Vandy's competitors

Colleges and Universities A-Z Vanderbilt University
1

<p>Today I read a very impressive InsideVandy article that gave/explained the stats of the 2017 class. The part that impressed me most was this:</p>

<p>"Vanderbilt’s overlap in terms of admissions with competitor schools has intensified in recent years. Duke University is still the No. 1 school Vanderbilt competes with to attract freshmen, but Yale has risen from being the No. 21 competitor to the No. 2 competitor, meaning admitted freshmen must increasingly choose between Yale and Vanderbilt. Harvard has risen from No. 10 to No. 3 in terms of overlap."</p>

<p>This means that many admitted freshmen choose between Vandy and Yale/Harvard, doesn't it? When I was at Vandy in the mid 1990s, Vandy was competing with schools like Emory, Wake Forest, and UVA. I think Vandy is now in a completely different league than twenty years ago. I wonder where it will be in ten years from now.</p>

2

<p>I’ve read that article. That explains why Vanderbilt is a hot school now and getting accepted to Vanderbilt is almost as hard as getting accepted to Harvard and Yale these days.</p>

3

<p>I remember Vandy’s admit rate was about 40% when I applied. But I am very sorry that my children’s chances will be much slimmer. I don’t think legacy will help at this level of competitiveness.</p>

4

<p>Legacy always helps. Feed the pig, chemchem.</p>

5

<p>I am very proud of my alma mater’s ever increasing national/global prestige. However, I kind of worry if a super-elite Vandy might loose things that old-timers like me cherish so much. I love my school. Maybe, I am just getting old.</p>

6

<p>chemchem: it’s the selectivity that changed (and we know, that when it comes to SATs, any school with rigorous coursework will show that the score is an over-rated indicator once they get to a high level. Just ask folks at top engineering schools how their extremely high multiple choice test scores helped them in their extremely difficult science courses where professors intentionally put several problems on exams that even many of the most well-trained, brightest students are un able to anticipate or study for. You think SATs really matter when classes like these at top 20s have 50-70 averages all of the time?), along with regional demographics. That doesn’t necessarily change the whole school. I don’t think it’s that much different (except, that the southern stereotype is long gone, but that probably left in the early 2000s or late 90s). It just has people with much higher SAT scores (many of the top 15 or so schools, excluding maybe JHU, have gone through this. And regardless of JHU being the exception, it may be considered as elite if not more than those that did. Point is, the environment at these other places probably did not change that much). </p>

<p>This idea of cross-admissions doesn’t measure enrollment battles. It primarily means that the schools just admit people with the same SAT scores. Many other schools have basically the same SAT scores as Vanderbilt, HPY, and Duke, and yet are not considered that high on the chain of Vandy competititors (places like Chicago, Penn, Stanford, Columbia, the whole top 15 schools on USNW). Their admissions scheme doesn’t mean as much as one would think many people cross-apply to such schools. The only difference now is that Vanderbilt now admits the same students that Ivies used to reject. We don’t really know which schools most of such students matriculate (perhaps a good chunk yield Vandy, but I can’t imagine all or even most as you have like 2-3 solid competitors there, 2 which offer something completely different in atmosphere and a different academics environment as well. The more bookwormish and brandname obsessed students would probably prefer Yale or Harvard). We just know that the the statistics (SAT/GPA) say that most of the Vanderbilt student body COULD and SHOULD have been able to get into those schools, based on their stats. which is really good. But ultimately, I do believe that a different type of student ends up matriculating at HYP even if the scores are identical (just as Duke and Chicago have the same scores, but Chicago has far more intense students and is far more intense academically. This is despite any overdone complaints about Chicago admitting too many pre-profs. The two schools will likely not have but so much overlap, even in applications.) which means that many students, even the best statistically, will still choose schools based on perceived culture (social, academic, or both. And often the brand of some schools is often enough to sway them, even if they liked the school with the less intense brand) and reputations in such areas will reinforce themselves even as the selectivity changes. I don’t think Vandy will loose any positive, differentiating attribute simply because it’s selectivity is much higher.</p>

