USNWR 2009: Looking at the Data XVII (Avg. SAT Math Scores & 25/75)

College Search & Selection
1

<p>The publication of the 2009 USNWR College Rankings provides an opportunity to compare schools based on a wide variety of data points. In this and in other threads, I urge the reader to think less about the absolute rankings and more about the nature and value-added of the data point being discussed.</p>

<p>Avg SAT Math , SAT Math 25 - SAT Math 75 , National University</p>

<p>785 , 770 - 800 , Caltech
760 , 720 - 800 , MIT</p>

<p>745 , 700 - 790 , Harvard
745 , 700 - 790 , Princeton
745 , 700 - 790 , Yale
735 , 680 - 790 , Stanford
735 , 680 - 790 , Duke
735 , 690 - 780 , Wash U
730 , 680 - 780 , U Penn
730 , 680 - 780 , Columbia
730 , 680 - 780 , Carnegie Mellon
725 , 670 - 780 , Dartmouth
725 , 680 - 770 , Northwestern
725 , 670 - 780 , Rice</p>

<p>720 , 670 - 770 , Brown
715 , 660 - 770 , Cornell
715 , 660 - 770 , Johns Hopkins
710 , 660 - 760 , U Chicago
710 , 660 - 760 , Notre Dame
705 , 670 - 740 , Tufts
700 , 660 - 740 , Emory
700 , 660 - 740 , Vanderbilt</p>

<p>695 , 630 - 760 , UC Berkeley
695 , 650 - 740 , Georgetown
695 , 650 - 740 , USC
695 , 650 - 740 , Brandeis
690 , 650 - 730 , Georgia Tech
690 , 650 - 730 , Rensselaer
685 , 630 - 740 , U Illinois
680 , 630 - 730 , U Michigan
675 , 610 - 740 , UCLA
675 , 630 - 720 , Boston Coll
675 , 640 - 710 , Lehigh
675 , 630 - 720 , U Rochester</p>

<p>670 , 630 - 710 , Wake Forest
670 , 620 - 720 , NYU
670 , 620 - 720 , Case Western
665 , 610 - 720 , U Virginia
665 , 620 - 710 , W&M
665 , 620 - 710 , U Wisconsin
655 , 610 - 700 , U North Carolina</p>

<p>645 , 590 - 700 , UCSD
635 , 570 - 700 , U Texas
635 , 580 - 690 , U Florida
635 , 590 - 680 , Tulane</p>

<p>620 , 560 - 680 , Yeshiva
615 , 560 - 670 , U Washington
615 , 560 - 670 , UC Irvine
615 , 560 - 670 , Penn State
600 , 540 - 660 , UC Davis
600 , 540 - 660 , UC Santa Barbara</p>

<p>Avg SAT Math , SAT Math 25 - SAT Math 75 , LAC</p>

<p>770 , 740 - 800 , Harvey Mudd</p>

<p>725 , 690 - 760 , Pomona
720 , 680 - 760 , Swarthmore
715 , 670 - 760 , Williams
710 , 660 - 760 , Amherst
700 , 660 - 740 , Carleton
700 , 660 - 740 , Claremont McK</p>

<p>695 , 650 - 740 , Middlebury
695 , 650 - 740 , Wesleyan
690 , 650 - 730 , Bowdoin
690 , 640 - 740 , Haverford
685 , 640 - 730 , Wellesley
685 , 650 - 720 , W&L
680 , 650 - 710 , Vassar
680 , 620 - 740 , Grinnell
680 , 640 - 720 , Hamilton
675 , 640 - 710 , Davidson</p>

<p>670 , 630 - 710 , Colgate
670 , 630 - 710 , Colby
665 , 620 - 710 , Oberlin
665 , 630 - 700 , Bates
665 , 620 - 710 , Macalester</p>

<p>645 , 600 - 690 , US Naval Acad
635 , 580 - 690 , Bryn Mawr</p>

<p>615 , 560 - 670 , Smith
605 , 530 - 680 , US Military Acad</p>

2

<p>Avg SAT Math , SAT Math 25 - SAT Math 75 , National University</p>

<p>785 , 770 - 800 , Caltech
760 , 720 - 800 , Cornell Engineering
760 , 720 - 800 , MIT</p>

