wanting the best education for your child(ren) is a good thing

<p>This thread is interesting, it shows how wide a range of perspectives there are out there (which is not a bad thing, for a lot of reasons). I agree with the posters, in many ways what we are seeing with kids from Asian backgrounds mirror what happened with the Jews, among other groups, and a lot of that has to do with being immigrants from places where quite frankly opportunities are limited, and competition is fierce, and to get anywhere takes a lot of effort. Yes, more then a few Asians in past generations came here as grad students in highly educated fields, I went to school with their children, and that culture was passed down to their kids. In the last 30 years, it has gotten a lot broader, as anti Asian immigration laws were repealed and you started seeing more ‘traditional’ immigrants, poor people who started with nothing as so many immigrants did. And as one poster wrote about his family, a lot of these recent immigrants are not rich, they work tough jobs in restaurants and the like or own small businesses, and they have to work incredibly hard to support their families, and they like the Jews and other groups, want their kids to succeed, and they believe there is nothing that is going to do that but hard work and getting a good education. And from what I can tell as with the Jews there are both strong family networks and extended networks in the community (In my dad’s era growing up, in the 30’s, Temples didn’t just exist as religious centers, it was a social network within the local community. Besides going there to learn hebrew, Jewish kids also if they were having trouble with something might go there to get tutoring from an older boy or member of the congregation, and so forth). </p>

<p>The other thing that Asians have is a perspective that their kids education has to take priority, whatever the kid is doing, and it is very different attitude then many people in this country have (and I am speaking as both a non Asian and as someone who was born and raised here). For many people, school is sending your kid to public school, and maybe making sure the kid does assignments and paperwork, and their view is basically “education is up to the schools” and their involvement in my experience is limited to going to back to school night and the like and that if the kid goes to school, and the teacher teaches ‘the right things’ and the kid does his work, well, everything will be fine. Likewise, to suggest to parents that education go beyond the school (other then maybe with things like sports) would be looked at askance, whereas with many Asians these are assumed. Whether it be programs like Kumon or special programs, to many Asians these are essential to their kids success (again, in part, because in countries like China and India and Japan and Korea, your future is decided by exams, that track where you go, and getting the highest marks on these tests literally sets your future if what I read about and studied in grad school still holds). In those places, parents scrape up the money for schools designed to get their kids to the head of the list, and it continues on here. Sometimes it seems on the deep end, I have seen parents fly their kids in from the west coast to attend weekly music programs on the other coast, and the like. (And before someone thinks I am bashing native born US people, I am not, believe me, there are a lot of crazy parents doing similar things with their kids, I am talking generalities here). If it means working long hours, giving up things a lot of people consider necessities, like fancy cars or fancy homes or vacations, Asians IME are more willing to do that, because they put so much hope on education for a better future. </p>

<p>Like any stereotype, though, the image of the hyper-excelling Asians, of the ‘model minority’ is as bad in its positiveness as negative stereotypes are for others. As these are positive stereotypes, few will deny them, and frankly more then a few Asians will make out like this is a solid fact across the board, because no one likes to discuss the negative side, any more then some people want to discuss the negative sides of big time college sports. But Asians (which as a general term is problematic, since Chinese and Koreans and Indians and Pakistanis et al are not monolithic, and even within those groups there are differences based on local culture and so forth, as anywhere else) are fully human, and there are things that aren’t often discussed either. </p>

<p>The incredible pressure put on kids to succeed, especially when a family pools its resources to help the one ‘promised child succeed’ doesn’t always produce success. With this pressure comes a cost, kids burn out, rebel, some end up drifting, others can’t take the pressure and attempt or are successful at suicide. Others end up questioning what they are doing, and have a hard time finding themselves, or go along with the life they kind of have been ordained for but end up miserable. Likewise, there are ills within Asian communities, like gangs and organized crime, things we normally would associate with ‘less model’ minorities and so forth.The other negative side is this single minded obsession with grades and test scores can work as a negative as well, because life is a lot more then simply getting good grades and then you succeed. You can get through school with spectacular grades and get the degrees, but is that person going to be able to work with others, or to create new things? When applying to a school, if all they bring are perfect SAT’s, more then a few AP’s and a 4.x GPA, are they going to bring something to the school environment? These are real questions, and sometimes the way kids are driven to succeed might in fact fail…</p>

