A couple years ago, Lawrence’s best merit offer was approx. half tuition, and they don’t stack music and merit aid, so you can only get one big award. Also no marching band there. My DD really liked the professor in her primary instrument, and the music ed program.
UNT requires 3 years of marching band for music ed majors. A great value especially if you can get in-state tuition or better. And they offer a lot of AP credit so it is possible to get the music ed degree done in 4 years without summer school. Be sure to ask at each school - at many it’s 4-1/2 years including student teaching.
Be aware that Marching Illini is very competitive. Several of DD’s friends did not make it.
Not that you want to add other schools to your list, but University of Nebraska-Lincoln was affordable and has an excellent honors program. University of Kentucky, Ball State, and Butler may be good options too. Michigan State does not march flutes, so your son would need a secondary instrument.
Thank you everyone for all the valuable added information from the last 10days. I had some stuff going on and needed a “brain break” as my kids say. Tonight is FAFSA time so let’s see what that pops out for EFC. But at least my son got his common app essay done. One more box checked off. I will respond to the PMs ASAP. @3goldensmom thanks for the Marching info. That’s helpful as he loves it.
@UniversityMomOf2 , I am late to this thread and seems like you have lots of great options to consider, but if you awake in the middle of the night thinking he needs one more school to add to his list, consider FSU. My son had a 35 ACT and was a NMF and is finding the academics and his peers to be exceptional, in the honors program and in the music school. The music school is incredible and music ed is a very popular major. FSU can be very affordable for OOS students, as you can get a waiver of OOS tuition with around a 31 ACT. The music school also awards talent scholarships. The state is pumping tons of money into FSU and its other state schools, and FSU overall is on the rise as a result. Many OOS kids tend to fly out of Jacksonville and there are plenty of shuttles/buses/carpool to the airport. Good luck and let us know how his process goes!
@vistajay I REALLY wanted him to apply to FSU. His band director is friends with someone in the music department there. But it is the one school on “my” list that requires a specific Mozart Concerto as part of the audition process. It’s concerto in C and he started preparing Concerto in G for his auditions. I told him to just swap them out because the other schools on our lists would be happy with ANY Mozart Concerto. He gave a very big explanation as to why he was not going to do that… stuff about learning another piece and G being more suited to his style, sound and skill, etc. But his flute teacher got on my case saying he has enough music to learn for everything he is involved in over the next couple months and adding another piece was not in his best interest. I get that. And some would say learning one more piece isn’t a big deal and kids learn lots of music quickly all the time. And they do so quite successfully. In the past he has done so. But right at this moment that isn’t my kid. His classes are overwhelming in the homework department. He is getting straight As but he’s taking AP Calc BC, AP Physics C, AP Microeconomics, AP Psychology, and dual credit college English right now, on top of Wind Ensemble, giving up his lunch for concert band, having Marching band practices, football games and competitions, his district audition that he is at at this very moment, prepping to retake the SAT this Saturday, preparing pre-screens and an audition type interview for FMES. There just isn’t enough time for him to sleep much less practice anything new. So his flute teacher wants him sticking with the 4 pieces he is learning and doing nothing more. If he had a better teacher from December to August (long story) his repertoire would be more advanced and he probably would have his audition pieces done and a new piece wouldn’t be an issue. Or if he hadn’t waited until 2 weeks before school started to begin this journey we could be much further along in the process, but sadly that isn’t the case. I’m hoping the grad school journey will be smoother and he will have more options. Right now I need to narrow down this long list of schools. Fortunately we are visiting 3 in under a week and another next month. He has visited two others. The rest will probably be seen at auditions.
@UniversityMomOf2 , I so get that. My son was EXACTLY there one year ago, except he had essay fatigue. We wanted him to apply to Northwestern, but he just could not finish the last essay, and he did not want to apply to any northern climate schools. Drove us crazy but it’s his process. I imagine he would have reacted negatively if we tried to talk him into learning another song for a specific school. Best of luck!