7

<p>I am a little frightened to note, during a brief tour of these pages, that at least three people do not seem to know the difference between “lose” and “loose”.</p>

8

<p>That’s probably me, I screwed up, my bad. Grammar check was not my friend when writing that, sorry (should have excluded second o, but w/e. This isn’t an academic paper, admissions essay, personal statement, or something where I would be more critical of my own writing).</p>

9

<p>Bernie12, I guess I started it. Thank you for your wonderful analysis. Oliver007, you are right that I misspelled, but you made some overstatement there. Nevertheless, I’m glad that there are always some people who are willing to correct me. Thanks.</p>

10

<p>I am a Vanderbilt graduate and 2 of our 3 graduated from there, as well. They are both (!) employed…I do think a lot of the competition for admission to all these top schools involves the common application. It’s easy to apply to more schools than ever these days. I also believe that since Vanderbilt doesn’t require an additional essay does send a lot more applications its way. Just a fact…my engineering son was very happy to not have to write one more of those. Vanderbilt also has 2 ED’s, for all those people who don’t get into their first choices in the first round of ED. They have figured out how to play this game well, very well.</p>

11

<p>Most top private schools have 2 ED rounds. The changes in competition can’t come from that, it has to be the RD round (it can’t claim competition if the student is rejected round 1 ED to X and then admitted by Vandy). Also, I think most schools that have several essays care about numbers, but not as much as “class-shaping”. In other words, they may want certain specific types of qualities at their school in more abundance than people that are “well-accomplished and have high stats”. Such schools are probably just using the extra essays to cherry-pick such characteristics that fit the current institutional character or that will, overtime, change the student body to fit “where the school wants to be” in terms of institutional vibe/character. For example, Emory (my alma mater of course) has added some very interesting supplemental essay prompts over the past few years. They may be optional, but they do seem to screen for certain intellectual characteristics (meaning, you may be able to say, "a person that writes and thinks like this, or tackled this topic this way, may go well here, perhaps in these departments or pursuits. Usually they probe ones creativity or asks them to frame their intellectual interest in a certain context) that may not be as easily revealed by looking at stats, a resume/honors list (sometimes these can be part of the whole hoop jumping process. They may not be embellished, but they can lack direction and could just be more of an “impressive list”), or anything like that. </p>

<p>With that said, and in full disclosure, I suppose Emory is trying to play catch up now, because it is doing things like removing the demonstrated interest consideration and also allowing Emory Scholar candidates to nominate themselves, so we want to “play the game” (this time fairly…I guess) too. However, I think it’s serious about shaping a different type of class over time based on the essay prompts (you don’t want to bring in students with high stats who attend for reasons that lead to them not taking advantage of the schools’ offerings or taking the time to use the place as more than a stepping stone). However, the other changes indicates that it wants higher stats. and more National Merit Scholars too (which will be nothing more than a marketing tool. Exactly what would we plan to do with such talent if we don’t develop further academically? It’s better to just continue to work on academic offerings and rigor and then let the quality speak for itself. I’m excited about plans for our chem. dept, I guess. But bringing in “better” students won’t necessarily mean our academics must be on par w/every other school with high stats. It would simply be false, and certain types of top students may end up disappointed unless they are in a difficult major. Unfortunately, the same could be said for several other schools w/high stat student bodies). </p>

<p>Aside from issues of the application, Vanderbilt likely has a really good reputation for its financial aid. Who blames high stats. students from attending Vandy, when the financial aid structure is excellent (I think this and the institutional vibe is a major attractant. Also, if there is anything that can sway a student who may not care as much about the vibe, it’s finances. I would choose in favor of finances if I knew I would still get a solid, reasonably or even somewhat challenging, education)?</p>

12

<p>I wouldn’t say that “most top schools have 2 ED rounds”. Just go through with 3 kids applying to top private schools and Vanderbilt was the only one we ran across with 2.</p>

<p>I still hold to the fact that “no additional essay” does play a role in application numbers. Kids get nervous and just want to throw out as many applications as they can in many cases…</p>