<p>I think the other thing we have to be careful with is looking things at the perspective of a single generation, and when doing so with immigrants, the first thought is to think like “these people aren’t going to fit in”. One of the things to remember is few groups I can think of, of any of the waves of immigrants we have seen, have failed both to put their mark on the country and also to adopt to it. I disagree with some, who argue that Asian kids sacrifice their lives to be super students, I think that is a rule that doesn’t bear close scrutiny. Especially with kids who were born here, I see more of a hybrid model, where the math science geek also does sports, or activities, or band, etc, play little league and the like. I think the image others are giving is probably more prevalent, if my experience holds, with the kids of recent immigrants and kids who weren’t born here, from what I can tell like with academics a lot of the Asian kids seem to embrace what we often see as ‘being american’ more vigorously then I certainly did:). From everything I am seeing and hearing in fact, from my more then a few Asian friends, acquaintances and colleagues, I hear the same complaints about their kids I heard growing up, complaining that the kids are lazy, don’t want to do the work they should, they want to play video games and hang out, etc…I am not sure that the work ethic and the view of education and success is going to die out completely, or where it more matches ‘the average’ out there, but it definitely gets tempered by being American. And these kids, when they grow up and have their own family, are not as likely to push their kids into material success, they are going to be more open to the view that success is measured many ways; some of them may have wanted to study philosophy, but instead became a doctor or engineer, and therefore might be more willing to see their kid do what interests them…</p>

<p>The other thing that tempers things is when the next generation starts realizing that opportunity in this country is a very different kind of beast, that because of the nature of our society things like grades and what college you went to are not necessarily an indicator of success, that for example a lot of CEO’s of big companies did not go to Ivy league schools and the like and still succeed, they finally figure out that getting into Harvard or Yale or MIT, while it is an accomplishment, doesn’t guarantee success (as opposed to, for example, Japan, where what university you get into to a large part dictates your success down the road) and that once you are out there, things like SAT scores and GPA’s basically mean next to nothing once you have a track record out there, if someone shows they have the skills and work ethic and whatnot to do the work and create and get ahead. Yes, there are jobs where what school you went to does matter (investment banking, some law firms) but they are not the majority, and it becomes apparent when you see people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, who never even graduated from college and what they did;)</p>

<p>And btw, despite popular stereotypes, it isn’t like Asians and Jews were the only ones like this, believe me, though it might work out differently, most immigrants had similar concepts tempered by their own experiences and cultures. Think about Lou Gehrig, and the kind of work ethic he had, and you get the drift. The problem is most of us grew up where there just weren’t a large group of immigrants coming into the country or are separated from immigrant roots enough that we never faced that, so we see in this case Asians and the work ethic and such and say “wow, where did that come”…and want my guess? Give it another 20 or 30 years and the descendants of this group will look at newcomers and say “wow, look at what they do”…:)</p>

<p>Brooklynborndad, I was once reminded on this forum that I needed to capitalize the word, Jewish, so …you did that, but not other similarly words.</p>

<h1>99 - We are Americans. I was born and raised here ok?</h1>

<p>^ Look back at my posts: I’ve mostly used terms like “non-Asian Americans” so as not to imply that Asians were not Americans also. However, the very topic of this thread (started by an Asian-American I think) establishes a dichotomy between Asian educational and career success and that of non-Asians. Thus, this discussion is not an inclusive one about a broad concept of American success, is it? So being viewed as a distinct entity from other Americans is OK when it shows you as somehow superior? I notice you didn’t object to the distinction 6 pages ago!</p>

<p>Also, recent posts have mentioned immigrants. For example, when hyeonjlee uses words like “influx”, that assumes a previous externality and non-belonging. So no offense was intended by me.</p>

