wanting the best education for your child(ren) is a good thing

Parent Cafe
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<p>Re Post 120:
I happen to agree with GFG that post 117 sounds racist and overly optimistic. Just FYI, I’ve already begun to see a change in the study habits of many well-off Asian American students in the last 6 years: elementary, middle, and high. I include in that both East Asian and South Asian students. I’ve been doing a lot of posting in the “Waitiing for Superman” thread. It is not at all an ethnic/racial oriented discussion, but when I happen to note there the deterioration of the student work ethic (and how public school teachers are playing to that), I need to inform you that by no means does any particular national or ethnic group carry the monopoly on that. I have grossly underperforming students who are Indian, Pakistani, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Taiwanese, Filipino. They are equally well represented with Caucasian, Hispanic, and African-American students. They are suburban, upper-middle-class, and usually with dual-professional, well-educated parents. The Asian parents, especially, don’t get it; they are “tearing their hair out” trying to understand the source of their children’s laziness. (Don’t laugh: I’m well acquainted with the penchant of Asian parents to label even hard-working children “lazy” whenever they are not overachieving. But when I say lazy in this case, both they and I mean it.)</p>

<p>With status and material comfort, come (often) complacency and the disappearance of drive. Add to that the enormous recreational influence on adolescents’ everyday lives in the 21st century, permeating every aspect of their waking moments, it seems, since almost any technological device can be turned into a toy these days, and is almost always On.</p>

<p>The Asian parents are baffled by the contrast between their own work ethic and the lack of it in their children. A significant percentage of them are underperforming in classroom work (doing as little as possible, studying very little for tests, shrugging off mediocre grades), and hugely underperforming in standardized testing, compared to the high level that was much more uniform for this group 6 years ago. </p>

<p>I didn’t see others being “mocking and condescending.” Perhaps I haven’t read well enough through all the posts. I do see, however, post 120 mocking the Founding Fathers of this country as if being a historical figure makes one irrelevant. What makes a leader – the people considered good leaders in this country – necessitates a considerable dose of idealism, often. Any ethnic group that assumes that a country’s values of generosity and service will be irrelevant to the 21st century may be in for a surprise.</p>

<p>Well-rounded, btw, is not necessarily “a euphemism for mediocrity.” Depends on the context. Sometimes it can mean being a dilettante and a general underachiever. But in the context of true promise, what it often means is an abundance of qualities like self-sacrifice, which did characterize our Founding Fathers and gave them a persistence which resulted in nationhood and abiding ideals of the common good.</p>

<p>If you “love this country,” you should already know that, but your post does not seem to reflect such knowledge. This country is not only about political freedom and economic opportunity. It is not only about an individualistic climb to the top of the material ladder, but also about working hard for inclusion for those who stumble while climbing.</p>

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<p>I am a first generation immigrant from China. Because I don’t know much about football, baseball, I am not too interested in sign my kids up for these sports. So, if you have Asian neighbors whose kids are not playing in the Little League, maybe their parents are not aware of those opportunities. Maybe you can pass the information to them. On the other hand, you can also ask them about the math classes offered at their weekend language school. Maybe your kids can sign up for these classes, too. Usually these classes are not expensive and they speak English in these classes. Two hours out of a weekend for math class really is not that bad.</p>

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<p>So far, this thread was interesting and informative. Now, it’s turning ugly. Time to let this thread die.</p>

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<p>Re: post 119:
Longprime-
You might try to quit starting genuine, sincere, logical, content-laden threads and instead stick with the outrageous, unbelievable, slapstick stuff. Then your threads will grow like wildfire. Take a lesson from the master. It is a true gift. Most impressive. <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1010817-event-invitations.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1010817-event-invitations.html&lt;/a&gt; We can surely all take notes. Maybe there should be a quiz at the end of the thread. ;)</p>

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<p>hyeonjlee-- The beauty of a thread like this is that it goes on and on until it reaches a point where the true feelings of a poster eventually come out. You did a great job In post 117 of proving that point. The superiority in that post, and your true feelings regarding America and our culture, is what will in fact keep many immigrants from becoming leaders in this country. Yes, Asians may have dibs on tech jobs, and math and science, but it takes far more to be a leader in this country. Your post was completely out of line, and I would suggest that you practice what you speak to others, regarding the use of backhanded slurs.</p>

<p>I would like to add that since true feelings are coming out…The great outdoors works wonders in allowing a child to develop creativity and social skills.</p>

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<p>A true statement by hyeonjlee, and any other interpretation is unfair.</p>

