Wait...hold on...aid is a gift not a right

Paying for College
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<p>Or, I can use the products of my education wisely and rationally to combat this type of thinking. Financial aid is most definitely a gift-- one I am extremely grateful for. But it’s a gift that operates in a pretty well-ordered, well-defined space, and it’s there aren’t that many surprises in that space. The model produces a EFC where it is expected that parents have saved for the last eighteen years for college; nobody is expected, not even full-pay students, to take $60k/yr from their paychecks. The expectation is that you’ve saved and that education is a priority in the family coffers. If that’s not the case, that’s where the problem lies. Not with the school that is ‘punishing’ a family who makes 160/200k/yr.</p>

<p>You’ve mentioned your son couldn’t go to schools where the FA didn’t work out; I simply didn’t apply to schools where I knew my parents couldn’t afford. That’s the truly rational, mature thing to do. </p>

<p>My parents are unable to pay for the cost of my education (heck, my parents couldn’t even pay for tuition at the IS flagship, if we’re going to be honest, though I have much more affordable public option closer to me). Thankfully, I live in a society where some schools who provide an exceptional education believe it is an institutional priority to use some of their endowed funds to give students who can’t afford that prices a chance.</p>

<p>However, things aren’t flowers and roses for students receiving financial aid. The families that receive financial aid are families where money is a concern as well (just like it is for upper-middle-class families), and whatever EFC amount is calulated needs to be met. The rhetoric that upper middle-class posters are being ‘punished’ for saving (and earlier on in this thread, against ‘irresponsible’ families) simply isn’t true.</p>

<p>Financial aid is a gift. But it’s a gift that tries to make it a little easier for students whose families truly don’t have the means to afford a world-class education. Do I ‘deserve’ it? Yes, in a way. (She said she ‘deserves’ aid? After her! Now!)</p>

<p>In some sense, the school publishes calculators and their rules for how they give out their own, private institutional funds, funded by donors (actually, mostly by investment of their endowment funds). I had the stats to get into a school that meets full need, and the school gave out a financial aid package that follows those rules. So yes, I ‘deserved’ that package. If you don’t like these rules that private colleges set out, well, that’s another problem.</p>

<p>But for a family making ~65k/yr before retirement funding and after taxes, 16% of that amount is a large amount. There seems to be this idea that kids who receive financial aid are suddenly ‘in the clear,’ and they should stop whining about their packages. But the families that are receiving substantial aid packages have financial difficulties that extend beyond how much their child is receiving for college, and even families of modest means are affected, even with a ‘fabulous’ aid package.</p>

<p>I’m not going to be ashamed about my aid package (in the sense that I suppose ‘rattling my tin cup’ was supposed to reduce me to). I certainly don’t think I deserve more or that schools should give me more, and I recognize that I am extraordinarily blessed to have parents who feel my education is a priority. But this is in one way that America higher education is trying to lower the growing income disparity in this country (by making this education available to lower incomes as well, thus boosting earning potential) and promote a society that doesn’t villanize the poor, and that empowers me, just a little bit.</p>

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I had a good laugh when I read this. <em>rattle rattle</em></p>

<p>purple, that was some wall of text there. One thing in reply to your post is: Middle class families struggle to pay bills, as well.</p>

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<p>Nonsense. It’s an investment.</p>

<p>My undergrad education at Cal was paid for in large part with aid from the federal government (subsidized loans and work study), state government (Cal Grants) and institutional scholarships (I tried to write a thank-you note to the Hearst family but no one could tell me where to send the thank you). If you look at my tax returns and my donations you’ll see that it was an excellent investment. That’s one way that I pay it forward. I received a financial helping hand. I want to extend that same hand to students starting out along the same path. Because it’s a good investment. </p>

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<p>I have no idea what’s meant here by “unable to properly cover the costs”, but it sounds suspiciously like the assumption that the onus for paying is entirely on the family, no matter how large the tuition bill is nor how modest the family’s financial circumstances.</p>

