VADM Fowler and RADM (sel) Klunder: Why Being a Mid is Worthwhile

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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<p>They are already disillusioned and embittered. Care to guess what recent unpunished drug-using football player’s case is at the center of their disillusionment and embitterment? :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>Rotflmao. Seriously. Tell us all again about “Zero Tolerance” and what it means. Go up a few posts and read all about how the other academies handle drug-using cadets. They punish them, they don’t coddle them like the USNA does, ignoring their crimes so the football team can be competitive. </p>

<p>The crime is drug use, and the punishment is separation. Unless you can rush for 7.3 yds/per carry for Navy.</p>

<p>What a joke. </p>

<p>Honor? lol. :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>One size fits all [as described] does seem a bit . . . unusual. Are you sure this is how you care to describe it?
Despite the protestations of others, the fact remains that JUDGMENT is a lynchpin of American justice. Reasoned judgment–as opposed to mindless ranting and raving as is frequently present herein–calls for an evaluation of the facts and circumstances. That sometimes leads a reasoned judge to impose a punishment that is less than the unruly mob wants. They used to call them “lynch mobs” for a reason.</p>

<p>Tell us that your words were inartfully chosen and that there remains some consideration of the facts [surely the various levels of honor infractions come into play] before the entire “blue plate” special is forced upon an accused. [Level 100 punished the same as a level 600?]</p>

<p>Administrative hearings can be a tough call for an accused: find me not guilty on the initial charge and then find me guilty on “not cooperating” with the investigation.</p>

<p>Life goes on.</p>

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<p>Just to clarify, the “blue plate special” is given to ALL offenses. Those are the minimums. Higher punishments can be given with Commandant or Superintendent recommendation. After a period of 3 months, the Remediation officer can adjust the sanctions depending on how the remediation is progressing, but the loss of leave and privileges will remain for 6 months. Remember, under this system, remediation is an OPPORTUNITY to improve. If you are LUCKY enough to get the OPPORTUNITY, then it should be embraced.</p>

<p>The mids coming in need to know that there is an expectation here. The Commandant is an advocate of “right full rudder” as he says and he is pushing for all 1/c and 2/c to be separated for any offense after 2 for 7’s. I suspect that the Brigade will not agree on this, but it at least shows that the Commandant is not the one pushing back on the harsher punishments. Remember, this is the honor concept that the honor congress has proposed during their meetings. The staff supports it, but the “blue plate special” was proposed by the 120+ member honor congress, the decision body by which changes to the honor concept are made.</p>

<p>Any honor system not proposed by the Brigade itself will fail. Mids have to feel like they detest dishonorable acts before we can fully expect to cultivate honor in everyone. This culture shift of harshness, consistency, and opportunity will result in a positive culture shift of honor at the Academy.</p>

<p>All, I’m the MOOW today, and an exchange cadet from West Point and I talked for about 2 hours today while on watch. It’s embarassing to know that they have a core set of ideals that works for them, and I have to sit here and justify our concept knowing full well that it currently is not what it should be. These changes will help establish the minimum expectations of what we all thought USNA would be. People only get disappointed when they see that the expectations are not as high as they thought they would be.</p>

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<p>Does mombee keep PM’ing anyone else with bizarre messages…or am I the just the lucky one? Can I block him?</p>

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<p>I guess I’ll weigh in as one of those WP grads who feels not that those standards are too high, but still too low. Yes, when I was there it was cut and dried. Blue plate special. Expulsion for honor. No 6 months of whatever crap. No “oh, you had to learn from your mistakes” garbage. I don’t think being honorable and not lying, cheating or stealing are all that tough. Yes, a new cadet during Beast giving the wrong answer under stress might get cut some slack, but no one after that. There was no possibility of clemency based on the “severity” of the offense. And I never, ever believed anyone would not turn someone in to avoid that penalty. Probably comes from the toleration clause (and the risk to yourself if you didn’t), but honor was not something you messed with. That’s why I have such a hard time with this whole “remediation” business. Am I overly harsh? Not in my opinion - you’re either honorable or you’re not. If you’re not, you don’t belong at an academy. Period.</p>

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<p>Opportunity to improve is a wonderful thing.
The extremes to how you wish to accomplish this is the issue.</p>

<p>Sometimes it is the decompression from the environment, getting support from family, getting support from fellow midshipmen is what is needed.
Your “blue plate special” would deny them all of the above.</p>