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<p>Except that founders of future Microsoft, Google, Facebook, and Youtube etc might not be among them. By no means I consider people work in the high tech fields leaders, but clearly highly educated workers.</p>

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<p>Exactly. Standard testing and more days of schooling have little to do with producing future leaders.</p>

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<p>Where the ideas come from is the key (hint: here). Looking for skilled workers is what business do, but going out of the country to find them, yet leaving our own kids uneducated is not acceptable.</p>

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<p>Only those who still have a drive are likely to lead us forward.</p>

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<p>Yes. Show us some supreme court justices, congressmen, university presidents, governors, etc.</p>

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<p>This is a nice post. This is how we grow…by integrating what is “best” of each culture and cross-pollinating. IMHO, this is what has kept us changing and adapting, as a country, in a positive way.</p>

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<p>^ Yes, it was a very nice post.</p>

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<p>I second that. Very nice post.</p>

<p>A very interesting thread. I agree that at the point where emotionally charged accusations (racism, superiority complex, slackers…) are hurled between posters, it’s probably a good idea to let the thread die peacefully. I will, however, list a few observations which I have personally observed which may (or not) shed some light on a few of the discussion points above.

  1. My daughter attends a very selective magnet school in No. Va., where roughly half of its students are classified as Asian. She in fact has many close Asian friends who I consider well-adjusted, and a quick look at pictures of the athletic teams (football, basketball, etc.) makes it abundantly clear that Asians are well represented in what some posters have deemed “Non-Asian” activities.
  2. It is also true that at her school, Asians perform exceedingly well on the school’s math and science teams. A typical look at the school news regarding the national “Olympiad” teams (her school is well represented, btw) supports what some have reported above - that Asian students are performing at a very high level in school.
  3. Contradicting some of the posts above, I do see Asian kids outdoors riding bikes and skateboards, running, hiking, etc. In other words, I would just like to throw out the possibility that studying above and beyond what we’ve typically considered “normal” might be a complex dynamic – for example, it may be achieved by limiting what some call call screen time (TV, video games, internet surfing, talking on the phone, etc.)
    I have a different perspective regarding some of the generalities presented by various posters with respect to math, science, leadership, arts, sports, etc. Rather than classifying certain disciplines as Asian, I like to think people of all ethnicities rationally pursue education (and jobs) based on prevailing market conditions. For example, if we observed a sudden crazy demand for English lit or art history majors, I’d assume that we see a lot of Asians and non-Asians pursuing those fields as well. Even for those posters who have suggested that life is so much more than just math and science, I’d like to believe that most parents – ‘though not all – like the idea that their children will be financially well off. If a child’s passion is not consistent with going to college and requires lifelong travel to learn different cultures around the world, I believe most parents – again, not all - would not be so supportive - not because they deem this choice as less desirable than math and science, but because of the potential long term financial implications for the child.
    And one final point. In support of one of the posts above, I believe that what some of us have observed is more of an immigration phenomenon and less so an Asian phenomenon. I have extended family members who are Korean and hear numerous discussions about how the 2nd generation Koreans don’t appear to do as well in school as those who’ve recently immigrated. And that makes perfect sense to me – I would expect that if I had to take my family to China to live, my main focus would be more about making sure that basic needs were met (food, shelter, education, job) and less about visiting the art museums.</p>
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<p>There are some fundamental posts I see that I believe need commenting on:</p>

<p>1)The list of Nobel prize winners and patents does tend to favor the US, and in fact it is in no small part due to American culture and in fact that itself is a sign of one of the strong points of American culture, the ability to innovate and take a leap beyond, and part of that comes from having people from all kinds of places and background contribute. I am not painting a rosey picture, that the US is and always has been this place that welcomes everyone, etc, there are dark sides there.</p>

<p>But if you look at the history of the Jews, for example, where they fled to the US because of conditions in the places they came from, where for the most part they couldn’t get educations easily, were often limited in what they did, you name it…and though the US doesn’t exactly have a perfect record when it came to the Jews (as others pointed out, there were quotas in colleges for Jews, Ivy league schools were reluctant to admit them, places like Bell Labs and IBM would not hire Jews until WWII, as examples), they were given half a chance, and the record is out there, they became researchers, scientists, engineers, and contributed to this country.</p>