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<p>Well, at least we have free public education for K-12 in this country paid for by collective taxes so that we don’t have to argue about whether or not kids have earned the right to attend high school. Though,…in my state right now there is some heated disagreement about whether to move forward on expanding trials that use tax money to give kids a free PRIVATE school education when public schools are lacking.</p>

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<p>Financial aid is a gift to all of us. Who the hell else do you think is going to pay your social security?</p>

<p>We’re already down to something like 7 workers per 1 SS recipient. Our reproduction levels have fallen below repopulation, and you are saying, “Financial aid is a gift.” You are right, but it is a gift to all of us, not just the family being given the aid.</p>

<p>This is how I feel and my family is full pay. People on here are a bit harsh with the kids, imho.</p>

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This is the only statement that I have a problem with. We don’t qualify for aid, but both S and D applied to schools that we could not afford without significant merit awards. We were hopeful, based on information provided on the school websites, that they would get such merit awards at these schools. But it was not a given. According to your premise they were “irrational and immature” to even bother trying. </p>

<p>Posters whom you are criticizing with this statement did not know in advance that they would not get enough aid. That was not clear to them from what information they had available - otherwise why bother applying? I see nothing irrational or immature with making your best attempt if the outcome is not clear in advance (i.e. why would a student with an SAT of 1300 total and a GPA of 2.5 and no hooks apply to Stanford?).</p>

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<p>Of course its a gift to the person who gets the aid. That gift does nothing for me or anybody else. And not only that, that person receiving the gift is taking the spot of a person in that school who might otherwise be willing to pay full freight, who would also be contributing to the Social Security System upon being employed. </p>

<p>Not being hard on these kids. I personally believe that the schools have the right and maybe some sort of obligation to help some of the disadvantaged. But they should at least be grateful instead of feeling somehow entitled.</p>

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<p>So only people who made enough during their work life to save for the education of their students “earn” their seat at the top schools? This is absurd as the tax-free status of prep schools that mostly educate the wealthy (with a few token financial aid recipients). Maybe we should have a monarchy, to get rid of that pesky upward mobility.</p>

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<p>This is shoddy critical thinking. The other full pay kid will go to college, regardless. We are after MORE educated students, not just the same number of educated citizens from educated families. They don’t need to be “grateful,” in the way that implies, but they don’t need to be “entitled,” either.</p>

<p>There is a middle ground.</p>

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<p>I have issues with the tax breaks and the government aid that private schools get, Oldmom. But what it comes down to, is that the private schools are just that, and that so many of the top colleges in this country are private is something that I believe should be worked upon. But private they are, and so there is no real “right” to go to them. The government gives us the opportunity to borrow with its backing so that if anyone gets into these schools, if the parent wants to borrow the money to do, than s/he can. </p>

<p>It’s getting so the top flagship schools are expensive too, and many come no where close to guaranteeing to meet full need. I’d like to see that addressed as UMich and UVA have done.</p>

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<p>It should be noted that not every family paying full pay today comes from wealth and privilege. There are many of us who came to the US as young immigrants owning nothing but the clothes on our backs and through massive self sacrifice, incredibly hard work and long hours, and saving every penny put ourselves in the position to pay for our own children’s college expenses. Although I realize many people try hard and do not succeed in doing so, I respect people who do live way below their means so that they can pay for their own and children’s expenses and choose not to rely on funding from others. </p>

<p>Maybe this is a dying attitude, but my family has always been fiercely independent, doing what we have to in order to take care of ourselves, our children, our extended family, and those in our community who really need our help. Isn’t this what our American culture used to be?</p>

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<p>Very few people begrudge low income families any financial aid that they receive, but it is absolutely a gift and anyone receiving it should be grateful. I certainly don’t have a problem with them receiving additional assistance based on their family’s financial situation, but FA isn’t “earned” in ANY way, shape or form. While a student has certainly “earned” their admission into a particular school with stats/ECs/etc. and they’ve “earned” any merit scholarships they might be offered, that is where any semblance of a “right” ends and the “gift” begins.</p>