<p>And has it occured to you, just once, the TOLL this takes on families who will be DENIED HAVING THEIR MID AT HOME? DO YOU CONSIDER, EVER, THE IMPACT ON THAT DECISION???</p>

<p>So do tell us how these blue-plates are treated when this happens. Are they supported?? Are they EVER given a chance to start over with a reasonable chance of success???</p>

<p>Because this is what I have seen.
I have seen said-offenders “shunned” by their classmates.
NO offers of assistance.
NO support.
THEY WANT THEM TO FAIL.
THEY RELISH THE DRAMA.
THEY SAY GOOD FOR HIM, GOOD FOR HER, SEE HOW MUCH BETTER I AM [are you? chances are GOOD you have just not been caught yet]
And it is very clear THEY think you are pond-scum and need to be OUT of there.
They do not lift ONE FINGER TO SUPPORT, HELP, FORGIVE and forget about FORGETTING.
It haunts you the rest of your stay at the academy.
And when you find those RARE MIDSHIPMEN, who step up and support, THOSE are the FEW amonst you that are TRULY HONERABLE.</p>

<p>What to know what else I have seen?
I have seen Mids ARRESTED for shoplifting from midstore and NEX, then given a reprieve because “Dad” is a mucky-muck in the NAVY, and THEN they have the audicity to report others for the most minor of infractions, with so much spin that the “alleged offense” becomes unrecognizable. WHERE IS THE HONOR IN THAT? And will your holier-than-thou honor board take THAT background into consideration when vetting the credibility of the one pointing the finger???</p>

<p>And where is the “honor” in shipmates who tell you to your face that they will stand up to support you, and then fail to do that??? IS THAT HONORABLE??? </p>

<p>You ASSUME the brigade is mature enough to report and administer this objectively, when the harsh reality is that there are PLENTY of immature, jealous, intolerant, IGNORANT KIDS hiding under a cover at the academy. PLENTY. YOU ARE ALL WORKS IN PROGRESS. YOU ARE ALL ON THE JOURNEY TO LEARN HOW TO LIVE AN HONORABLE LIFE. And you ALL come to that place from DIFFERENT STARTING POINTS, with DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS, DIFFERENT VALUES, and DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES. And once you understand THAT, you will recognize the FLAWS in what you are doing with your blue-plate-one-size-fits-all-special is nothing but INTOLERABLE INTOLERANCE.</p>

<p>You have failed to answer my questions.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Will an accused MID be given an opportunity to speak to a JAG PRIOR TO GIVING ANY STATEMENTS, EITHER VERBALLY OR IN WRITING</p></li>
<li><p>Will he accused Mid be given the RIGHT TO HAVE LEGAL REPRESENTATION OF THEIR CHOOSING AT ALL LEVELS OF THE HONOR BOARD.</p></li>
<li><p>Will the charges be reviewed to ASSURE there is NO DUPLICATION, no over-lapping and double-dipping when multiple charges are piled up on each other? </p></li>
</ol>

<p>As for “automatic seperation of 2/c and 1/c”…
as a TAXPAYER PAYING FOR YOUR EDUCATION, you bet I want to know that ALL CASES BE EXAMINED ON THEIR OWN MERRIT, AND DEALT WILL ACCORDINGLY. </p>

<p>The PROBLEM with ONE SIZE FITS ALL is that IT RARELY FITS ANYONE.
AND MAY GOD PROTECT YOU AND YOURS FROM THE WEB YOU WEAVE.</p>

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<p>Guest Column: Academy’s Honor Concept strays from roots
[Academy’s</a> Honor Concept strays from roots](<a href=“Real Estate – Capital Gazette”>Real Estate – Capital Gazette)
By ENSIGN STEVEN E. SHAW,
For The Capital
02/21/2010</p>

<p>On Nov. 1, The Sunday Capital published a special report about the honor system at the Naval Academy.</p>

<p>One week later, the Naval Academy came under scrutiny when reports surfaced that two midshipmen on the color guard at the World Series had been replaced at the last minute. More recently, the superintendent was criticized for retaining a midshipman who reportedly failed a drug test.</p>

<p>In each of these cases, the standards of honor at the Naval Academy were called into question, and yet, despite all of this attention, no one is addressing the underlying issues.</p>

<p>The Naval Academy’s honor system is based on what is called the “Honor Concept.” Every midshipman learns that both the Honor Concept and the administrative system for processing reported honor violations were created in 1951 by then Midshipman H. Ross Perot.</p>

