Very Distressed-any advice?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
21

<p>not to contradict you - USNA69 - but USMA will recommend candidates who are qualified but whose WCS may be too low for an appointment to a "civil prep" program.
I think that USMA and USNA use different criteria for that and different criteria for what constitutes "qualified". Those on the low end of "qualified" usually are slightly academically "deficient" (that sounds like they are dumb - I know!) and seriously do benefit from a year of "prep".</p>

<p>For USMA anyway - some candidates are offered the "civil prep" program if it looks like they won't get in off the waiting list. later on some may actually get an appointment - if the class is not filled. These are candidates who are "on the cusp".</p>

22

<p>JAMO4, If I'm not mistaken, we are discussing a USNA situation on the USNA forum. Please don't convolute the issues.</p>

<p>Perhaps your post does have merit. It is an example, which a few posters refuse to realize, that all the academies do not have identical admissions procedures.</p>

23

<p>not trying to convolute the issue at all - at least one poster was referring to USMA however.<br>
Let me just say - it's only January. Lots and lots of things will happen between now and April 15th or even May 15th.
I was in these shoes last year. My daughter heard nothing for ages. She finally was offered a Civil prep scholarship - verbally in April just before her USNA rejection came (this was expected as she didn't get a nom to USNA).
Everything was so late for us - we had to send in a deposit to her backup AROTC school by May 1 as we didn't have the official scholarship paperwork by then.
So parents - be patient - things will happen and they will happen fast, then you will be confused all over again! ;)</p>

<p>For those who don't get an appointment there are some really good options out there.
Some kids decide they want to move on with their AROTC or NROTC of AFROTC scholarship if they have one and not spend the extra year toward commissioning. Nothing wrong with this route either.</p>

24

<p>


</p>

<p>That makes two of you in the wrong place instead of just the original one. The admissions procedures are difficult enough without attempting to apply USMA policies and procedures to USNA situations.</p>

25

<p>
[quote]
That makes two of you in the wrong place instead of just the original one

[/quote]

with that I am going home.</p>

<p>actually while there are differences there are also similarities - especially with "options" - nevertheless - the feelings are the same.</p>

26

<p>
[quote]
The prep programs, both NAPS and Foundation, are primarily for the academically deficient. A 3Qed candidate is not academically deficient. There are exceptions to this, but they are very few and very far between. A single incident does not make a rule.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>"primarily": true.
"there are exceptions to this": true.
"very few and far between": not so few and more likely annually
"a single incident": nothing single about it</p>

<p>Seems like we have had this discussion before.</p>

<p>Bottom line:
the NAPS/foundation offer is a good one. Your candidate has been offered a seat in the class. It may not be this class, but it will be the following one. Bottom line is that they (the USNA) want you, and they are willing to keep you in the pipeline to get to the USNA. Take them up on the offer.</p>

<p>What I will say is this. While USMA seems to make a distinction, on many levels, for those that attended prep prior to arriving at West Point, the USNA does not seem to make a big deal out of it, at least not to the same extent. This is just an observation.</p>

<p>As for me:
I could care less if the Mid came from harvard or the local community college, came in directly from high school or from a prep school, NAPs, the foundation program, or any combination thereof. What I do care about is that they were motivated enough to seek out an appointment, ready and willing to accept the challenge, and God willing, able to see it through. I am proud of all of them.... and even prouder of those that get to throw their hats in the air.</p>

<p>Some are going to have an easy ride getting there. Some are going to struggle. If they get to throw that hat, they are golden in my eyes.</p>

27

<p>The NAPS mission statement pretty much says it all:

[quote]
To prepare selected candidates morally,
mentally, and physically, with emphasis on
strengthening the Academic Foundation of
individual candidates for officer accession
through the U.S. Naval and Coast Guard
Academies.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There are exceptions, I am sure. I have only heard of one at NAPS. For either to pass muster with NCAA, the only reason athletes may be sent to either and not lose eligibility is due to academic defincies. The basic rules for both remain that the candidate must not be scholasically qualified for direct admissions.</p>

<p>Yep, I recollect our discussions. Reef Points at work.</p>

28

<p>Additionally, this is the sole mission 'statement' from the Foundation website:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Through a need-based scholastic program, the Foundation provides one year of post-high school education to qualified young men and women who need further academic preparation before they enter the Naval Academy.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The exceptions are not as widespread as some would have us believe.</p>