Thank you so much. His essays are barely started. But what he has are so him, fit the music and are just genuine (including his Copland quote because he loves Copland). He has to write so many for his rhetoric class he is struggling. Not to mention practicing for the writing portion of the SAT. Northwestern is practically out back yard so I’m hoping he will apply there for grad. But we will see. They are so tough to figure out. My Ds best friend and her brother both applied there with 34 ACT. One is a musician/engineer and the other a dancer/pre-pharmacy. The dancer got in (not sure what college with intent to study pharmacy while still pursuing dance) but the musician/engineer didn’t even though they have the dual program for music and engineering. So he is at Purdue and she is at Loyola Chicago but auditioning in NY.
Just got a pat on the back from one of his band directors thanking me for being so supportive. I thought all of my inquiries were probably going to drive them nuts but I guess they’ve had some recent music education majors who graduated and went off to college with ZERO parental support through the process, on the flip side of the students being pushed to music who don’t want it. So they are being helpful. He also recommended this site. I told him I had already been getting lots of great info from amazing families on here. So glad I found this section of the site.
http://www.uh.edu/financial/undergraduate/types-aid/scholarships/
Note the academic excellence scholarship. Apply, have a good enough GPA, pretty much guaranteed to get an automatic $1000 minimum. The music college often gives some sort of award too if they want your student to come from out of state, so many of the out of state undergrads aren’t actually paying the surcharge.
The deal is that Texas State colleges ( not A&M or UT ) still are at the $1000 scholarship level to avoid the surcharge, so… It can be quite attractive. Austin is a bit higher to get the waiver, but they also have money to throw around, being that Texas is one of the few states with a huge surplus of funding now. So it can’'t hurt to give a few schools in Texas a try, IMO.
As for the degree, a BM is considered the industry standard now and is rigorous like a BS is in a hard science. It takes a higher level of staff, classes, as well as accreditation to be able to offer one. It’s not as common to see a BM in music education outside of larger schools, but it definitely is the one you want to get if you can. Most good programs are honestly 5 years due to the nearly 140 units required. It’s possible to do in 4, but you have to be a machine and take 18-20 units a semester. A typical BM degree is often the most difficult offered in the entire university, slightly ahead of or tied with an EE/ME degree. Employers know this and know that they can hire graduates from such programs with few reservations.
Note - I talk about Houston as if it is easy to get into. The (separate ) application and audition process for music is two stages and is 100% conservatory level, so put on your best game. UT Austin is also quite selective as well.
S and many of his BM jazz friends at UNT came in with a nice amount, say 30-40, credit hours from AP scores and on-site test-out tests. S is on track to finish the BM in 3.5 years total with no semester over 15 hours. To be upfront, he did take one summer of 10 hours, too, but then many of his semesters will be at 13 hours.
@JOberlander and @GoForth Those are the two colleges we have on our list that are far. All others we can drive to in 8 hours or less. I’m trying to figure out how to cut colleges off the list. It’s hard when people keep recommending so many great schools lol. But that’s what we needed so it’s appreciated. S wants to keep Texas on the list because he feels it’s a great state for band. We visit 3 colleges next week so we will see if any come off. Also one in a few weeks. Hoping for 2 more soon that aren’t far.
One thing he wants me to do is to check out recommended four year plans and required gen-Ed’s. If all goes well this year he will have about 26 credits from AP/Dual credit (math, science, psych, Econ, English lit). He doesn’t want to attend a school where he’s going to have to take a bunch more. He knows he will need some things to earn a teaching license but he doesn’t want more math, lab science, social studies, etc. That can help us weed out a few as well. One school we looked at requires 2 semesters US history and one of US Government. He said no way. (Should have taken the AP test.) He took AP Music Theory but didn’t sit for the test. I know most programs give you a test in that area for placement so I don’t know if it means he could get out of a class if he tests higher or if he will need same number of theory credits but they would be higher level.
AP music theory won’t directly get you credit, but you placement test performance can. The other AP credits apply more directly. S had mostly 5’s, but English Lit and Lang were 4’s. So at UNT, S’s non musical classes were/are English2, Intro to Soc, Physics of Sound (S didn’t take AP Physics), 2 semesters of Gov’t. He AP or on-site tested out of English1, English Lit, US History, Spanish1,2 (not req’d), Math, Theory1, and some intro jazz classes. Some folks also test out of piano and more theory.
Music Theory (good for knowledge but not credit)
Gave her fine arts credit - no help since she’ll have plenty of fine arts credit naturally through major
Helped her place higher but did not relieve her of any of the 4 semesters required for her degree.