<p>great post musicprnt</p>

<p>Miamidap…I do not believe that Chinese people are adapting to America. Most Chinese people if they are honest will tell you that they have little desire to adapt to American culture. Most Chinese families view American children as a poor influence on their children and are very concerned that their children will become interested in television, playing outdoors, and sports. That is not to say that Chinese people view sports in a negative way they just do not see any purpose for it and to most it is viewed as a terrible distraction to learning. I can’t say that I disagree when I see American kids involved in sport practices 4 to 5 days a week and games one day of each weekend. The sports have taken over the lives of many American families (maybe not CC families) and instead of stressing academics too many Americans are disrupting family time with running multiple children to multiple practices all week long. Families are not eating dinner together and there is not enough down time. From what I can see the Chinese community is using what would be down time to ensure the success of their children.</p>

<p>My husband and I are from the opposite corners of the world, both first generation immigrants. He is Jewish, and I am an Asian. The kids are being raised as Jews. Education, learning at all ages and dong one’s best constitute a prevailing value system in our household. However, that is not same as putting kids through a daily grinder of math and science tutoring, and depriving them of all other kinds of activities. Rather, it is reflected on the life choices we make on a day to day basis. </p>

<p>I remember one day when we came back from a trip overseas. The plane landed at 4 AM. We got home around 6 AM. I knew that the kids slept during the long Trans Pacific flight. So, I said, “no biggie. Get your school bag ready. You are going to school and I am going to work”. The woman who was taking care of my kids during those years was horrified. From her perspective, what I was doing was a borderline child abuse. </p>

<p>My S1 NEVER got a lesson or tutor for ANYTHING. He was completely left alone to find what he wants to do with his life. S2 is getting tutoring help for his SAT math now that it’s down to wire. Wouldn’t you know it? In a Asian/Jewish household, he had the unfortunate luck of being born after his big brother used up the family quota of math and science genes.</p>

<p>Much to my initial shock and later a “reluctant pride”, this S2 will become a career Army officer. He went to quasi boot camps for teenagers (sponsored by the military) every summer for a few years, and went to a military summer camp overseas. </p>

<p>Regardless of the individual choices, and regardless of whether they got this and that math and science tutoring and lessons or not, it’s, fundamentally, the abiding culture and value system of the family kids grow up in that influences their choices. </p>

<p>For both of my kids, one thing that was clearly communicated to them, not in so many words, but as a way of life practiced everyday by his own parents and choices we made as a family, was that settling down at a comfortable level of personal mediocrity while their potential is much greater was simply not an option. Please note the word “personal mediocrity”. One person’s personal mediocrity may be another’s personal best, and visa versa. I am for “personal” best, not absolute best. </p>

<p>I encourage the mainstream “Americans” to look beyond the surface phenomenon of Asian kids who are forced through the endless math lessons and what not, while they are not allowed to “play outdoors”. The real difference is much more abiding cultural value system that is not obvious to the outsiders who do not have a very nuanced and in depth understanding of their culture, history, and values. </p>

<p>By the way, I am in NO way insinuating that Asians single handedly monopolize this value system. I am saying, though, that all data points that it seems more frequently observed in that group and the Jews (much more so during the earlier part of last century than now), and it is the main variable that explains their meteoric rise (comparatively speaking) in the socio economic ladder. </p>

<p>A joke I heard the other day. What’s the difference between the first generation (Koreans, Chinese, Indians, you pick) and the second generation?? The answer “the distance between the garment district and Fifth avenue”.</p>

<p>An anecdote to illustrate the educational rat-race that has begun in my neck of the woods: An Asian American friend of mine e-mailed me this week to ask my advice about the most advantageous timing for the taking of SAT 2’s. Her son is ready to take Math 1 and Physics, but she’s not sure if she should wait a while longer to register him for the exams. His age? 11</p>

<p>This Asian lady is crazy AND VERY ILL INFORMED. Does she even know what SAT II is for? Perhaps she heard somewhere that there is a such a test and thought her kid should take it to prove something? I have the feeling that this is a result of ignorance rather than hyperactive academic zeal.</p>