29

<p>From the foundation - their FAQ's on the Program: Athletic and Scholarship Program: <a href="http://www.usna.com/NetCommunity/Document.Doc?&id=246%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usna.com/NetCommunity/Document.Doc?&id=246&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Following are profiles of sponsored candidates who are members of the Class of 2010. They attended a prepschool or junior college affiliated with the Foundation <a href="http://community.usna.com/NetCommunity/Document.Doc?&id=164%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://community.usna.com/NetCommunity/Document.Doc?&id=164&lt;/a>
See page 11</p>

<p>I see a very talented Athletic and/or Academic group in the Scholarship Class recipients that are now in the Class of 2010. Take it for however you want to interpret the document produced by the Foundation.</p>

<p>...graduate of Annapolis High School in Annapolis,MD. Kyle was an Anne Arundel County Honors Scholar</p>

<p>...was a member of the National Honor Society.</p>

<p>...A member of the National Honor Society and a Maryland Distinguished Scholar</p>

<p>...member of the National Honor Society and was awarded the LT William J. Cavanaugh Jr. scholarship for athletic and scholastic achievement his senior year</p>

<p>...despite numerous moves throughout high school Steven remained on the honor roll every year.</p>

<p>...He was on the honor roll all four years and graduated with high honors</p>

<p>...was awarded the Scholar/Athlete Award three times and the AAA for
Success Award for academic, attitude and achievement excellence, and a Michigan Merit Scholarship Award and an AP Scholar award.</p>

<p>...He was on the High Honor Roll all four years of high school</p>

<p>...He graduated with a 4.0 GPA</p>

<p>...He was a National Merit Commended Scholar, member of the National Honor Society and a varsity member of the academic and engineering teams.</p>

<p>...National Honor Society and the Mathematics National Honor Society...United States Army National Scholar Athlete Award, the President’s Award for Educational Excellence and was a Maryland Distinguished Scholar Honorable mention</p>

<p>...A four year New York State Scholar Athlete designee and honor roll student</p>

<p>Just to name a few of the achievements of these talented Mids</p>

30

<p>You are absolutely correct, Profmom, the vast majority of candidates fall into one of two categories, high grades and low SATs or high SATs and low grades. You are quoting the profiles with the high grades. Look at the profile of their SATs compared to those entering the Academy directly from high school. There is your answer. The average math SAT of the group you are looking at here is 600, well below the average of those entering directly from HS. They are there for academic reasons. Plain and simple.</p>

<p>Just a quick question, Profmom. Since you are stating that the above individuals are so highly qualified, why do you think they are agreeing to waste a year of their lives going to prep school when, if you are correct, they don't need it. And why is the Academy wasting my alumni contributions sending them there?</p>

31

<p>National Merit Commended Scholar - hardly had poor SAT's</p>

<p>Of the two kids from GA that I know - one is a very talented football player - saw a lot of him make big plays - he was what we would call "redshirted" so accepted the foundation on that premiss he also was a good student in HS, the other didn't get a nom the first time around Her sat's were above 1300, with math the higher of the two.</p>

<p>Like I said each can interpret however they want, I just provided some "written" information</p>

<p>If one wants to attend USNA and that is the only way they can get there I would not call that wasting a year or wasting the foundations money. Pay $$$ at civilian college for a year or get a foundation scholarship. Maybe for a lot of these kids the price tag is appealing - who knows what goes through their decision process.</p>

32

<p>


</p>

<p>The policies and procedures are what they are. Those direct admissions out of high school have an average math SAT of around 700. The Foundation Class of 2010 to which you provided the link had an average 100 points less. The minimum math SAT for direct admissions without a waiver is 600. So approximately half of this group would have required a very rare math SAT waiver. And then we have the other half whose grades did not reflect their SATs.</p>

<p>Like JAMO4, rather than contributing, you are also attempting to convolute the issue under discussion here.</p>

<p>It is against NCAA regulations to use the prep schools to 'redshirt' athletes.</p>

<p>Admissions can 'find' nominations for those unable to obtain them on their own.</p>