<p>The system, as created, was based on a set of broad, undefined principles intended to guide midshipmen to adopting a strong set of ethical values, not force them to comply through fear of punishment. It is often stated that the midshipmen “own” the Honor Concept and are responsible for its implementation and enforcement.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, the only similarities between the Honor Concept today and the system created in 1951 are in the way it is talked about. Otherwise, the current system bears no resemblance to what was originally created.</p>

<p>The role midshipmen have in the establishment or enforcement of the standards is very small, and the only method used to develop strong ethical values in the Brigade hinges on the deterrence of specifically defined acts through the threat of punishment.</p>

<p>Yet, the same terminology used in 1951 continues to be used to describe the honor system. The confusion and misunderstanding that arises from this situation leads to numerous other problems while simultaneously preventing anyone from being able to identify them.</p>

<p>Throughout the past several decades, graduates of the Naval Academy have come to believe that as long as the administrative aspects of the honor system were functioning properly, the Brigade’s standards of honor were high. As a result, there is hardly any active involvement or participation by the Naval Academy leadership in maintaining high moral and ethical standards. This has created an environment where the topic of honor is not taken very seriously.</p>

<p>Nothing can be done to uphold or improve the standards of honor in the Brigade without an in-depth understanding of the Honor Concept’s structure and purpose.</p>

<p>I have compiled four years of research in a study that is intended to serve as a starting point for anyone interested in this topic, and it can be found at [Guest</a> Column: Naval Academy Honor Concept strays from roots • Opinion (<a href=“http://www.HometownAnnapolis.com”>www.HometownAnnapolis.com</a> - The Capital)](<a href=“http://www.hometownannapolis.com/news/opn/2010/02/21-01/.html]Guest”>Real Estate – Capital Gazette).</p>

<p>An excerpt from the report:</p>

<p>“Over the past several years the United States Naval Academy has come under increasing scrutiny concerning its honor system and its efforts to instill strong ethical values in midshipmen. This scrutiny is not unfounded, however, because the current honor system is plagued with longstanding problems due to the inconsistency between how the honor system is structured, explained, and enforced. This inconsistent message cannot help but foster little respect by the Academy as a whole regarding the standards the system is supposed to establish.”</p>

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<p>“Lucky” you! :rolleyes: A direct line to the palace? :cool: Nah, just co-opting Glenn Beck’s “hot” line to the WH …it’s always free. :confused:</p>

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<p>And so it was that Tweety Pie ko-wektwee noted, “Dis could be vewwyy, vewwy big twubble!” :eek:</p>

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<p>Nothing bizarre, no one in “vewwyy, vewwy big twubble”. As the subject of libel from UDMom on this thread I was simply attempting, unsuccessfully, I assume, to correct her misconception. Rather dumb on my part, I might add. How can one argue the inappropriateness of libel and slander on a thread where her entire argument is based on the same? </p>

<p>However, speaking of bizarre, how, on a forum dedicated to helping potential candidates make informed decisions about the SAs, can someone whose sole tie to USNA appears to be that her daughter dates a mid, who has posted her impressions of USNA recently on another thread as follows, contribute to the mission of this forum?</p>

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<p>I just finished reading ENS Shaw’s column. Very nicely written, but I think he oversteps the role of the Honor Committee in the moral/ethical development of Midshipmen at USNA.</p>

<p>I guess where I differ from him is that I never thought it was the Honor Committee’s job to instill moral/ethical values in Midshipmen. The Superintendent and Commandant of the Naval Academy are meant to be doing that through education and training. Midshipmen also learn through the experiences of dealing with those situations when they arise. The place is a 4-year “teachable moment” for all kinds of learning, not just in the classroom.</p>

<p>The analogy I might use is that it’s the courts’ job to use the law to prosecute and punish criminals. Conversely, it’s not the courts’ remit to instill the values that people need to keep themselves out of court and jail. That’s the province of families, schools and religious/social organizations to imbue in children and young adults the values that ensure they comply voluntarily because it’s the right thing to do, not for fear of punishment. Having said that, there needs to be punishment, and I (for one) believe that punishment is a deterrent in a lot of instances.</p>