APUSH / APEuro (useless)
While these gave her all the History credits she would have needed, so will her required Music History classes (required for degree).
APLit/ APLang (undecided)
Maybe eliminated 1 semester of Lit and 1 sem of writing
I say maybe because she could have proficiency tested out of these and / or also gotten credit for them by her ACT score.
However, you could argue that the classes made it more likely she’d pass proficiency and helped her with her ACT score.
APSpanish (useful for her as a Minor, but otherwise would have been useless)
She recieved 1 credit (4 semester hours). However, her FL req’s were met simply by taking FL in HS. This only helped her because she decided to do a minor in Spanish. So, it made that minor more easily obtainable.
ANY AP Math = useless.
Only one math class was required and her ACT score relieved her of the req.
AP Sciences would have been really good and helpful! She has 2 semesters of science required that she still has not completed (Junior year). Can you tell she loves science?
My D finished her Soph year of college with what could have been 120 semester hours, 105 for credit and 15 not for credit and will not be able to graduate early. She is doing a double minor which accounts for some of it.
What APs you take and what your college requires and will give credit for should be something looked at closely.
S18 had 39 AP credits, 28 of which directly apply to the general studies requirement of his BM. So instead of 132 credits for his BM, he has 104 left to take. I think that will be huge for him later as he finds other classes he is interested in taking.
Late to the thread (I think I read the initial post but didn’t speak up because he’s instrumental rather than choral) but my niece is doing music education at St Olaf and really enjoying it. She’s a sophomore and already getting some sort of hands-on time in a high school classroom this fall (I think she gets to direct one of their songs for their winter concert, although I heard that from my parents/ her grandparents rather than from her directly so I won’t guarantee the accuracy). She’s enjoying the school overall and the snow so far (she grew up in Texas so it’s a big change climate-wise). I might be able to ask her questions if you have any (more to the point, I can ask, and she might answer ).
Also, her other options at the time were University of Houston and Baylor. I don’t know what her plans for post-graduation are as far as what state she would like to end up living in.
@gloriavaughan Thanks for the info. Didn’t know that was a requirement but I think he meets it as his English is 2 semesters of a college writing based class while in high school. They are the only two classes I could convince him to take through the junior college so those are actual college classes not AP classes. However I can’t say for sure if they are the right classes. It’s so hard when the colleges all call the class the same thing. A while back ISU had on their website a chart of every community college in the state and what their course names translated to at their school so you could see what requirements are filled before you even apply. It might still be there. Don’t know. Was looking for D not S as a potential for transfer if she did CC first. I do know they passed a law that if you go to an Illinois state college (not private) that gets funding from Illinois government they have to accept all AP tests that you score a 3 or above on. That’s virtually unheard of. Usually you need at least a 4 if not a 5. Might be useful information for someone who stumbles across this thread who may have ISU or U of I on their list. S is applying to U if I so it applies to him.
@washugrad Visiting St. Olaf tomorrow. Driving up today. I know they have a phenomenal reputation and my son knows a student there. However I have to say of the 3 visits we have planned this week they were the most difficult of any of the schools to set up the visit and he didn’t get anything he requested except tour of school and to meet with admissions. I’ve been calling them weekly as I see options for his date of visiting getting filled up with each passing day and they kept assuring me all was fine and he would get a confirmation soon. I called them two days ago because we still had not heard anything and I wasn’t making the trip without contact from the school. They finally sent our confirmation/schedule late Friday morning without the things we requested. ?He does get to sit in on a class but we not know what class we just know it’s not in the music department. They didn’t even schedule him to see the facilities.
UW Eau Claire and Lawrence were awesome to deal with and he got all he requested including lessons at both colleges and a chance to attend a symphonic band rehearsal where they told him to be sure to bring his instrument at UWEC and to take a woodwind technique class at Lawrence. That one we didn’t even request. We got an email from admissions saying that the professor had seen his interest in music ed and invited him to attend her class and have a lesson with her.
Next will be Valpo. Hope to squeeze in Millikin at DePauw before he finishes applications. Anything else will have to be seen at auditions.
