Viola Performance major decision help!

College Majors Music Major
1

Hi, I am a senior violist from southern CA. I applied as a BM in performance. My top choices that I have been accepted to are USC (Brian Chen), Rice (Ivo Van der Werff), UCLA (CarlaMaria Rodrigues), and CIM (Robert Vernon).

I just returned from the accepted student days at Rice, and I am more confused than ever. I found out that they will not allow me to double major or even minor there. I heard that USC is very accommodating to double majors. I did not apply to Case Western in addition to CIM, so it would be only viola performance.

I thought that if I attended an esteemed music school like Rice, which has a very strong orchestra program, that I would have a good chance of winning a position in an orchestra after my BM, and a very strong chance if I went on to get a MM. After speaking with reliable sources at Rice, I have found out that it is actually very unlikely to get an orchestra job with a BM, and even with a MM it is not a great chance. One professor told me their child received both a BM and an MM in performance, and is doing local gigs and is in debt! I am really starting to think that I should play it safe and get a double major. I am now thinking of going to USC and double majoring, even though it is not my first choice. I am not familiar with Robert Vernon or CIM at all, so it is scary to consider something that I know little about. Has anyone attended any of these colleges or heard what music performance majors do when they graduate?

I am wondering how many people can successfully support themselves after getting a BM. How doable is it to get a double degree from USC (I am strong academically)? Could I still be a strong enough musician to do professional work if I double majored?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, I am very confused and only have 2 weeks to make a decision!

2

I can tell you a little about CIM. To do a double degree with Case, it goes through CIM, and you do not need to apply to Case. As for Robert Vernon, most of the violists in the Cleveland Orchestra studied with him at one time or other.

3

If you decide to do a dual degree through CIM/CWRU look carefully at costs. IIRC there is a several thousand dollar surcharge per year for CIM students to pursue a second degree at Case.

4

Regarding Bob Vernon, he has been a powerhouse teacher for many years and lots of his students have orchestra jobs (especially in the Cleveland Orchestra, as @UniformMom said above). But of course there are never any guarantees!!! As a stand alone Conservatory, I think CIM would have a VERY different feel from your other choices. Have you visited all the schools? I would seriously consider making the investment to make a quick trip to your top choices for a visit and trial lesson! A Skype lesson is another option…I think teacher choice is going to be very important for you.

5

I think the surcharge at CIM for a Case degree is about $5000 a year.

CIM also has several grads as members of the viola section for the Boston Symphony. Their recent 3rd chair is now the principal at Cleveland. And, yes, he was a student of Bob Vernon.

All that said, congratulations and good luck! You have a wonderful list of options for places to study!

6

It does sound to me as if USC is the best place for you.

I just want to make a couple of comments.

Getting an orchestra chair is no longer the only viable path for an instrumentalist. I know successful musicians who have never played in a big orchestra. This is why conservatories now run classes in being an entrepreneur. You can free lance, play in ensembles, get involved in a niche (like new music). LA is increasingly becoming a center for interesting new music. And of course the film industry is centered there as well.

The other point I want to make is that it is okay to get a bachelor’s in music and use it as anyone uses a bachelor’s degree: the degree gives you access to any job requiring a bachelor’s degree, and to grad and professional schools. A few years back I read that music majors as a group had the highest admit rate to med school at 62%, just for example.

So I hope you can pick the school you like most and try to enjoy these 4 years without obsessing too much about the future, especially a very narrow future goal like an orchestra chair. I understand there are financial concerns. But don’t make conservatory as directly vocational as it seems.

Teacher is important of course, and fit. Think about size, location, and “vibe”. And about access to academics you might like or the option of double degree, yes.

7

It’s totally possible get an orchestra position with an MM, and even a BM–if you are a super accurate player and audition well. My daughter (who is not interested in being an orchestra musician) has friends who literally had to leave programs early and take diploma certificates because they won jobs at major orchestras. That said, not just anyone is able to do that. CIM and Rice are top schools if you want an orchestra job. Bob Vernon is a top teacher. But a lot depends on what you do with your undergrad years, how hard you work, and how you audition.

8

Professionally do you want to become an orchestral musician? If so and you are good enough to get accepted at Rice, give it 100%. Take your shot go all in.

You will have a very marketable Rice degree.

Anything else you do academically will be at the expense of your music.