<p>Admissions is a complex process. Sometimes the candidates don't realize what exactly is happening to them. And for some, the 'sale' for a prep program may require glossing over the obvious and dwelling on the esoteric. I would personally scruitinize third hand information with a fine tooth comb.</p>

33

<p>
[quote]
<br>
Look at the profile of their SATs compared to those entering the Academy directly from high school. There is your answer. The average math SAT of the group you are looking at here is 600, well below the average of those entering directly from HS. They are there for academic reasons. Plain and simple.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>math 720, verbal 600.
may not be as "plain and simple" as you make it out to be.
And yes, one of the profiles Profmom highlighted.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Since you are stating that the above individuals are so highly qualified, why do you think they are agreeing to waste a year of their lives going to prep school when, if you are correct, they don't need it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>perhaps because they see the "bigger picture" and are motivated enough to do whatever is demanded of them. IMO, it speaks volumes. My son considered himself to be "one of the lucky of the deserving many." If it meant another year of his time to get there, so be it. (for the record- turned down 2 other service academy appointments and 3 other scholarship offers- 1 full and 2 partial- in the process. I wonder if the people awarding those thought it was a waste of their $$$$$) </p>

<p>Perhaps you are suggesting it was a waste of mine?? While the scholarship covered some of the tuition, out-of-pocket expense still hit the $25K mark.... </p>

<p>
[quote]
And why is the Academy wasting my alumni contributions sending them there?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>would hardly call it a waste of your alumni contributions. IMO, all the candidates should attend- perhaps it would address some of the maturity issues that are at the root of many of the problems at (you name it) school. </p>

<p>However, if you feel otherwise, perhaps you might want to consider donating your $$$$$ to the USNA "Feed the Mids" Program..... based on all the postings that continue on not 1, not 2, not 3, *BUT NOW FOUR DIFFERENT FORUMS * it seems like the "secondary, optional and conditional" qualifiers continue to extend to the food issue.</p>

<p>You will, no doubt, hold to your opinions, and I, for one, have no desire to try and change what cannot be changed, let alone considered. (You still owe me that bottle, a reminder that there is hope!) </p>

<p>However- what I am trying to do is to encourage those candidates - and parents- to strongly consider the foundation program offer should it arrive on your doorstep. Unfortunately, parents and candidates have been known to shrug off the offer as if it was demeaning, undeserving, or that their candidate is, somehow, "undeserving." Which is hardly the case. There are many, many reasons an offer of foundation may be made. </p>

<p>A foundation offer is a wonderful thing. Even if you did graduate HS with "high honors," an extra year of calc or chem can't hurt- especially if it earns you that admission ticket. Getting away from home, giving yourself another year to mature before facing the rigors of the academy- all of that can be a very positive and enriching experience. Heck- our budding naval architect got to build a boat!!!!!! </p>

<p>So before "dismissing" the offer, think it over carefully. What USNA69 fails to mention is that **the foundation-sponsored kids graduate at a highter rate compared to the brigade- and have done so for 10 straight years!!!!!!! **So see USNA69- money well spent afterall!!!</p>

<p>As Captain Wallace explained to the foundation kids, "You have a seat in the Class of 2010 that is yours to lose." If the USNA did not want you, if they did not see what you could bring to the table, if they did not believe you could succeed at USNA, believe me, the offer would not be placed on the table in the first place. </p>

<p>So how bad do you want it?????</p>

34

<p>I provided a link to the Foundation Scholarship programs. At least those asking the questions about the programs can see the types of kids accepted and can view the Foundations FAQ's about the program. </p>

<p>No where does the FAQ's indicate that the program is only for academically deficient students.</p>

<p>As for sports: per the FAQ's
[quote]
You may be talented in a particular sport (like a recruited athlete) and may wish to attend a school which is strong in that sport. In this case, the USNA coach may also have recommended a particular school to you.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[Quote]
Q: Since I'm a competitive wrestler/swimmer/football player/etc., will I be able to participate in my sport without losing NCAA eligibility?
A: If you attend a preparatory school, the answer is, yes. We try to match the student who has a particularly strong sport, with a school which has a strong program in that sport. You will lose a year of eligibility if you compete in your sport at the college or junior college level. Note: Only 3 of our schools are junior colleges: New Mexico Military Institute, Marion Military Institute and Valley Forge Military Academy and College. One is a 4-year college, Greystone Prep at Schreiner University.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Not convoluting the issue at all - just providing some information from the Foundation's printed material that some may find useful.</p>

