I am just relaying what an admin officer told me, I think at Cornell, about the essay making a difference. What do you do when 50% of your applications are perfect test scores and grades and all 5’s on AP tests. They don’t have space for everyone like that. My oldest had a perfect SAT math score, near perfect SAT, 36 ACT, 800 Math II subject test, 800 Chemistry subject test, all 5’s on AP tests, salutatorian, many leadership EC’s. He wasn’t admitted to every engineering school he applied to, they can’t go just by numbers. My point was that so many people are quoting Test scores and GPA’s and saying their kid should have been admitted but too many kids have great numbers so they have to look at other things on their application like essay and recommendations.
I was admitted during RD this year and by no means was I a perfect student. I didn’t have the perfect ACT, all 5’s on APs, or even a great SAT score. I wasn’t even a top student in my class. I thought that what got me in was my supplemental essays. They really allowed me to show a side of myself I never really express and I think my writing really helped that. Feel free to PM me if you would like to know anything!
AOs can tell if an essay was written by a student in many cases. It’s not the language, or the polish even. Often, it’s the diction. I can look at a memo or email, and without looking at the author usually can pin down the general age of the writer. The great outside college counselors understand this, and allow their students’ voices to come through. They basically help sand down the rough edges, but don’t change the underlying wood.
Our D would write her essays, and it took every single ounce of effort not to go in there and start whacking some things apart. Sometimes we’d suggest a change or two, and she’d tell us how it didn’t sound like her.
I couldn’t write like a teenager, for a multitude of reasons. A good AO can probably see through that.
Congratulations and enjoy your time at UVA, it is a great community.
I would rather that AOs do not practice this “essay astrology” with so limited information and time available and focus on years worth of data on the transcripts, school rigor, etc. The latter provides more holistic view of the student than the essay that may or may not have been written by the student.
Question for those accepted - when does the school send follow up materials?
Never mind. Came today.
This proves that test-optional is a dead end.
Q&A: Stuart Schmill on MIT’s decision to reinstate the SAT/ACT requirement
Standardized tests help the Institute’s admissions team identify and assess students from all backgrounds, says MIT’s dean of admissions and student financial services.
MIT is rather different in that all students take a heavy dose of math. All students, regardless of major, are required to take advanced Calculus and Physics, so it’s not surprising that scores on the math section of the SAT would be a good predictor of a student’s success at MIT. Maybe this would also apply at engineering schools, but there is plenty of counter data that shows SAT test scores are not a good predictor of success in college. I could see test optional going away for some specific programs that are math heavy, but otherwise test-optional is here to stay
I don’t see why UVA is different from MIT. SAT/ACT also includes reading/writing skills tests, not only math. Both are essential to the success of a college education. To the underrepresented population, standard tests may be more cost-efficient to demonstrate their capabilities because many EC’s require much more sources (time and money). Taking SAT/ACT tests at least proves the students are willing to put effort to be successful.
From the article:
"In short: Our research has shown that, in most cases, we cannot reliably predict students will do well at MIT unless we consider standardized test results alongside grades, coursework, and other factors. These findings are statistically robust and stable over time, and hold when you control for socioeconomic factors and look across demographic groups. "
There is also plenty of research showing that GPA is a better predictor of college success than test scores. Test scores can still be used as a signal along with other signals like teacher recommendations and essays. But they are unreliable at best, and highly biased towards affluence at worst, to be the major part of admissions except in some circumstances, like MIT, where math proficiency is what they are looking for. That’s a small percentage of overall college applications to places like MIT and some other engineering schools.
High-school GPAs might be stronger indicators of college readiness because they measure a wider variety of skills—including effort over an entire semester in many different types of classes, and demonstration of academic skills through multiple formats. On the other hand, standardized tests measure a smaller set of skills, and students can prepare for these tests in narrow ways that may not translate into better preparation to succeed in college.
MIT is not only an engineering school. It is a comprehensive university.
" While MIT is perhaps best known for its programs in engineering and the physical sciences , other areas—notably economics, political science, urban studies, linguistics, and philosophy—are also strong."