<p>745 , 700 - 790 , Harvard
745 , 700 - 790 , Princeton
745 , 700 - 790 , Yale
738 , 690 - 785 , Cornell Arts & Sciences and Engineering
735 , 680 - 790 , Stanford
735 , 680 - 790 , Duke
735 , 690 - 780 , Wash U
730 , 680 - 780 , U Penn
730 , 680 - 780 , Columbia
730 , 680 - 780 , Carnegie Mellon
725 , 670 - 780 , Dartmouth
725 , 680 - 770 , Northwestern
725 , 670 - 780 , Rice</p>

3

<p>^ Ooooh, oooh! I wanna play the same game collegehelp does...separate out Berkeley's CoE math scores too...;)</p>

4

<p>
[quote]
In this and in other threads, I urge the reader to think less about the absolute rankings and more about the nature and value-added of the data point being discussed.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Hawkette: you have gone far afield if you believe the "data point" is a data point. There is absolutely ZERO information that would make it statistically relevant to average the scores. Other than that, carry on.....</p>

<p>But, gotta ask those Cornell alums, under what statistical basis do you break out CAS? Is the Hotel school that big to meaningfully change the numbers? Are the labor geeks in ILR not able to perform well on a standardized test? Puhleeze.....</p>

5

<p>
[quote]
separate out Berkeley's CoE math scores too...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And separate out the engineering majors at all the other colleges.
Then separate out the math and physics majors as well. Report CMU scores for the SCS separately.</p>

<p>Then report whichever figure is higher, and ignore the other students.</p>

<p>It is an AVERAGE. It reflects the scores of ALL the students at a college. Of course the engineers will tend to be higher on math scores. Of course colleges with high proportion of engineering and hard science majors will have higher averages.</p>

6

<p>


</p>

<p>Quite correct. It is always an error to average the 25th percentile score level and the 75th percentile score level to guess the mean score level of the whole student population, because we know nothing about the distribution of the scores in between those two percentiles. Although U.S. News has often made this same error, and so have some other publications, that's no reason to imitate the error. In fact, we do not know what the mean scores are at most colleges because NACAC actively discourages colleges from publishing mean scores (because mean scores are very often misinterpreted by applicants and their parents, and by people who post on CC). Each college has data at hand to know what the mean score is of students at that college, if it cares to calculate that, but no college knows what the correct mean score is for the other colleges around the country.</p>

7

<p>The term "average" has a pretty broad meaning and I don't think it is incorrect here. "Average" is simply a number that somehow typifies the central tendency of a group of numbers. "Midpoint" might be a better term but "average" is not incorrect. "Average" is not necessarily the arithmetic mean.</p>

8

<p>At Cornell, the specialty colleges like Hotel, Industrial and Labor Relations, Agriculture, Architecture are the best of their kind in the world but SAT scores are not as relevant in admissions. The Cornell Engineering math SATs allow a more valid comparison with Caltech, MIT Carnegie Mellon and other tech schools. The Cornell Arts and Sciences/Engineering SATs allow a more valid comparison with schools like Princeton, Stanford, and Duke. Its good information.</p>

<p>For students applying to Cornell Engineering and Arts and Sciences, the SATs in those colleges are useful information. I posted for the benefit of prospective students.</p>

9

<p>Allow me to repeat myself: </p>

<p>
[quote]
In fact, we do not know what the mean scores are at most colleges because NACAC actively discourages colleges from publishing mean scores (because mean scores are very often misinterpreted by applicants and their parents, and by people who post on CC).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So posting midpoint, mean, average, whatever-you-call-it scores is misleading to readers, because in fact we have no basis for knowing what those scores are and whether they reflect the reality of the score distribution at that college.</p>

10

<p>"At Cornell, the specialty colleges like Hotel, Industrial and Labor Relations, Agriculture, Architecture are the best of their kind in the world but SAT scores are not as relevant in admissions. "</p>

