Upper Middle Class Frustration

Paying for College
261

However, your examples all require either (a) parental support (living at home, which typically cost much less than living on one’s own at the college), or (b) military service academy (highly selective and only for those with goal of becoming a military officer), or (c) ROTC big scholarship (similar to (b)).

A generation or more ago, I remember it being not that unusual for high school graduates to be self supporting living on their own (rather than being supported by parents by living at home) and having a bit left over (possibly also with small student loans) to pay for the then-small tuition and books at an in-state public university (possibly the flagship). That is harder (which is not to say impossible) now, due to worse high school graduate job prospects and higher college costs.

262

@ucbalumnus: Well, another issue is that jobs that require just a HS education haven’t kept up with inflation. Cost of living generally tracks inflation, but it’s almost impossible to support yourself on a minimum wage job many places these days.

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Are the SUNY and CUNY colleges truly as bad as the OP makes them out to be?

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We’re middle class. We have always accepted that there will be things we can’t afford. When I took S to visit four colleges in three states over spring break, we drove my 2005 Prius with 115k on the odometer. We’re expecting to send that car to college with S when he goes. It should last him through undergrad, and it was an excellent value for the money. I mention it because that paid for beater of a car that won’t die unless one of us shoots it is a perfect example of knowing what we can afford and doing our best to live within our means.

It doesn’t matter how nice that Lexus or Mercedes is because we can’t afford one. Not being able to afford one means we look for good values in our price range, and if we see a screaming deal, we grab it.

At the moment, Ivy, pricey private and UC educations are all on the “can’t afford it” list, and several of the big money NMF offers are all on the screaming deal list.

For us, at least, it’s just not that big of a deal that Ivies, LACs and even UCs aren’t an option. S will take an NMF offer to an OOS flagship or state school. We’re happy because S will get an excellent, debt-free undergraduate education. S is happy because he gets to choose from a list six or seven schools knowing that he’ll get into all of them and that he can pick his favorite without having to worry about a financial veto.

Even better, since he’s got the stats for auto-admit at his two favorites, he can relax during his senior year. Note that relax doesn’t equal slack off. It means he doesn’t have to sweat every hundredth of a grade point because of what it might do to his class rank. He doesn’t have to cram every possible AP class into his schedule (because rigor!) while trying to find time to sleep, volunteer, do a sport, found a club and maybe have a girlfriend.

Instead, he’ll be taking classes at both the HS and the local CC just because he wants to. He’ll be doing as much theatre as he can, including some directing and stage management. He’ll be able to hang out with his friends, watch movies, play video games, have a part-time job, and spend time with his gf, who is studying hard for her PSAT so she can take one of the same offers my S will have.

We’re not angry at all. In fact, we feel pretty darn blessed.

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@roethlisburger - Do you have any data other than Dale & Krueger?

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@DiotimaDM so your kid got a free ride. Congrats. Since they are pretty rare, what is the point to this thread?

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If you want data on post-college incomes, www.equality-of-opportunity.org has the most robust and comprehensive data set. Here’s the nytimes write up: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/some-colleges-have-more-students-from-the-top-1-percent-than-the-bottom-60.html?_r=0. If you want an estimate of the value added of colleges to future income, Brookings, https://www.brookings.edu/research/using-earnings-data-to-rank-colleges-a-value-added-approach-updated-with-college-scorecard-data/, the Economist, http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/10/value-university, and Georgetown’s CEW, https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/college-rankings/, all try to measure that using College Scorecard income data.

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Do you mean what is the point to my post? I can’t speak for the thread since I didn’t start it.

The point is that full rides / full tuition packages are out there, and not just for the neediest students. It’s not all that hard to prep for the PSAT / SAT. I’ve seen lots of families here say that their kid qualified for NMF but they didn’t complete the process or turned down the offers because they didn’t like the schools / the schools weren’t prestigious enough. I’ve got no problem with that part. If somebody’s family can make USC / HYPSM / top LACs, etc. work and their kid gets in and wants to go, more power to 'em. Rock on.

But if someone is handing their kid a perfectly good Prius (e.g. NMF or other merit) and all they are is upset because the kid wants the Lexus and the financial stretch hurts or they can’t make it work, well, in CC parlance, there a heckuva lot to be said for “learn to love your (financial) safety.”

I fell in love with a Thunderbird once. Yeah, it stung a little that I knew I was never going to have it. I’m not saying it shouldn’t ever sting, or that being disappointed about a dream / prestige school is wrong. I’m saying that there are perfectly good - even excellent - educations way beyond the top 25, 50 or even top 100 schools, and they’re a lot cheaper, too.

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@roethlisburger: Very difficult to do without separating out majors.

270

@Quietlylurking There is nothing wrong with publics in New England such as UMass Amherst or Lowell. I’m guessing that you might be in Massachusett. Back in the day, colleges weren’t expected to be country clubs. Kids were happy and grateful to go to college and didn’t obsess over dream schools. There is great value in Maine for New England kids. You can always choose a posh option for grad school.

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I tend to think that if most kids could study or prep their way to a test score that would equal a free ride, they would do so (even for kids that are pretty naive about the cost of college).

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@Portercat: I daresay that most admits to an Ivy/equivalent (unless they got in because of a hook) can score a free-ride somewhere.

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So this thread is only about those types of students? <2% of the student population? Now we’re talking about the academic elite.

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It’s way more than the top 2% if you count full-tuition at places like Bama. 30 ACT (full tuition at Bama and many others) is top 5%. 20 ACT (Alabama State) is top 50%.

275

Not sure why the top 50% is relevant. At Alabama State, Moderate scholarships do not start for OOS students until at least ACT of 27.

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@Portercat: Well, of you’re below the top 5% and unhooked, honestly, you’re not getting in to Middlebury or Colgate anyway.

And if you’re around top 20-30 percentile, I don’t know why you’d think your state’s publics aren’t good enough for you . . .

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Of the 1.5 million students who take the PSAT approximately 50,000 (3%) meet the score cutoff for the first step of becoming a NMS semifinalist. In the end 8,200 (around 1/2%) receive National Merit Scholarships.
So to say

is to my mind a bit like saying “Anyone can make $250,000. I’ve seen parents who just don’t want to bother putting in the time it takes or they didn’t like the careers where one can earn that kind of money but It’s not that hard.”

(Otherwise I like @DiotimaDM’s post)

278

Who said that they are not good enough?

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1264308-why-does-everyone-think-that-full-rides-at-state-flagships-are-easy-to-come-by.html

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“There is nothing wrong with publics in New England such as UMass Amherst or Lowell.”

These are both very good universities.

Given peer pressure, it can be difficult for upper middle class kids to be happy going to reasonably priced schools. However, “I have to go to Middlebury rather than UMass” may be analogous to “I need a Ferrari rather than a Ford”. The rest of us don’t have to care, and parents need to push back even if the friends have Ferrari’s. I think that if the kid wants a Ferrari, or to go to Middlebury, then the parents need to make the kids pay for it, and probably need to refuse to co-sign the loans if the amounts are too heinous, even if this results in a forced gap year and an angry child.

I have seen at least a few cases of students going to “big name” universities that to me appeared to be stunningly inappropriate, such as a kid that doesn’t deal well with stress going to U.Chicago. On CC I tend to push back. Generally when faced in person with very proud parents who are pushing their kids in this direction, I don’t think that there is anything that I can say that will be productive, so I just say “congratulations” and try to change the subject.

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@Sue22 I agree with you and thanks for the stats. So many CC threads are full good info for all students, then turn into a conversation only for the top 5%, 2% (however you want to slice it), students. I originally saw this thread as more inclusive for many types of students.