I don’t object to GPA being a good indicator of college success, but as others mentioned, an inflated GPA has become an issue to evaluate students’ success. We are not evaluating an individual’s personal progress but comparing the individual against others. These are two separate issues.
Thanks for posting the studies- I haven’t read them yet- but do they come to the conclusion that GPA is a better predictor than GPA + Testing?. Because that is the question at hand. And how do you distinguish across a thousands of 3.9s and 4.0s?
Basically, yes - says GPA is better predictor of success in college.
Which makes sense IF the college has the same type of rigor as the high school the student came from. High GPA students know how to manage time and study effectively, which will give them a boost in college.
But, my nephew is a 4.0 GPA kid (HS junior) in Tennessee, and just scored a 19 on the ACT.
Test optional, he would look like a great candidate at any school, but he would obviously flounder at UVA, UNC, etc., because his test scores indicate he just doesn’t grasp a lot of the higher level concepts. These universities don’t want their freshman dropout rate to spike, so I’m guessing/hoping the AOs have ways to figure out who could actually thrive at their school.
Test optional is a back door way for colleges to maintain their statistics for ranking and “holistically” form a class. GPA might very well portend success better than test scores, but I have heard multiple admins say that BOTH can be used effectively to great benefit. They’re looking for multiple ways to analyze a candidate. GPA is not consistent across the country- not even close.
Does an applicant who received a C- in freshman physics deserve to be rejected from Harvard if he otherwise got straight A’s? I don’t know. Maybe the teacher was a coach and didn’t like the student’s father. Maybe the kid had never been introduced to physics before, received D’s the first two marking periods, and then rebounded to B’s to bring the grade up.
How is that different than a kid scoring a 19 ACT? As the post above suggests, a 19 ACT means that there are aspects of the curriculum of a competitive college that are going to be VERY challenging for that student. Should a 31 be distinguishable from a 35? Now, THAT’s the argument to make.
I feel a solution should almost be to place SAT and ACT into categories. Anything over 1350 or 30/31 should be considered “high range” where a college only sees the range and not the score. Then create a middle and bottom. That way the kids getting into the highly ranked school have a grasp. I would argue that a 19 or a 1250 is going to get hammered at UVA, and shouldn’t take the spot of a student more able to compete.
AOs have the historical data from different high schools. They know where a 4.0 at one high school is relative to another high school because they know the GPAs of previous students from those schools and how they did in college. That’s why AOs are regional and get to know the high schools in their region.
There are over 24,000 public high schools in America. And then add to that all kinds of private schools too. AOs are good, but not sure they can truly understand every high school in this country. I have a D at UVA coming from a very competitive high school in NoVa - she loves UVA and is thriving in her classes - no problems at all; but, she knows students from other schools (private, out of state, etc) that are really struggling (having to repeat courses for their majors). I am not an expert, but from what I am seeing, I am not super confident in UVA’s grasp on every high school in the US or abroad. And, this D was admitted while they still were using testing as a reference point. My other D (with almost identical stats/courses/test scores to her sister) was waitlisted this year. Pretty sure she would have aced it at UVA as her sister has, but, hey, it was their call to make. Will be super interesting to see how UVA’s class of 2026 fairs. 
Hopefully Sister22 kills it where ever she chooses to go.
I agree somewhat–but a 19 vs a 1250 are very different. The 25th %ile on the pre TO CDS is 1340-1500 vs ACT of 30-34. The 19 is a much lower %ile and a huge outlier, whereas the 1250 is close enough to be reasonably similar to the average student.
One C in one class with the rest of the courses mostly As and honors level is just not the same level of concerning as a 19 with a 4.0uw
My DD is defeated (as am I). Waitlist from EA deferral OOS at UVA. But… deferred ED from Duke (legacy) that will certainly be rejection; deferred ED2 Vandy to rejection; waitlist EA Michigan; rejected Wash U and Emory!
ACT 35, 5.0 all As with lots of APs and like everyone’s kids 4yr varsity athlete, leadership, etc. her choices now were ones she had little interest- Maryland honors or Lehigh.
I wish I could understand how this system will ever get fixed. This year was about if you fit a demographic- state, ethnicity, international???