<p>As a three year member of the Honor Committee at USNA in the early 80’s, I never figured that my job as company Honor Rep was to be the sole voice of what honor and integrity meant at the Naval Academy. I saw (and still do) see that as the responsibility of every Midshipman, Senior Enlisted Leader (we didn’t have those when I was there), Officer and Faculty Member at USNA.</p>

<p>Talking about honor and integrity to me is kind of like trying to describe love, or art, or pornography. You know it when you see it, but trying to codify it and determine what it is and is not is very, very difficult. Sometimes, it’s black and white; more often, in my experience, it’s situational.</p>

<p>I was asked on occasion to do things in the Fleet by senior officers that I felt were not “all the way right.” I had two choices, of course. I could argue the moral high ground and get branded as a Sea Lawyer or someone who couldn’t follow orders, or I could follow the words of the Laws of the Navy and trust that my superiors had the “big picture” that I didn’t have. </p>

<p>“Canst follow the track of the dolphin or tell where the sea swallows roam? Where leviathan taketh his pastime? What ocean he calleth his own? Even so with the words of thy Rulers, and the orders those words shall convey. Every law is naught beside this one - ‘Thou shalt not criticise but obey!’ Saith the wise, ‘How may I know their purpose?’ Then acts without wherefore or why; Stays the fool but one moment to question, and the chance of his life passeth by.”</p>

<p>So, I guess it all boils down to this for me. I am the parent of two current Mids, and I worked really hard to instill in them the values that would make them good people - irrespective of whether they went to USNA or not. They could probably still tell you the answer to this question - “What does daddy hate?” Answer: “Lying, and especially lying to get out of trouble.” And the corollary to that, “Life is about making good choices - especially when no one is looking.” </p>

<p>I’m not looking for pats on the back, but those are the kind of values we need in leaders in all walks of life, not just the military. Not every kid is going to have those kinds of values growing up, and we can teach kids the values we expect from them as future leaders of our Navy and USMC. It’s just a little harder to do in an age where we are bombarded with stories of really successful people who are caught doing all kinds of really bad things. Cigars, blue dresses, Ponzi schemes, cheating on spouses and all kinds of other examples - any of those resonate? :slight_smile: - that teach kids to be cynical despite our best efforts to teach them to live by the words of the famous John Paul Jones (himself a fugitive for murder, BTW):</p>

<p>“In one word, every commander should keep constantly before him the great truth, that to be well obeyed, he must be perfectly esteemed.”</p>

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<p>^^^ great post.</p>

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<p>84…your great apologetic nails the essence of this issue in your last quote which cuts to the quick …</p>

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<p>Life insurance is sold, not bought. The seller is most often more critical than the product or company.</p>

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<p>Post # 17, this thread:

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<p>Again on post # 92, all CAPS for emphasis:

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<p>The basis of his argument that marijuana cannot be accidentally ingested.</p>

<p>Friday’s WP:
[url=<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/26/AR2010022605668.html?waporef=obinsite]washingtonpost.com[/url”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/26/AR2010022605668.html?waporef=obinsite]washingtonpost.com[/url</a>]</p>

<p>An exerpt:

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<p>Luigi, get thee to Vancouver. Your logic skills are sorely needed.</p>

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<p>I’m confused …again, still. :confused:</p>

<p>Are we to conclude then …

  1. We should be laughing @ the vision of this Mid sharing a blunt?</p>

<ol>
<li><p>The Admiral was laughing?</p></li>
<li><p>The young lad was celebrating w/ teammates?</p></li>
<li><p>He hopes to get into figure skating and make the Olympic team that he might “accidentally ingest” some undetected ganja?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I’m so confused …:cool: But confident an expanded explanation will sort this all out. ;)</p>

<p>But one thing is becoming eminently clear …we’re grasping insight to what it means to “go down with the ship.”</p>

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<p>Notice to mombee about his knowledge of what sharing a cigar means:</p>

<p>Sharing a cigar means you each have your OWN CIGAR, you don’t pass around a single cigar.</p>

<p>Go ahead, find the picture and read the caption - you’ll see they each have their own cigar! No one is passing around cigar! “Sharing” does not mean smoking the same one! (Unless you are sharing a blunt or a joint or some other marijuana-filled device at the US Naval Academy).</p>