<p>Or, maybe the kid is a genius and starting college at the age of 12 - there are those too, you know.</p>

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<p>It is absurd for someone to start a thread about the special qualities of a particular ethnic, cultural or religious group (or fraternity, or type of student who attends a college or fill in the blank) and expect a reasonable discussion. Why? Because we are perfectly capable of making all kinds of positive generalizations to which we gleefully applaud (kids at such and such school are sharp, this group is so hard working, these folks value some-positive-attribute), but the minute one makes a negative generalization, it’s called bogus- we can’t make generalizations! I know people that do not fit the stereotype!- or worse, it’s offensive, stereotyping, and bigoted. </p>

<p>There are absolutely no mean differences between any groups of individuals, of any kind, so really we should just stop talking about them! I have absolutely no idea why we even bother to travel, or why some folks spend their lives examining cross-cultural differences. :)</p>

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<p>Sorry, now that I remember, I misstated. He did get electric guitar lessons and snow boarding lessons - both his choice and he paid for them out of the gift money he received from his grandparents :)</p>

<p>TheGFG…I know of many Chinese kids who have either taken the SAT’s or plan on taking them this year and they are in 6th, 7th, and 8th grade. One child plans on taking it twice because his mother wants him to have as much practice as possible before the scores will count.</p>

<p><em>Googles the median income of Cambodia</em></p>

<p>All I can do is per capita… $2,084 (PPP)</p>

<p>Don’t mean those Asians?</p>

<p><em>Googles per capita income of China</em></p>

<p>$7,518 (PPP)</p>

<p>It drives me crazy when, over and over, people don’t look a little deeper into statistics. Especially statistics related to “wealth = intelligence” or some other form of Social Darwinism. I’m not saying that wealth does not equal, or infer, intelligence, only that you can not ASSUME the correlation on the bald facts. Life is far more complicated, with far more variables to allow that kind of simplicity to be true. </p>

<p>If I were in a crankier mood, I would consider starting a thread that would say “Assuming statistics on their face value, without scratching the surface more than a microfilament in depth, means you have less intelligence. I don’t care about money or race, it means you’re a dumba$$”</p>

<p>^Okay, if that was directed at me, I merely posted some facts, which serve to imply that we ought not to try to use median income of Asian Americans to judge Asian culture.</p>

<p>If it was directed at someone else, then never mind.</p>

<p>Not directed at anyone in particular…</p>

<p>^^ That would be an interesting thread, greenwitch. </p>

<p>When people start bashing our educational system, they forget we have the best universities, most Nobel Laureates, and the lead in science and technology. Focusing on standard test scores is not one of the reasons why we are in the leading position, and those with higher scores after years of practice won’t keep us in the leading position.</p>

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<p>Right on. However, you wanna bet what the statistics/rankings of the American Universities, Nobel Laureates, and the lead in science and technology we will be left with if we exclude the achievements of the folks who are first generation or second generation immigrants? Those first and second generation immigrants who mightily contributed to that statistics during a large part of the 20th century century were Jews. Now, it’s Asians. </p>

<p>I listened to NPR announcements list a couple of days of of a Nobel Winner in Purdue - Chemist? Based on his last name and accent, clearly he was a first generation immigrant from Asia. As I mentioned previously, that “lead in science and technology” will simply vanish if all the first and second generations Asians pack up and leave the country. </p>

<p>Trust me on this, I am in high tech, and sometimes when I walk into a meeting, I feel like I am attending an Asian American Association meeting with cameo appearances of a few Jews (a slight exaggeration, but not much, especially if it’s an engineering meeting with younger set people). Check the roster of the kids who are on the finalist list of the Intel Science competition. It’s majority Asian last names with a few Jewish names thrown in for a variety’s sake. This is the future face of the leadership of the American Science and Technology elites. </p>

<p>Now, looking at the roster of the highly selective business training program at U of Chicago, I can see that the business world is no exception. Already, top MBA programs are 1/3rd Asians. Asians are way over represented at Ivies and similar schools. Go to the state university Honor Program, they are inundated with the Asian kids. So, give them 20 years. You are looking at the face of the 21st American upper echelon, and it’s looking increasing yellow. </p>