<p>Likewise, kids come from Asia and all over the world, and have contributed. One of the founders of Google comes from Russia, and a number of silicon valley companies have been founded by immigrants or first generation people from all over the world, especially Asia. The reason this is possible is because the US is a nation of immigrants, and it has been a strength. And the reason is because however reluctantly at times, all the grief and such, the US doesn’t have the mono culture that many places have had, and now are struggling to adjust as immigrant populations come in and there are all kinds of problems of people cut off, etc.</p>

<p>In terms of Asian excellence, I will add there are many parts to this like. Like the Jews, Asian immigrants find more opportunity here and grab it, the sheer number of schools in this country, the universal education, are things that don’t exist in most of the countries they come from (unless it has changed, for example, in many places schools are not free, if they exist, and can be beyond what people can afford). Even in the inner city, that supposedly have bad schools, Asian immigrant kids come in and thrive, because it is still better then what they had at home…</p>

<p>2) But there is a fundamental question here, about why does the US have so many nobel prizes and patents? And that is, besides welcoming immigrants (no matter how reluctantly at times), it is a cultural thing, and it has primarily I believe to do with the US’s focus on the individual. The US is not a collective society, a group society, nor is it hierarchical at its base, it is a place that cherishes the individual and also creates the concept of the maverick, the person willing to do what others tell is impossible, take risks, whatever. The history of the US is full of those kind of people. The founders might have been hundreds of years ago, but they created something that has lasted and also adjusted to the times, and unlike most countries, the US was founded on a philosophy that the individual is the key member of society, not that society is always above the individual (obviously, it is a mix, society is a group made up of individuals).</p>

<p>The reason this is important is because when you have collectivist societies, they tend to be conservative, they tend to be reluctant to change or because it is disruptive, look at change as a bad force. Change is scary, it does create disruptions, and to societies based on order and continuous flow, that is a threat. Likewise, radical ideas, trying new things, often upsets the applecart that is the power base, and in hierarchical societies it is toxic.</p>

<p>25 years ago, when everyone said Japan was going to take over the world, that the Japanese had the “IT” model, there were articles written both in Japan and here about how the Japanese were looking to change their school system, that it put great weight on standardized test scores and grades, but in that pursuit it was they believed taking away the power of other skills, like creating and innovating (EE Times was one of the places I recall reading this). One of the things that the Japanese realized (and I believe they are still looking to change their system) is that they produced students with the capability to build things well, to learn, but that innovation was not where they were strong, that they took what others did and incrementally improved it…</p>

<p>Likewise, many of the so called “Sea Turtles” who are going back to China after going to the US for education, are finding it tough sledding, that after being used to the academic freedom and the relative freedom to explore what they wished, they ran into the bureacracy and hierarchy back home, the mentality that what exists is good, what doesn’t exist is scary, censorship, controlled information, etc…</p>

<p>3)You have to be careful when you talk about high tech engineering being done in places like India and China, that is a misnomer. Look on an Apple Ipod or Iphone, look on other things built overseas, and what do you see? “Design and engineered in the US/California, and built in China/India” (btw, many of these are designed by design teams with people who come from all over the world). You have to be careful about that, because one of the things that at the present time is not being done overseas for the most party is innovation and new products, you aren’t seeing the Googles and the Apples and the like coming out of India and China, even though people in those countries could be working on it, and it is because of the environment here I believe. Yes, things are being created there, and it has more to do with the environment then with the people, has nothing to do with intelligence or anything else. If you look at what is being created there, patents coming out, it is still the Japanese model, which are incremental changes on what others are developing. Part of this too with developing economies, they are looking to industrialize and build local business, but money is not being spent on pure R and D, rather it is on exploiting what is out there.</p>

<p>And it is evident in the model, with China and India there primary growth has in reality been shifting work that has been happening elsewhere and moved there, due to a large part to economics of labor and other costs. If India and China were building new companies building new products, developing their own base, you wouldn’t see what you do now, where most of the work is contract outsourcing to companies located elsewhere, you wouldn’t see the flood of Indian IT and engineering workers into the US on H1 visas, because if jobs were being created at home, they would get a job there, but there simply aren’t enough jobs for the kids graduating, and those that get jobs tend to be with outsource firms like Infosys or with companies who put IT centers in the country, moving jobs from elsewhere…And before someone accuses me of claiming that Indians or Chinese folks are incapable, that is hogwash, as can be seen by what happens with Indians or Chinese people immigrate…what I am saying is that the cultures in the countries they left are not condusive to innovation or creativity in the way the US culture is, that’s all. Want proof? There is an article in today’s paper that China is censoring any attempt to search for nobel peace prize winners, because a dissident won the peace prize this year…that kind of paranoia and hierarchy doesn’t lend itself to innovative thinking. </p>

