US News 2008 Rankings- Predictions

College Search & Selection
321

<p>JohhnyK - this is top fund raising, but is it the same as the % used by US news for alumni contributions? I think the % used by US News has more to do with quantity of alumni donating rather than how large their donations are. (Though there is definitely a correlation).</p>

<p>Either way, thats not the point. I was saying that Duke had a record-breaking year, as in it did better than all previous years, relative to itself. I'm not sure if this list proves Columbia and Penn also had better years than previous (as in, it isn't certain that they also had record-breaking years). So in relation to their positions in US News Rankings 2007, they won't increase much if their fund raising is the same as it has been, even though it is better than Duke's.</p>

322

<p>Regarding the FY06 results for "The Penn Fund", Penn's unrestricted gift fund for undergrad alumni (the most significant component for US News stats):</p>

<p>
[quote]
The Penn Fund collected an impressive $21.1 million this fiscal year, a 8.5% increase over last year. Participation also continued to soar as over 26,000 alumni made a gift to the University, a 2.6% increase over last year.

[/quote]
</p>

<p><a href="http://www.alumni.upenn.edu/pennfund/FY06campaign.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.alumni.upenn.edu/pennfund/FY06campaign.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>So some improvement, but no idea how it compares to that of other schools. In any event, this only counts for 5% of the total score:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Alumni giving rate (5 percent). The average percentage of alumni who gave to their school during 2003-04 and 2004-05 is an indirect measure of student satisfaction.

[/quote]
</p>

<p><a href="http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/about/07rank_brief.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/about/07rank_brief.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

323

<p>I think Duke had a similar increase of about 9%. So I guess Penn and Duke won't change relative to one another in alumni giving. I dunno about Columbia or Dartmouth (which are ranked right below Duke and Penn though separated by more). </p>

<p>This is 2006.
"Duke’s Annual Fund, supported by more than 44,000 alumni, parents and friends, exceeded its goal for the 31st consecutive year and established a record with more than $25.4 million."</p>

<p>This is 2005.
"Duke’s Annual Fund, supported by more than 44,000 alumni, parents and friends, set a new record with $23.1 million."</p>

324

<p>US News focuses on the percentage of undergrad alumni who donate, not the total amount donated. Also, the numbers you quoted for Duke sound like those for all unrestricted gift donors (including professional/grad alums, parents, etc.), not just undergrad alums.</p>

325

<p>yeah, I just couldn't find any specific numbers so I used the Duke annual fund's growth as a proxy. Alumni giving is only 5% so I guess it doesn't matter.</p>

326

<p>
[quote]
yeah, I just couldn't find any specific numbers so I used the Duke annual fund's growth as a proxy.

[/quote]

Put one of those Wharton chicks* on it--she won't give up til she gets you the answer. :p</p>

<p>*your word, not mine :)</p>

327

<p>I think total fundraising should count in addition to the percentage of donors. If they want to work at it, it is pretty easy to get a bunch of $25 donations to bring the % up.</p>

<p>UW #1 state school again!</p>

328

<p>Ramses: Agreed. That is why, when why my second child chose Hopkins over a couple of ivys, both located in areas he did not like, I did not balk. As long as he was chosing a school where he could flourish, the choice was his. My younger child also did the same thing, chosing a top LAC over a few ivys, even one in the coveted "HYP" group. Ultimately, she did go on to an ivy law school, but much preferred her undergraduate environment. There are many great schools out there, and I do agree, that looking at selectivity as the be -all and end- all, is not the right way to go. Of course as a parent, you want your children where they will fit, so the PA score, along with the other stats, to a lesser degree for myself, are just a guide. But clearly, for me, PA is the most valuable number of the stats, because (I hate to sound like a broken record), it is a number allegedly complied by experts in the field.
There are a bunch of factors, extraneous to the quality of education, that can and do affect selectivity. One of these is the location of a school. Ten years ago, when my youngest was applying to college, Tufts, though a wonderful school, was a true safety for high achieving students. Eleven kids from her graduating class of about 80, were accepted. The popularity of Tufts has grown, due in no small part to its location right outside of Boston, thus, Tufts gets lots of applications, and can no longer be considered a safety. The large number of apps, of course, has caused a surge in selectivity, along with a rise in median SAT. The same can be said of NYU, which, when I was a applying to colleges, was where kids in NY went when they could not get in anywhere else. It was virtually a walk-in. At the time, NYU was more of a commuter NYC school. But it has become a national school, and its popularity continues to grow because it is located in NY. Of course, its graduate schools are fabulous. NYU gets tons of apps, and is therefore becoming more selective every year.
There are other reasons that cause an increase in selectivity, such as religious affiliation...think Georgetown, Boston College...which are also affected by location and big-time sports. Other schools go on a huge advertising campaign, sending glossy literature, talking about a plethora of scholarship money, while encouraging kids to apply...even to those that probably do not stand an even chance. Yet others manipulate selectivity and mid scores by manipulating the numbers, waitlists, and goodness knows what other methods.
So, I agree that looking at the mid numbers, especially when they are so close for most of the top schools, is not the best way to have an understanding of the quality of education. Those figures are all so similar, that quibbling over them is virtually meaningless.</p>

329

<p>"PA is the most valuable number of the stats, because (I hate to sound like a broken record), it is a number allegedly complied by experts in the field."</p>

<p>Its not compiled by experts in the field. Its compiled by Presidents of Universities, who are most likely experts within their own University. Consider that many University presidents are refusing to take part in the survey because it is so biased. I guess arguing this point doesn't do much anymore.</p>