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<p>you are right here also. Except, those who score so well are the same people who go on to give to you that “lead in science and technology and nobel prize” that you are so proud of as uniquely American achievement. So, you can dismiss as much as you want the kids who achieve higher scores after years of practice. Whether you like it or that, they will be your kids’ bosses. </p>

<p>All in all, American society is better off with these high achievers. Any society that is content at watching their standards being lowered to the level of mediocrity is a society on their way out.</p>

<p>Maybe you don’t mean to sound this way, but posts like the above seem deliberately threatening and demeaning, if not imperialistic. You seem to be saying “Watch out, because our yellow people will one day be the bosses of all you white people who didn’t study hard.,” and your society is “on the way out.” In addition, for someone who claims that Asians have assimilated and are Americans too, your posts set your ethnic group apart and above other Americans. You keep on implying that your culture stresses achievement more than ours. Excuse me, but the United States did not become a world leader and economic superpower–a place that’s so attractive to immigrants from around the globe–just recently since the arrival of Asians on our shores. Our founding fathers, for example, were extremely bright and visionary people. So were men like Franklin, Edison, and Ford. American workers have led the world in productivity for years. It’s just that since World War II our economic success has brought some complacency and ease to our lifestyle. It wasn’t that way for my parents’ generation. They lived through the Depression and struggled to earn and save enough. Their parents worked hard in our farms and factories. Your cultural patterns will change with prosperity too, and in fact they already have. The China of today is vastly different from what it was even 20 years ago.</p>

<p>I posted something to like Dad II’s topic but without the reference to ethnicity. He gets 100+ replies and couple of thousand reads. I get a few reads and NO replies. My post is now 4 pages down near the cellar on Oct 8 and original post on Oct 5… But in hopes of a couple of hits, I am going to force you to look, it not reply. </p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1009383-opportunity-value-education.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1009383-opportunity-value-education.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>getting the best education for your child(ren) may not be appreciated.</p>

<p>why would I want to sound threatening to Americans’ and America? I CHOSE to come and live here. I love this country more than the country I was born and raised during the first 21 years of my life. I think my children are fortunate to be born Americans. “MY” culture is American culture, as much as American culture is an amalgam of all the things various people bring with them from where they came from. Remember: America is fundamentally an immigration society. The only original dwellers are American Indians. I pointed out that since Asian kids work harder, they are more likely to be part of the elite society. If that sounds like a “threat”, well, so be it. </p>

<p>My reaction is mostly to the sentiment expressed by people who think they are the pall bears of “authentic American culture” who believe in “well rounded” (actually, sometimes, this is used as a justification for /euphemism of a mediocrity) development of their children and feel that all these recent immigrants who are hyperactively wrapped up in academic success and what not are somehow not to be respected for what they are, what they represent, and what they contribute. All this snickering remarks about kids who only know how to score well after years of practice in test taking etc are unfortunate, condescending, patronizing, and ultimately detrimental to the continuing success of this country. </p>

<p>I just read a report showing that American kids are ranking pretty low in math and science among 30 developed nations (more or less at the bottom of the heap). This is pretty alarming. American prosperity and superiority of the 20th century is not going to be maintained at this rate. </p>

<p>You mention the founding fathers and how brilliant they are. That’s over two hundred years ago. Their brilliance does not carry the day anymore in this hyper globalizing world where all the software engineering is done in India and all the sophisticated high tech manufacturing is done in Taiwan and China. </p>

<p>Instead of mocking and being condescending toward Asian kids as trained test takers, the rest of the American population should think hard on why we are now at the bottom of the heap among 30 top nations when it comes to vital intellectual capital of the nation. And, I am glad for my children’s and their children’s sake, that there is this vibrant segment of the population that considers hard work and achievement (academic or otherwise) as an important part of their value system. They play a very important role in keeping this country from sliding into mediocrity.</p>