9

I disagree with the last statement- just my opinion. I think it depends on your talent. There are instrumentalists who do not go to conservatory and at college don’t even major in music, who go on to be very successful. Sometimes learning about a variety of subjects that support music, can be helpful long term: reading, writing, research, poetry, art history, and of course a music curriculum too.

10

There are quite a few threads on this subject in the music forum over the years, and one of the things to be careful about is the dual degree dilemma, where kids take a ‘real degree’ along with the “useless” BM degree (in quotes for reasons, folks), because after all getting a job in music is tough, yada yada. First of all, unless you are talking about more career oriented degrees (usually thought of as being computer science degrees and the like, engineering, accounting, maybe finance, etc), if your second degree at USC was in a liberal arts degree, or maybe even something generic like business administration, that second degree might not be more valuable than a BM degree, both are college degrees. A lot of people get music degrees (BM, BA) and end up doing ‘regular’ jobs based on those degrees, the same way people who major in liberal arts, or even get a bachelors in things like chemistry, biology or other sciences (these days a bachelor degree in those won’t get you too far from what I know).

The problem with the dual degree is the time element, while there are people who get dual BM with another degree (programs like Vanderbilt and Northwestern get a lot of musical kids like that) and come out as a high level musician, it is extremely difficult, the BM degree is time consuming, especially for a string instrument where the practice level is large, not to mention finding times for ensembles, chamber rehearsals, you name it. In the end you can have the worst of both worlds, where you struggle through 2 degrees because they both take up a lot of time. I think this is where @clarinetdad16 is coming from and based on my experience, that is very true, my son has known a lot of kids from his pre college prep program days who did dual degrees and most of them ended up losing on the music side as the academic side took too much time (again, doesn’t mean it is impossible, but that ‘insurance policy’ may not be such great insurance.

@compmom is right that someone interested in music doesn’t necessarily have to go the conservatory route or major in music, but that comes with some big caveats, it also depends on who the student is. I have seen kids who major in non musical things as an undergrad who go on to MM programs and so forth, but you have to be careful about that, a lot of the kids who go that route were accomplished coming into college, took lessons and whatnot in college with high level teachers, did ensemble work and then applied to grad school (the Ivies for example attract and recruit such kids, and they have strong music program and pay for the lessons as part of tuition). But this might not apply to all, while I totally agree with @compmom that music is one of those things you have to live for and learn for (Charlie Parker put it best, you can’t put it through the horn if you haven’t lived it, used to get me really angry seeing these 9 year old ‘prodigies’ playing gypsy themed music like Waxman’s Carmen Fantasy and Zigguneweisen without a clue what story the music was telling), it also is true that getting a regular degree while doing music “on the side” may not work well for many people, the stories of the really successful musicians you hear who did that often were people who were playing at a high level when they went to college (Gil Shaham and Alisa Weilerstein come to mind).

For me, I usually recommend the dual degree for kids who really want/need the ability to study a lot more non music stuff then a typical BM degree would give rather than trying to hedge their bets, I have seen plenty of kids who did a BM in music and a BA in liberal arts fields figuring that the BA was more ‘valuable’ in getting a job, and found out it wasn’t and paid a price for that with their music (and that is just my opinion). If you think pursuing another degree was worth the extra work and trying to juggle it with the work for the BM degree, because it is something you want to do,that is great, if you are doing it as a job hedge I would recommend seriously thinking about that and the benefits and costs of doing that.

If your heart is set on an orchestra job, and I agree totally with others you should find out if that is even for you, lot of musicians see that as being tied down to something rather than beeing what they want, then programs like Rice and CIM are very ensemble oriented and IMO can give you a leg up when going for orchestra jobs ( ensemble experience varies from school to school, and there are some supposedly top music schools where the chamber and orchestra program turned out to be shockingly bad, despite the reputation of the school), because they focus on it as well as demanding teachers that you play well. Not a guarantee, but nothing in music is guaranteed, all you can do is work as hard as you can to your passion and evaluate along the way. Same thing is true by the way for other career paths, if everyone who thought they wanted to be a doctor, started in pre med, ended up becoming a doctor, the world would be flooded with doctors and the job would pay about as well as Wal-Mart lol.

11

Great posts on a topic that can be very tricky, especially if a student is talented but not quite ready to go “all in.” One example of an instrumentalist who began as a double-degree, then dropped one, is the famous violinist Jennifer Koh. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Koh

Interestingly, she dropped the conservatory degree at Oberlin because she wanted to study other subjects in the college. (Graduated with only a BA).