330

<p>It's not just compiled by presidents, but also by provosts and deans. Both of the latter usually end up moving around school, and the deans were, in some instances, professors or researchers at other schools and institutions.</p>

<p>I'm not condoning the PA score, but don't make it sound as if it's one man at the top judging another school.</p>

331

<p>Yeah I knew that. </p>

<p>Its about 2-3 men (per school) at the top judging over 100 schools.</p>

332

<p>"but also by provosts and deans."</p>

<p>True... The provost of SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry probably does know a great deal about the academic merits of The University of Mississippi.</p>

333

<p>Maybe this is naive, and I missed something, and admittedly I have no idea how PA works, but wouldn't these people have agendas of their own when making these assessments? How is this at all objective? And out of curiousity, what schools are they asked to assess, those most like their own?</p>

334

<p>I still want to know who the people are who didn't give Harvard a score of 5..... I bet they're at Yale... :rolleyes:</p>

335

<p>gabriellah,
No interest on starting a another PA war here as we have hashed this out before and I will just agree to disagree with your conclusions about PA and its implications for the college ranking and college search processes. </p>

<p>However, I was intrigued by your correlation of increased selectivity and expectation of higher application numbers at the high PA schools (#309) and your subsequent post (#330) which references a number of schools that have seen large increases in student applications. I hope you are aware than all of the colleges that you reference have comparatively lower PA scores (Tufts, NYU, Boston College, Georgetown). Would it be correct to interpret your comments as the increased selectivity of these schools has not affected the academic climate at these schools and their true worth, as measured by academics, is no better than a decade ago?</p>

336

<p>All of those schools used the popularity of northeast urban locations in cities that were once less attractive (except Boston) to become more selective. Did the faculty and programs really improve that much? Students are just part of the picture.</p>

337

<p>the biggest gripe i have about the PA isn't the flawed methodology (and it is way, way flawed) -- no, the fact that the PA score makes up 25% (a whopping 1/4th!) of the overall score is what is completely crazy.</p>

338

<p>Hawkette...Of course the academic climate has been affected, but not in terms of what PA measures. All of those schools that I spoke about are phenomenal institutions, with fantastic kids. And, in terms of academics, I do agree with you that aside from HYP, the schools at the top are basically on par with one another, to be differentiated only by what seems to fit a particular student's interests best. And even then, we are talking about differences that are probably miniscule. I also agree that the kids at many of the lower PA school are outstanding across the board. For me, however, unlike for you (as I think we have established...LOL), I value PA, highly.</p>

339

<p>
[quote]
I still want to know who the people are who didn't give Harvard a score of 5..... I bet they're at Yale...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, there are a max of three respondents at Yale. :)</p>

<p>Just conjecture, here, but it could be that some academics give Harvard a "4" instead of a "5" because they think their junior faculty hiring practices are less than ideal, or because of knowledge of how politics on campus can effect aspects of the academic climate, or some other insider knowledge that makes them truly and honestly believe Harvard isn't as good as other top schools. </p>

<p>I'm not saying their assessment is justified, or that I necessarily share their feelings. My point is, people do sometimes have reasons to question aspects of a highly-regarded school (look how its leadership was questioned a few years ago!). These reasons, not just envy, might very well lead them to give Harvard a less-than-perfect "distinguished" score.</p>

340

<p>thethoughtprocess:</p>

<p>ok again, if duke's average sat scores dropped and dartmouth and columbia's stayed the same or increased, then duke declines in comparison, you mentioned that penn's decreased also, i have no way to verify this, but for me to be right, penn doesnt need to do better than duke overall, i predicted that columbia and dartmouth would overtake duke this year. (although perhaps dartmouth might not)</p>

<p>with your research site, any study with such large swings in rankings from year to year cannot be a dependable source of research efforts and successes. Research money is a substantial factor in those rankings. Unfortunately, research money hardly has bearing on the college rankings, very important for grad rankings, but the money must translate into research breakthroughs and those must translate into higher PAs. either way, research money by itself is hardly a significant indicator. If you think it is a significant indicator, then it would favor columbia (currently top research univ), more than duke, and it would go towards making me right.</p>

<p>johnny K brought up the alumni giving data, not directly applicable to the usnews rankings it might be, but you too recognized the probability of correlation.</p>

<p>for penn:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.archives.upenn.edu/primdocs/upa/upa1_1/2000to09/20070615fin.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.archives.upenn.edu/primdocs/upa/upa1_1/2000to09/20070615fin.pdf&lt;/a>
(penn's endowment went up by 23% in less than a year, pretty hard to match, recent data)</p>

<p>for columbia:
<a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/20705%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/20705&lt;/a>
($400M from a single undergrad alumus)</p>

<p>"But not everyone wants to spend college in NYC"</p>

<p>clearly not everyone wants to go to school in nyc, but shades of grey here, the number of people who would want to go would increase if the areas around are more happening, safer, aesthetic and accessible. </p>

<p>"NYC getting better might increase the number of apps to Columbia, but thats it"</p>

<p>um...number of apps, doesn't just improve acceptance rate, it has a ripple effect on the other stats of the incoming class, the improving city would also improve yield, again having a ripple effect on the incoming class's stats. and it would attract better professors, don't you think professors worry about their surroundings as much as their research lives? so if you have significantly better students and professors, why wouldn't you have better rankings? </p>

<p>i've heard from many penn grads and current penn students that the areas around penn and in west philly have improved considerably, i'll try and find stats if you really want me to. as for Hanover, i don't know, but dartmouth had many more applicants this year and the year before, can't really be a bad sign.</p>