<p>Anyone who says they “deserve” something because they worked hard in HS or because their family’s financial situation is worse than someone else is ABSOLUTELY showing a sense of entitlement. Even when looking at admissions or merit money, no one “deserves” those things. You worked hard, you performed well, you earned the chance to be considered for admission or merit money…but earning something doesn’t mean you’re always going to get it. There is no guarantee that hard work and strong performance will get you what you want…or that someone else won’t get it instead of you. The only guarantee is that if you DON’T work hard and perform well, you won’t (or at least shouldn’t) get those opportunities. </p>

<p>Suck it up buttercup…life isn’t fair. Never has been…never will be. Be grateful for whatever opportunities you’re granted and make the most of them. The word “rights” is thrown around WAY too much these days. There is no “right” to a college education period, and there certainly isn’t any “right” to have your entire financial need gap (as defined by you, the school, FAFSA, or whomever) covered by a university, or the taxpayers of your state, or a private corporation, or any combination thereof…regardless of your personal financial situation or the size of said gap. </p>

<p>This whole thread came about as a result of several postings (common this time of year as the “selective” and “elite” schools finally send out FA offers) with students/parents whining about the unfairness of their FA offers. There are WAY too many people in this country that have the mindset that “I/my child is too good/worked too hard/etc. to attend…” and this leads to poor planning on their part. If you want to take your shot at whatever “elite” school floats your boat go right ahead…but do it with your eyes open and a sense of realism as opposed to idealism. The end goal is to get the best AFFORDABLE education you have available to you…whatever that turns out to be. Be grateful for the opportunity, and any gifts you received that helped you get that opportunity.</p>

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<p>^^^^^^ exactly. These people need to remember that every dollar being given to them is a dollar somebody else has to provide to them. That every seat they take is seat that could have been taken by somebody else. Why they would whine instead of be grateful for what they get is certainly not supposed to be the America Way, is it?</p>

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<p>Except your version of upward mobility is having somebody else hand it to you on a silver platter rather than getting it for yourself.</p>

<p>My FAFSA requires that I contribute $99,999 to my daughter’s education this year. I am not complaining, because I have been successful and thus have significant assets and income. Still, I am not happy about the fact that to send my daughter to the same private colleges others are attending, I would be paying full freight . . 50K plus, versus these families getting it for 5K or so. Their daughter is intelligent. My daughter is intelligent. The difference is my daughter has elected to go to a public school because she thinks its ridiculous that we spend so much for an undergraduate education. Their daughter gets to go to this Private College instead. . . and yet some of you are still complaining and have this sense of entitlement.</p>

<p>As I said before, if a poor child wants to get an education, they can do so in this country. They can join the Military. They can start at a community college and work. They can take a gap year or two and work. And if an elite private school wants to pay them for the privilege of attending their school . . . more power to them. BUT NOTHING IS DESERVED AS A MATTER OF COURSE.</p>

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SIUB…LIF - I think this should be an acronym (for the quoted phrase) for use in the finaid forum when the buttercups come a whinin’.</p>

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<p>Thank you DDHM! Middle class mom here paying full ride for her kid. I had tons of loans to put myself through school. No silver spoon for my generation or for my kids. Like Wolverine, I don’t begrudge low income families getting reasonable FA. What I don’t like is the expectation that every kids deserves a private education at an expensive school! If I had not been in a position to pay for my kids’ top choices (which I am blessed to do by always working and saving and working until I am a little bit older), I would have them looking at schools with merit aid, state options, CC, living at home, working more, etc. Even if my kids work hard and have a dream, why should anyone else pay for my kid to go to an expensive school? A kid can get a job and contribute to society (including taxes to support all of us future old folks) without a $200,000+ degree.</p>

