not.
Congrats to your daughter!! Been rereading the thread since my D also interested in law school! So exciting for yours.
Can I ask if your D had any extra-curiculars or particularized work experience that added to her apps? Harvard will open so many doors for her and I am sure she can figure out a career that fits. Progressive prosection involves a lot of fascinating policy questions - working within the system to the extent the system permits.
Just wanted to respond- if I may - to the direction below. I don’t believe this is accurate - I personally know many, many people who’ve gone from prosecution to public defender work.
@Jolynne-Smith: Your statement that you “know many, many people who’ve gone from prosecution to public defender work” is very difficult to believe if for no other reason than conflicts of interest.
Are you sure that you mean “public defender” and not to “private criminal defense” work ?
Please share the jurisdiction as this could lead to overturning thousands of criminal convictions due to ethical conflicts.
P.S. While possible, it would almost certainly have to be in different jurisdictions & most likely in different states. However, it is common for prosecutors to go into private criminal defense work.
The difficulty is primarily two-fold: PDs (public defenders) tend to be zealous about their work & public defenders handle a lot of alleged repeat offenders. Additionally, it can take many years for criminal appeals & 2255s/habeaus cases to get through the criminal justice system. Furthermore, prosecutorial tactics used to secure convictions are not always as ethical as the law mandates (e.g. lots of non-disclosed exculpatory evidence).