13

<p>Vandy has a very smart admissions strategy (in terms of increasing the school’s prestige). You have Ivy-caliber kids who apply early to, say, Penn or Columbia. Some don’t get in. They look at the rankings and, though they may know next to nothing about Vanderbilt, notice it’s way up there. There’s no additional essay required, the application fee is lower than most of the other schools, so why not apply? Then, when their acceptances come in they discover that Vanderbilt’s financial aid package is more generous than what others are offering them. So they make a trip to Nashville (where they probably have never been) and are impressed by the campus, the atmosphere, the opportunities. Suddenly they (and their parents) are thinking: why spend more $ to shiver for four years at Northwestern or Cornell? So, add another super high-scoring kid to Vandy’s statistics. The student has a great experience and spreads the word. Repeat this every year and the stats keep climbing and the acceptance rate keeps sinking.</p>

14

<p>Vandy has gotten a lot more exposure in the north recently which I think has made it a much more nationally competitive and prestigious school. it has always been a great education and very rigorous, but it used to be far more regional than it is nowadays, where you almost see more people from NY and CA than you do from TN!</p>

15

<p>Oh, I believe you about the essays and application numbers Swimmer (it makes a lot of sense. I’ve always bought arguments claiming that such tactics raise app. numbers and stats. quickly), I just thought more schools had ED2 rounds. I was also just trying to justify why certain schools do more than one supplementary essay (or any at all). The idea is that they want certain kinds of students that may be less stereotypical high achievers, and are willing to use other methods to make up for the app. numbers that they lose by having them (the smarter ones will market more aggressively. This is what Chicago did on top of making its “oldstyle” supplements optional I think. Interestingly, Emory has migrated toward a more “old” Chicago like app. model, which is odd given that it should be wanting to join the admissions arms race with everyone else. Oh well…maybe it’s trying to fix the type of student it attracts before boosting the app. numbers and stats. It’s a noble endeavor, but again, the reputation of a school has a lot to do with who it attracts. It’s difficult to attract more intellectual or unconventional students to a place with a history of being full of future high-powered, but stereotypical professionals with only a modest intellectually oriented mindset. I think it has made progress from what I’ve observed with the last 2-3 freshman classes, but has a ways to go ). </p>

<p>I thought Vanderbilt has had exposure in the north for quite a while now…Maybe it can work on international next, but that comes with its own issues and hurdles and one must be careful about how to go about it (and why you want them).</p>

16

<p>@goodenoughparent</p>

<p>That is a interesting point you made about Vandy’s “tactics” I think it makes alot of sense as well as it kind of occured to my son. He is currently applying to vanderbilt regular decision. his choices of colleges to apply to intially were msot of the ivies, HYS, and some matches and safeties. He realized that he needed to get a great school that was more easier to get into than top 10 cause he knows he is PROBABLY gonna get rejected. He looked into Vanderbilt so we wanted to go and check it out. he fell in LOVE wiht the school immediately. and the financial aid estimates even makes it more attractive! his costs (projected) IF he were to get in and attend would be upwards of 5 grand cheaper than state school! He knows Vanderbilt is still VERY hard to get into (<12 rate i think) and their scores averages are VERY HIGH compared to its rank (like act is 33-35 i think) almost same as harvard, yale, etc.</p>

17

<p>All U’s market themselves and look for students who will bring the community feel/vibe/character they seek to their campus. They all look for similar traits but an interesting quote from the Vandy adcom sums up the Vanderbilt academic community more than many of the other top 20’s. “One goal of the admissions process is to create a dynamic and active campus community, thus it is important that we evaluate how applicants have enriched and enlivened their high school communities.” The top academic students with the ability to enrich and enliven the community separates Vandy from many of the other top 20’s.</p>

18

<p>I would not go there with that last claim, it’s hard to defend. </p>

<p>They don’t necessarily look for exactly the same traits except for the one that you cite that Vandy has that apparently others don’t have as much. I mean that totally isn’t true and is kind of unfair. Most elites have exactly that sort of community with students that have high academic ability. It’s disingenious to say that Vandy is special in this particular manner. I would, however, claim that IT (the school) offers students the perfect balance between academics and say, social life (solid sports, a vibrant Greeklife, etc) for those many students who want the stereotypical college experience with excellent academics. However, there is no doubt that some schools recruit on the idea that they want students who make the experience and character of the institution less stereotypical (as in, not what you see in movies). </p>