35

<p>
[quote]
It is against NCAA regulations to use the prep schools to 'redshirt' athletes.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>yes, it is.</p>

<p>It is equally against NCAA regulations for:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Division III programs to offer athletic scholarships.<br>
(what they will offer, however, are attractive academic ones)</p></li>
<li><p>"Ivies" to offer athletic scholarships. You can add in the Patriot League schools as well. (again, academic ones are not frowned upon) </p></li>
<li><p>The issue of "redshirting"
done ahead of time: a clear violation.
(what many schools will do is place the athlete on the JV for a year- with 4 years of eligibility intact- abet, it amounts to the "5 year plan." ) (clearly not an option at the service academies, where tax payer $$$ support 4 years only). </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Oh... and lots of "ivies" filling up those prep schools as well!!!</p>

<p>It's enough spinning to make one dizzy...... :(</p>

36

<p>Profmom,</p>

<p>
[quote]
No where does the FAQ's indicate that the program is only for academically deficient students.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There is more to the website than the FAQ section. I would have imagined that one would have to go through the front page to get to the FAQ section. From the front page of the same website:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Through a need-based scholastic program, the Foundation provides one year of post-high school education to qualified young men and women who need *further academic preparation * before they enter the Naval Academy.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The only way that the academies can justify a fifth year of post-secondary school athletics to the NCAA is that it is incidental to preparing them academically. Athletes therefore can play sports to maintain their currency but the reason they must be there is to gain their academic capability. Any other reason is a violation of NCAA rules and regulations.</p>

<p>Mdfromct came on the forum and asked if her 3Qed son was eligible for NAPS. Usna1985 very correctly stated that it was unlikely since 3Qs were not typically eligible for prep programs. Commencing with USNAMom and continuing through you, perhaps inadvertently, false hope has been suggested. That, to me, is convoluting the issues. I am surprised that you are attempting to draw correlations between a PR bio and a USNA application.</p>

37

<p>I don't think anyone was attempting to give false hopes, or misinformation, to anyone, and I will include myself in that group.</p>

<p>Truth be told, in our circumstance, the foundation offer was made when verbal scores were sitting at a 590. It was only after the foundation offer was made, and accepted, that the January score pushed his verbal to (what we called at least) the "magic 600." In retrospect, sorta wished he had taken the SATs again, because every time he did, his math scores continued to improve! </p>

<p>However, in response to "drawing correlations between a PR bio and a USNA application", bios were taken directly from the USNA application, updated to reflect foundation accomplishments.</p>

<p>Enough.</p>

<p>I have long come to realize:
-that many things, tangible and otherwise, get factored into and considered in the admissions process
-that none of us is 100% "in the know" as none of us, as well-intended as we might be, or as connected as we might present ourselves, are sitting "at the table" when that file comes up for review
-that each candidate is unique, and each brings their own unique attributes to the table, whether or not we appreciate what they might be
-that there is "no one answer" for "what makes the cut"
-that underneath it all, there is both "rhyme and reason" to this process, and that the folks at the academy have been doing this for many, many years- successfully!
-that we will NEVER KNOW why one block is turned "green" and the other "black"
-that there are "exceptions to everything"
-that this part of the process is beyond our control
-and that while interesting, it is a futile exercise to try and understand it to the nth degree, especially if the intent to do that is to "second guess", "question," or worse yet, an ill-fated attemt at "gaming" the system.</p>

<p>I have said it now countless times, and will repeat to anyone "new" joining this discussion. </p>

<p>*All you can do is your very best. *
**All efforts **should be focused on doing just that.</p>

<p>On that note, best of luck to all!</p>

38

<p>2010, it is the jibberish that you have just posted that makes it extremely difficult for me to be a positive influence on this forum. You make it sound as if they use an Ouiji board to pick the candidates. Not true.</p>

39

<p>


</p>

<p>If you and I are thinking of the same Patriot League, Lafayette is now providing athletic scholarships as well as Lehigh. </p>

<p>Sorry for off topicness.</p>

40

<p>JAM, Profmom,Navy2010 - </p>

<p>Thanks for the helpful info. I for one greatly appreciate it!</p>