<p>I've heard this argument thrown out a lot. Please show me some sources that support the different usage of SAT scores across the colleges. I tend to think that the SAT scores are lower for those colleges simply because the applicant pools are weaker.</p>

11

<p>hallowarts-
Sources? Why do you need a source to tell you that it makes sense to distinguish among colleges that differ by 80 SAT points? The "source" is known as the "brain".</p>

<p>The specialty schools at Cornell attract the best students in their respective fields. They are the highest rated programs in their fields.</p>

12

<p>"The specialty schools at Cornell attract the best students in their respective fields."</p>

<p>I was not disputing whether or not the specialized schools are the best in their fields. I am questioning your assertion that the SAT's don't play as large a role in those schools' admission. </p>

<p>How exactly are you able to tell which students are the best in the fields of agriculture,industrial relations, etc. at the age of 17?</p>

<p>Without sources to suggest otherwise, one can only assume that the SAT's play an equal role in all the colleges. The specialized schools simply have an academically weaker student body.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
^ Ooooh, oooh! I wanna play the same game collegehelp does...separate out Berkeley's CoE math scores too...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I do not think that "playing the game" is a bad idea at all, especially when considering the introduction of specialty schools for ... informational purposes. I believe it is important for potential applicants at schools such as Cornell to understand their relevant admission numbers. </p>

<p>The small bit of gamesmanship is excusable. Cornell engineering should be proud of the selectivity of its SAT numbers, and Columbia can continue to segregate its admission ratios to claim a title that is only important to them. :)</p>

14

<p>collegehelp,</p>

<p>I think your info is useful. But pardon me for being technically annal- in calculating the SAT range, you should adjust for the schools size. Cornell's Arts & Sciences is 50% larger than its Engineering. For those who wonder how collegehelp got the numbers, here are the stats broken down by the two colleges:
Cornell's arts and sci: 660 - 770
Engineering: 720 - 800
Instead of taking the midpoint, it should be more like 1/3 of the way (skewed to the arts and sciences and the combined range should be more like ~680-780).</p>

15

<p>
[quote]
in calculating the SAT range, you should adjust for the schools size.

[/quote]

Exactly. Larger student populations should trend toward the national average.</p>

16

<p>I agree with posts #4, #14 & #15. And, like most everyone else, am concerned that specialty schools CalTech & Harvey Mudd are included with rankings for Nat'l Univs. & LACs since both schools have 870 undergrads or less. They should be broken out in a separate ranking of engineering schools/depts.
My preference in making rankings based on mid-range SAT score students is to focus on the 25th percentile figures.</p>

17

<p>^^--^^</p>

<p>
[quote]
They should be broken out in a separate ranking of engineering schools/depts.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So, you would include the engineering departments of large universities but exclude Caltech from whatever list they belong to and exclude Harvey Mudd from a list of ... LACs? </p>

<p>And, if I may ask, what would the purpose of such exclusions be? And, before answering, please consider that the SAT scores reported by Harvey Mudd comprise the entire realm of the college, up to its last student.</p>

18

<p>coldwind,
LOL that you like to see the scores sorted by 25th percentile. In the thread for Critical Reading, another poster indicated they thought that 75th percentile was the best way to compare. For both of you here are the results sorted by 25th and 75th percentile:</p>

<p>SAT Math 25 , National University</p>

<p>770 , Caltech</p>

<p>720 , MIT
700 , Harvard
700 , Princeton
700 , Yale</p>

<p>690 , Wash U
680 , Stanford
680 , U Penn
680 , Columbia
680 , Duke
680 , Northwestern
680 , Carnegie Mellon</p>

<p>670 , Dartmouth
670 , Brown
670 , Rice
670 , Tufts
660 , U Chicago
660 , Cornell
660 , Johns Hopkins
660 , Emory
660 , Vanderbilt
660 , Notre Dame
650 , Georgetown
650 , USC
650 , Brandeis
650 , Georgia Tech
650 , Rensselaer</p>

<p>640 , Lehigh
630 , UC Berkeley
630 , U Michigan
630 , Wake Forest
630 , Boston Coll
630 , U Rochester
630 , U Illinois</p>