@goforth I didn’t know you could test out of classes. Is that what they call CLEP tests? I’ll have to have him look into that. He wasn’t able to take the AP Gov class he wanted because it conflicted with another AP class and he had to choose. He chose Physics. He was talking yesterday about sitting for the AP test anyway. I don’t think it’s a good idea but he REALLY doesn’t want to have to take some of those gen eds I keep telling him everyone has them but he doesn’t listen to mom ?
How exciting! We had a really easy time when we first visited Olaf but I was trying to schedule a music visit and an interview for my kid there and he isn’t going until the end of November. Luckily it’s just a day trip for us but jeez. They should try to have some flexibility for seniors currently applying. We had a really great and friendly, welcoming visit on campus there. I have had people say music auditions were intimidating at Olaf but no many happy students/alum. We know 2 freshman in music there this year and a couple several other current students too.
@UniversityMomOf2 - We discovered as time elapsed various classes could be tested out of. Maybe it was CLEP-like, but that name wasn’t used. Just at the beginning of this semester, S’s friends prodded him to test out of Improv I (MUJS-2260 I believe), but that test was not for cerdit, but rather just skipping ahead. That alone will enable S to possibly graduate 1 semester early. With all my intense scouting ahead at UNT, there were still options I just did not discover, and they only became clear when (S was) immersed in the culture.
@UniversityMomOf2 I think this is what you are referring to with ISU. http://registrar.illinoisstate.edu/transfer/course.shtml Each school varies as to what classes you can test out of and under what circumstances. Millikin allows you to test out of semesters of class piano. Sometimes using AP credits to place out of classes in your major can hurt you more than help you. Dd decided to take the first theory class instead of placing out. She was glad she did since there were things taught in that class that were not covered in AP theory. Another one of her friends placed out of Chem and started with the second course. He was sorry because, being in the honors program that required a high GPA, he could have used that course as an easy A to give him more flexibility with the GPA. So there are pros and cons to everything.
We had a good overall experience with all the visits. Even though Olaf didn’t schedule anything musically for us we met a student randomly who suggested we attend a rehearsal. He told us what was going on that day. It was such a great, but to me odd, situation that speaks to the college itself. We got their a little too early so had time to kill. A student was really early to class and wearing a shirt from Interlchen and noticed S carrying his instrument. Even though nothing planned he wasn’t leaving it in the car. He didn’t want it getting cold. So the student just randomly started talking to him and we spent a good half hour with him getting information. Then after our scheduled activities we went to orchestra rehearsal. It was awkward just showing up. But some students saw us kind of milking about and came up to us, welcomed us, showed us where to sit, told the professor we were visiting. He talked to us, then introduced S to the orchestra. After rehearsal was done a couple of the flute players came and talked with us. The campus is beautiful. It’s just such a lovely welcoming atmosphere. S is definitely applying.
UWEC went really well. The flute teacher was great. They got along well and he was very frank about the public school system in the state vs privates and told us to look at both. The department head really knew how to sell the place. I have mixed feelings about the facilities. They are building new things and renovated others but some are really run down. S sat in on a symphonic band rehearsal and site read to play along with the second flute part. He enjoyed the opportunity. Everyone was welcoming. Turns out on of the students is from a high school in our district. However THE HILL. Ugh! Honestly I don’t see him there but he is applying. After all the choice is his.
Lawrence was also amazing. Different from St. Olaf but we both fell in love with it for so many reasons. Again it’s not my life but S says that’s where he sees himself. He is wearing a Lawrence shirt to school today. We are going to make a second visit there for his dad to see it and for him to attend the flute studio at the recommendation of the faculty member he took the lesson from. Also to take a lesson with the woman we requested who said she’d be happy to give him a lesson but wasn’t available that day. If anyone stumbles across this and wants more specific information about things we saw or did at those schools feel free to PM me.
He surprised himself at liking the smaller colleges. That helped him knock several schools off his list now that he has been exposed to a variety of sizes. The small LAC is his preference as opposed to big state flagship schools, although he is still applying at a couple.
Great update! I’m glad you were able to have a more full experience at Olaf. That is such a beautiful campus.
Are you considering EA at Lawrence? My son is auditioning at Lawrence on November 10. My son had one unfortunate moment at Lawrence and I hope it can somewhat redeem itself that weekend because I think it’s such a great school too.
Sounds like 3 possibles at the very least! With auditioned programs it feels nerve wracking to have too few choices that might be workable on the table. Happy applying!
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