All in all, I agree with @musicprnt 's main caution: doing two degrees out of a sense of duty – or anything short of true passion for both – will probably not lead to a fulfilling experience.

12

We toured Thornton the other day, and they are very flexible at USC – they encourage minors and double majors. Congrats on all your acceptances! My good friend is the principal violist at a major symphony and she works very hard and loves her job.

13

LaddyMeowMeow, actually Jennifer Koh had a Diploma degree from Oberlin Conservatory, as cited from The Kennedy Center’s website: “In addition to receiving a performance diploma in music from the Oberlin Conservatory, Ms. Koh also holds a bachelor’s degree in English literature from Oberlin, and maintains a continuing interest in writing and literature.”

14

@musicwind Thank you, I stand corrected! Since Jennifer Koh doesn’t have the BMus, I thought she only had the BA. Here’s the description of what she does have. (This doesn’t seem quite like hijacking the thread, since it shows another option out there for students to pursue music and academics.)

PERFORMANCE DIPLOMA
The Performance Diploma Program
This four-semester program, offered only in certain performance departments, is designed for the very small number of gifted performers who have not yet completed the BMus or its equivalent and who are seeking a very narrowly focused program of study leading to a performance-oriented career. Performance Diploma students may apply to transfer to the Bachelor of Music program before the end of the first year of the program. Students seeking admission to the BMus degree must demonstrate skills necessary to complete both the performance and academic coursework required for the BMus.

Students who have completed requirements for both the BMus degree and the Performance Diploma will receive only the BMus degree.
http://catalog.oberlin.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=30&poid=3642&returnto=643

15

A performance diploma is usually tailored strictly to playing music, it doesn’t have the level of requirements for things like theory and ear training that a BM has (in many places they call this an ‘artists diploma’), in my experience usually it is people already past the level of playing a typical BM student would come out with wanting to polish up their playing, a lot of the AD kids in the violin world were kids already playing with orchestras and some has artists managment.

16

In voice, I have seen the PD or AD used AFTER undergrad studies. So you can get a BA and then a PD.

However, all PDs or ADs, that I knew, did have “professional” experience (which is difficult to get without a BM or MM). The most important words above are “the very small number of gifted performers”. Many PDs that I saw came out of foreign countries and had already performed professionally. The fact that a BM is not required may reflect some exceptional talent from overseas with different types of degrees or even rare talent within the states which was developed in a non-standard way. The PD is often used to attract exceptional talent that will enhance the school’s image. The "students’ often used it in voice to enhance their English language skills and professional contacts.

Now all schools are different (and by instrument too most likely). But I would be sure to look at the backgrounds of PD/AD students at individual schools to be sure this is truly a path to “music study”. My experience is that it is more a “pit stop” of continued professional development for gifted performers. The course work is light with the expectation that you will perform a lot. If you are “remarkably gifted” many path and many doors can open in many ways for you, but for the “simply gifted and talented” a more conventional BM/MM or BA/MM would probably be more realistic. And then who knows…maybe you will be “recruited” to do a PD.

17

A few very high level players get ADs or PDs in lieu of BMs, but most who get these degrees have already completed MMs.

18

Thank you so much for all of your answers, this has been so helpful! Does anyone know anything about Vernon as a teacher, and his personality? I’ve never met him myself, but I’ve heard that he can be harsh and a bit egotistical; however, I’ve also heard that he can get people jobs and that he’s an excellent teacher. Just wondering if it might be too much to deal with for 4 years

19

My daughter didn’t go to CIM but she played in some masterclasses with him and thought he was terrific. I’d say, especially if you are interested in an orchestra job, you can’t go wrong with an excellent teacher who can help you when you are looking for a job.

20

Most violists would consider it an honor to study with Vernon.

I think you need to get away from the idea that a degree us going to “qualify” you for an orchestra job. No orchestra cares about your degree(s). If it is noted at all, it will be at the point you submit a request for an audition for an advertised opening with resume. Some orchestras do screen the resumes before granting an audition slot and take note of where you studied, who you studied with, previous professional experience, competition wins, etc. Other orchestras, even major ones, take all comers on a first come, first served basis. Some orchestras ask for a playing sample first before giving candidates lacking stellar resumes an audition time. Is there someone you can talk with about realities of getting an orchestral position?

You need to think in terms of a BM (or MM or AD) as providing you with the intensive study to bring your playing to a professional level which would put you in a pool with others similarly qualified to be of interest to orchestras holding viola auditions. Even after reaching that level, employment is not guarenteed.
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