<p>Some flat out recruit very many more academically lopsided students and don’t mind this aspect (and just because they are academically lopsided does not mean they don’t enliven and enrich the community as much as places with more balanced students. Have you seen the things that happen at many engineering oriented schools, Princeton, Harvard, even Chicago…? These places may not be lively in a “stereotypical college” definition, but are indeed very enriched and enlivened by the student body they recruited. Many students at other schools would really enjoy the things that happen at such places just as others would enjoy the environment that places like say, Vandy, Duke, ND, and Stanford offer). Places like Vandy, Duke, Stanford, and ND recruit and attract students that take advantage of the balance that the schools offers them. </p>

<p>I would claim that schools are looking for the same “caliber” of students academically (numbers), but not necessarily the exact same mindset, traits, or orientation. Institutional history, mission, course offerings/requirements (seriously, do you think the person who enjoys the intensity of a place like Princeton, which requires a senior thesis or project from everyone is also going be head over hills for every other institution? No, Princeton is going to attract more of the types that are willing to handle its environment. Is Princeton less lively because of the intensity of its academics and the students who attend, I don’t think so…), and the like have a lot to do with who a school wants to attract. Let’s just be fair in these conversations. All elites are not looking for the exact same students and nor do different institutional vibes suggest that students at other schools create a “less enriching and enlivening student body” (maybe not what you would consider enriching and enlivening, but what many other academically talented students would). One would be fighting an uphill battle with that claim. It basically says “our students are better than those at x,y, and z awesome schools because we are more lively”. How is enliven and enriched even defined in this case? There are so many different ways and venues to achieve the same effect at schools who place emphasis on different things socially and academically. Also, all schools DO indeed market themselves, but it’s clear that some use different strategies that yield different results. Chicago’s old strategies used to yield more of a particular type of student and less applications. A new dean came in changed the strategy and got many more apps and a greater variety of students while maintaining something similar to the same vibe as before. It was not humdrum/casual marketing tactics and magic that increased their app. numbers so dramatically.</p>

19

<p>Just my opinion. I don’t think all schools place as much weight on students who will “enrich and enliven” their campus when considering applicants.</p>

20

<p>“All” schools certainly don’t care for that, you are correct in saying this. Some do just want students with high stats. (and this works well in pleasing alumni and boosting the prestige, success, and sometimes rank of the school; although if SATs are already solid, increasing the endowment will do more to raise the rank) and a long resume that will likely have something to offer. However, many schools who want something a little different (as in, of course they want high stats. overachievers, but something else as well. As in, they are trying to cherrypick particular types already in or near this category that fit the environment they desire to have, which can be different from many other places) will do things like ask interesting questions in interviews or read certain essay prompts (usually in the supplement) very closely that are supposed to measure a particular trait they are looking for, and this is usually a very school specific thing. I really do not believe that the top 25-30 schools picked up their institutional vibes completely by accident. Academic, EC offerings, and the nature of admissions recruiting and marketing (which may play up location and certain institutional characteristics and offerings more than others, and thus really rile up the base of people who really desire such offerings) has a lot to do with the variations. Again, it is not easily explained how variations in institutions’ character continue to exist even as the statistical caliber of the student body converge or even diverge. For example, many people notice that places like WashU and Emory still feel very similar despite the rather large edge WashU has on us in admissions selectivity. You don’t just go to one and feel a world of difference in undergrad. caliber, coursework, and social atmosphere. However, if you went from Brown or Duke to, say, Princeton, you will notice and be able to feel huge differences between the 3 despite them being similar in selectivity. Many schools such as Vandy have become quite a bit more selective than Johns Hopkins, however, Johns Hopkins is still known to be more intense (and again, regardless of this intensity, the place seems quite “alive” and “enrichened” to me. They seem to have tons of student driven events and organizations that are very exciting and fun) than many of its more selective counterparts (perhaps). I doubt these are just coincidental similarities and differences. It’s not all due to admissions and recruiting, but no doubt that it likely has some effect.</p>