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<p>I was a top student (3.9 GPA, 34 ACT) back in high school but did not attend college. At the time I was an emancipated minor with less that 5K in income a year and putting myself through high school. I attended 4 different High Schools, 2 of them my senior year. I did not even know that financial aid for college was available nor how to go about applying to college. I joined the military and during a 23 year career earned an AA, AS, BS, MBA, and MS degree. In retrospect, I did benefit from military tuition aid but do consider it earned aid. Maybe I would feel differently if I had had all that wonderful financial aid “invested” in me back when I was standing there with a high school diploma and not a clue what I should do next. My opinions are based on my experiences. It is possible to find a way to obtain an education. It may not be at a “dream” school. I consider need-based financial aid as a hand-out. I do not think education is a right…it is earned through hard work and talent and by people paying their way. Go ahead and call need-based aid an investment, or a benefit for society as a whole, or whatever excuse one would need to justify being a lamprey eel suckling on taxpayer funded charity…all I hear is the tin cup…rattle…rattle…rattle.</p>

<p>Ideally, advanced education should also be fully funded. Except in that case it should be based solely on merit and not need. As a society we do need to educate the best and the brightest. A system of trade schools would also go a long way in providing a properly trained workforce. Not everyone needs or deserves to go to college. In the absence of that they should (if qualified based on merit) be trained for a trade. The rest? Well there are plenty of wage grade jobs that need workers also. Go dream on your own dime.</p>

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<p>It sounds like you had a raw deal. I’m sorry that you apparently had no familial or societal support. I too was a top student with high stats who worked all through high school and college. It appears that the crucial factor was having people around me–parents, friends, teachers, counselors–who were kind, knowledgeable and helpful. </p>

<p>Your solution is that since you went through a rough deal that everyone else can sink or swim.</p>

<p>My solution is that we hand out lifejackets, and give swimming lessons to those who never learned.</p>

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<p>It certainly is worth considering but it seems like there should be a better way than the wasteful system currently in place. I don’t feel like i had that rough of a deal. It was my own particualr life situation…it was mine and I owned it. Yet I still found a way to overcome and succeed. In some ways I think my particular difficulties shaped me to be more self-reliant and confident that I could overcome adversity. On the flip side , I also find that I am less emphatetic to others claiming hardship and then expecting others to solve their problems for them.</p>

<p>To expand on your swimming analogy, I would probably just tell people they should to jump into the water…then its up to them to either swim or sink to the bottom. Well perhaps not entirely…</p>

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<p>Slithey…What irritates many folks is when you offer a lifejacket to someone and instead of being happy about not drowning, they instead complain that the lifejacket isn’t as comfortable as they were expecting…and someone else got the nice model and color they REALLY wanted. And gee…how come I have to take swimming lessons in the local community pool? I REALLY want to swim in an Olympic sized heated pool and have Egyptian cotton towels to dry myself off with.</p>

<p>Many people who taught themselves to swim and dried off with their own t-shirts don’t have a lot of patience with those who look a gift horse in the mouth…then complain that their horse isn’t “Derby quality”. Analogies work both ways…even mixed ones. :)</p>

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<p>This is true for my personal history and perceptions, as well. I tend to assume that people are working as hard as they can, that they’re willing to put in the effort to reach their goals, and that they are generally glad for the opportunity. We’re probably both right and wrong. :slight_smile: The trick, of course, is to make sure that the carrots and sticks get appropriately awarded. Not so easy, and certainly no foolproof way to manage it!</p>

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<p>Jewish religious law mandates that a parent teach their child a trade and also how to swim. That means that the parents get to deal with their children complaining about the temperature of the water and the scratchy towels. The problem is with the kids who were raised by non-swimmers, or people without easy access to swimming lessons. I’ve seen those kids at pool parties, where they suddenly lose their footing and slip below the water surface. Again, no easy solution. :(</p>