<p>620 , W&M
620 , NYU
620 , U Wisconsin
620 , Case Western
610 , U Virginia
610 , UCLA
610 , U North Carolina</p>

<p>590 , UCSD
590 , Tulane
580 , U Florida</p>

<p>570 , U Texas
560 , U Washington
560 , UC Irvine
560 , Penn State
560 , Yeshiva</p>

<p>540 , UC Davis
540 , UC Santa Barbara</p>

<p>SAT Math 25 , LAC</p>

<p>740 , Harvey Mudd</p>

<p>690 , Pomona
680 , Swarthmore</p>

<p>670 , Williams
660 , Amherst
660 , Carleton
660 , Claremont McK
650 , Middlebury
650 , Bowdoin
650 , Vassar
650 , Wesleyan
650 , W&L</p>

<p>640 , Wellesley
640 , Davidson
640 , Haverford
640 , Hamilton
630 , Colgate
630 , Colby
630 , Bates</p>

<p>620 , Grinnell
620 , Oberlin
620 , Macalester
600 , US Naval Acad</p>

<p>580 , Bryn Mawr
560 , Smith</p>

<p>530 , US Military Acad</p>

<p>and here it is sorted by 75th percentile</p>

<p>SAT Math 75 , National University</p>

<p>800 , MIT
800 , Caltech
790 , Harvard
790 , Princeton
790 , Yale
790 , Stanford
790 , Duke
780 , U Penn
780 , Columbia
780 , Dartmouth
780 , Wash U
780 , Rice
780 , Carnegie Mellon</p>

<p>770 , Northwestern
770 , Cornell
770 , Johns Hopkins
770 , Brown
760 , U Chicago
760 , Notre Dame
760 , UC Berkeley</p>

<p>740 , Emory
740 , Vanderbilt
740 , Georgetown
740 , UCLA
740 , USC
740 , Tufts
740 , Brandeis
740 , U Illinois
730 , U Michigan
730 , Georgia Tech
730 , Rensselaer</p>

<p>720 , U Virginia
720 , NYU
720 , Boston Coll
720 , U Rochester
720 , Case Western
710 , Wake Forest
710 , W&M
710 , Lehigh
710 , U Wisconsin
700 , U North Carolina
700 , UCSD
700 , U Texas</p>

<p>690 , U Florida
680 , Yeshiva
680 , Tulane</p>

<p>670 , U Washington
670 , UC Irvine
670 , Penn State
660 , UC Davis
660 , UC Santa Barbara</p>

<p>SAT Math 75 , LAC</p>

<p>800 , Harvey Mudd</p>

<p>760 , Amherst
760 , Williams
760 , Swarthmore
760 , Pomona</p>

<p>740 , Middlebury
740 , Carleton
740 , Haverford
740 , Claremont McK
740 , Wesleyan
740 , Grinnell
730 , Wellesley
730 , Bowdoin</p>

<p>720 , W&L
720 , Hamilton
710 , Davidson
710 , Vassar
710 , Colgate
710 , Oberlin
710 , Colby
710 , Macalester
700 , Bates</p>

<p>690 , US Naval Acad
690 , Bryn Mawr
680 , US Military Acad</p>

<p>670 , Smith</p>

19

<p>hallowarts-
Students attracted to the specialty schools at Cornell have different passions and aptitudes than mainstream academia. Admissions officers look for special talents, experience, and evidence of commitment. I know this from speaking with students in these colleges. It is common knowledge at Cornell. Yet they are the best in the sense that they show the greatest promise for success in those special fields.</p>

<p>They are "academically inferior" in the same sense that the music students at Julliard and the art students at RISD and the communications students at Northwestern are academically inferior.</p>

20

<p>It would be more interesting and valid to compare schools on SAT scores according to discipline. That information isn't readily available.</p>

<p>But, breaking out some of the outlier colleges is an improvement.</p>

<p>Other specialized colleges that come to mind are Nursing at Penn and JHU and Education at Vanderbilt. What are some others?</p>