<p>I think the cultural issue is best summed up by something I read years ago in an interview with Akio Morita, the head of Sony. Around 1970 Sony was making TV sets in the US, in San Diego, and he was asked if he was afraid the quality would lag. He laughed, and told the reporter he had to stop reading his own newspaper, because he was getting bad ideas about how things worked. He said first of all, the product had the Sony name on it, and it was his and those running the company to keep the quality, and that blaming the quality of the product on the workers was ridiculous, that bad quality was bad management (which is in fact the truth, all the bashing of workers is generally a cop out for bad management). He also made another interesting point, he said that US based workers were better in some ways then Japanese ones; his point was that if a US worker saw something wrong, for example in a TV set component that was difficult to assemble or the like, given the chance they would be quite willing to tell an engineer it wouldn’t work. In Japan, a line worker would see the engineer as above them, better educated, and it is hard to criticize like that in that society (those were his almost verbatim words).Unfortunately, a lot of US manufacturing told their workers to shut up, but that is another issue…</p>

<p>4)I also would be careful to jumping to conclusions about the numbers of Asians in IT and Technology. American students aren’t stupid (including Asian kids), they go where they believe the future lies. In technology, thanks to the Internet and also to programs like the H1 visa and outsourcing, companies are often taking the low cost route in terms of employment, and when you have engineers and IT people either on an outsource basis or as H1 visas making significantly less then someone would typically make, word is it doesn’t pay to go into those jobs. Despite what Steve Ballmer and others claim, there aren’t tons of IT jobs that need filling, it is tons of IT jobs that they want to pay cut rate prices for (and if something thinks this is hooey, do a google search on a harvard business schools study about wages in IT and tech and H1 visas and such). And if you don’t believe it, talk to any H1 visa holder about their plans, and they will tell you that their golden ticket is to get a green card and be able to actually negotiate a fair salary and be able to move to better jobs…the point is, US kids, including Asians I might add, are getting the word it is better to be the person outsourcing jobs, then having your job outsourced…</p>

<p>Will this hold in the future? Not sure, depends on a lot of factors. The US government is still supporting the outsource model, and with H1 visas they all but made that open season, so I suspect it will (H1 visas used to be for people with unique skill sets, like for example someone with a PHd in solid state physics working for Intel or something; the government during the past 10 years changed the law, and basically as long as someone has the qualifications for the job, they are eligible, so ordinary skills like programming, engineering and so forth are fine. They also got rid of the law that said during a recession no new H1’s would be issued with few exceptions). I do know that kids of Asian descent are following the path of other US kids, and moving away from tech, where they feel there is no future, to business tracks and the like. </p>

<p>5)One comment on test scores and the like. The US has been behind on those scores since I was a kid, the same claims were being make 40 years ago, and you have to be careful about that, and here is why. While I am no fan of our education system, for a number of reasons, I also think you have to take that with a grain of salt. A lot of countries base their whole curricula around that test, and as a result their kids do really well on them, are up in the top.</p>

<p>Yet if you look, a country like Singapore is on there, which is not known for particularly blowing the world out in science and technology, and I believe the Phillpines at one point scored highly up there. The problem is those scores might indicate a country that thinks the scores mean more to national prestige then actually creating anything, you have to be careful.</p>

<p>I am not covering for our education system, I think in many ways it needs reform, and not just inner city schools, I think our school priorities are way off, and that the way we teach needs looking at. For example, most school programs are centered around the middle, they teach to the ‘average’ student, rather then teach to the top and adjust for the kids under that level, and so forth. I just don’t think those tests are particularly enlightening.</p>

<p>I think there is more relevance to the fact that a lot of people know nothing about basic science, about how science operates, what a theory is, and can thus believe claims that creationism is science and evolution is ‘a guess’, or that science is wrong and the earth is 6000 years old…or how math works, for frankly, even being able to read a basic graph of let’s say the federal budget and understand the underlying numbers. I don’t worry about the top, Asian, European background, whatever, I worry more above the average…</p>

<p>6)I think you also have to be careful about perceptions of a population. Despite the claims of many, the US is still the most productive workforce in the world and by any measure the most innovative and creative as well. Manufacturing hasn’t shifted to China and India and Thailand because the people are more efficient, manufacturing has shifted there because they have huge populations seeking work and companies can set their own labor rates, and even with current changes in salaries in China, the average manufacturing wage is still roughly 3 dollars a day.</p>