<p>Look at the picture and re=read the caption again:</p>

<p><a href=“http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20100226/capt.87ed62f3a67743deb2df2103b4e2b913.aptopix_vancouver_olympics_ice_hockey_olywh231.jpg?x=400&y=284&q=85&sig=INh2GtU7oNObI.Q9LJXwwA--[/url]”>http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20100226/capt.87ed62f3a67743deb2df2103b4e2b913.aptopix_vancouver_olympics_ice_hockey_olywh231.jpg?x=400&y=284&q=85&sig=INh2GtU7oNObI.Q9LJXwwA--&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Canada’s Haley Irwin (21) and Meghan Agosta (2) celebrate with cigars after Canada beat USA 2-0 to win the women’s gold medal ice hockey game at the Vancouver 2010 Olympics in Vancouver, British Columbia, Thursday, Feb. 25, 2010. (AP Photo)</p>

<p>Notice the word “cigars” that ends with an “s”? That indicates it’s a plural noun. Meaning more than one. Not “cigar” (singular) but cigars (plural).</p>

<p>Here’s another picture:</p>

<p>[Across</a> Web, many defend Canadian women’s carousing - Connecticut Post](<a href=“http://www.ctpost.com/default/article/Across-Web-many-defend-Canadian-women-s-carousing-383054.php]Across”>http://www.ctpost.com/default/article/Across-Web-many-defend-Canadian-women-s-carousing-383054.php)</p>

<p>Read the caption:</p>

<p>Canada’s Meghan Agosta (2) and Jayna Hefford (16) celebrate with cigars after Canada beat USA 2-0 to win the women’s gold medal ice hockey game at the Vancouver 2010 Olympics in Vancouver, British Columbia, Thursday, Feb. 25, 2010. Photo: Chris O’Meara / AP</p>

<p>(Everyone else, stop laughing at how naive mombee is).</p>

<p>mombee, your comprehension about how cigars are used makes you look more foolish with every post. Your credibility on the subject is already at zero, the incompetence hole you continue to dig gets deeper and deeper.</p>

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<p>ROTFLMAO. Of all the possible ways to weasel out of this one, I never thought you would challenge Webster on the definition of either ‘share’ or ‘a’. The writer was there. The captions were probably written back in the home studio. Please blow up the picture. One cigar only. It is in Irwin’s hand and smoke is coming out of Agosta’s mouth.</p>

<p>Nice try. Oh, wait. Since it is quasi-legal in Vancouver, I bet they “are sharing a blunt or a joint or some other marijuana-filled device”. LOL</p>

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<p>Why do people on this board feel the need to bicker over the stupidest of details?</p>

<p>It’s like somehow winning the arguement here over the definition of a word which has multiple definitions will add some kind of street cred worth only on this internet, wait let me say that again, internet forum. </p>

<p>yeesh, great example the “bases of knowledge” for potential applicants to USNA are showing…</p>

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<p>Whatever you wish to believe to support a drug-using 7.3 yards-per-carry football player, go ahead, “mombee.” </p>

<p>The hole you dig gets deeper and deeper with every post. </p>

<p>(psst - We’re all laughing AT you, not WITH you.)</p>

<p>You may wish to go back to using “USNA69” as your screen name, as the name “mombee” has been discredited so many times by so many different people here, it’s now a farce, it has no credibility. Not that USNA69 had any more, but I can’t remember you supporting drug use when you used that screen name.</p>

<p>Or maybe go back to “oldgrad” or has that one been banned here as well? </p>

<p>rotfl</p>

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<p>Do you spose this calls for a plan C to counter your photographic evidence to support your case that frankly, has been made ad nauseum …</p>

<p>Alas my bambino Luigi … You are a reasonable man! :cool: But still, maybe …</p>

<p>You should just make “her” an offer he can’t refuse. :eek:</p>

<p>TO THE MOON, ALICE! :rolleyes:</p>

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midn’12, your classmate, your leader, and your organization are being slandered and libeled on this thread. I really feel that if you do indeed think it is ‘stupid’ that you need to take a long look at yourself. Is this loyalty? Perhaps you really should spend an afternoon with * Reef Points*. The intro to The Laws of the Navy apparently summarizes your current level of understanding but a little introspective study cannot hurt:</p>

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marciemi, help me here. I think the gist of my arguments so far have been not that of innocence but that you do not have sufficient facts to dispute Admiral Fowler’s decision and therefore are in the wrong by classifying him as ignorant, gullible, incompetent, laughable, etc, etc, and calling for his resignation. And until you and WP can come up with the second cigar in the photograph, your basic premise has just been flushed down the toilet. This is evident by your having to resort purely to ad hominem attacks.</p>