<p>BTW, my hope for the US rests on the culture and for its people, and yes, the Asian kids are going to be part of that, and it should be welcome. On the other hand, I don’t appreciate the other side, the attitude among some Asians and native born US people that somehow this incredible achievement in academics means that others are worth less or somehow won’t do anything worthwhile, that US kids are “lazy” or “don’t follow the perfect model” and that is ridiculous. While I applaud academic achievements and what kids end up doing, it is a one dimensional model, because in the end what matters is what comes out. There are plenty of kids out there who weren’t 4.0 students, who didn’t go to an Ivy league school and become a doctor, for example, who have created many things, and become quite successful. People who aren’t great at studying or classroom work have created business empires; others who didn’t graduate magna cum laude did things like break the human genome, with a small team of others, on a relatively shoestring budget, before the huge team of researchers with the human genome project, full of top level academic achieving types…and I do agree with others, playing the academic game, rushing ahead and pushing the kids to do Calculus in 8th grade may not be a recipe for success, nor will having the 4.0 or the Ivy degree mean the person will actually do much with their lives…</p>

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<p>Oak-
Nice post, and well said. One of the things we have noticed in the music world is how many of the kids come from backgrounds where either they are immigrants, or one or more parents are. Informal survey, but probably among the high level students and performers we see, a large majority fall into this. Not sure if it is bringing the culture of the old country with them through the parent or being an immigrant themselves or whether like with academic achievement it is because of the drive required, not sure. </p>

<p>Actually, music points out the boundaries of where the incredible discipline and drive are limited in terms of success. Classical music in the past 30 or 40 years ago has seen a major influx of kids from Asia or Asian-American backgrounds, and among other things the level of achievement has gone up at any age level, because like with academics, the work ethic required, the major practice time and the like, shows. Yet there is a sidelight to all this, that in some ways analogous to the discussion of high achieving academically versus success. A lot of the kids with Asian background I see have achieved incredible technical ability, playing virtuoustic pieces as a teenager that used to be taught at the college level, winning all kinds of competitions, etc…yet a lot of these kids, the ones who try to get into music, often don’t make it (note, true of anyone trying to get into music, believe me), that if you look at those who ‘make it’ as a percentage versus the percentage studying it all along the chain, it is way out of whack. The problem is that a lot of these kids are taught the way academics sometime are, that music is about you practice x hours every day, and play the notes perfectly, and a lot of kids, especially those being trained in Asia, do that and then they are disappointed, because music is a lot more then playing notes perfectly, it is also about expression and interpretation, and they had been taught in effect by rote to play it the way the teacher did. The point is that music is not math, it is an art form that requires technical ability but also passion and feeling and expression and understanding of the music. I use this analogy because to ‘make it’ requires a lot more then academic understanding, it also requires dealing with people, it requires trusting intuition at times, finding new paths, thinking of new ways to do things, the skill set doesn’t begin and end with a degree from a certain school or field…and from talking to immigrant friends, usually rolling their eyes when talking about their parents I might add, if you think about it the focus on academic achievement is something that cuts across cultures and societies, it is something easily seen as ‘successful’. If I moved to a different country, and didn’t understand the culture, one thing I could count on (besides taxes, annoying bureacrats and pigeons) is that academic success in most cultures is seen as being important, and a ‘way up’ the ladder in most places, and I would want that for my kids as well.As my spouse would point out, when you move someplace from somewhere else (as she did as a kid), and have nothing (and as oak said) your first concern is to survive, and then find a path so your kids will have it better, and will do everything you can to try and have that happen, as best you can. Education and achievement like that cuts across places and times (well, okay, I can think of places in this country maybe not so much, but I won’t go there), so it isn’t surprising.</p>

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<p>^^ Thank you for re-centering the thread. And, of course, for your very thoughtful comments. I’m still reading :D</p>

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<p>^another great post.</p>

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<p>It is unfortunate that posters apparently viewed my comments about 21st century culture in the U.S. as a supposed slam at Asians for supposedly being “slackers” (to quote one replier). ??? There was nothing in my post that singled them out for that. Quite the opposite. I specifically said, and I will say it again, that Asian-American students are beginning to acquire, in increasing number, the same inertia that has infected the country at large, at least as quite evident in many, many suburban public schools. I wasn’t talking about selective Virginia schools, private schools, boarding schools, etc. There are stereotypes, frankly, in both directions when it comes to many ethnic groups, and nowhere is this more true than the generalized group “Asians.” </p>

<p>My children grew up, and are still growing up, among Asian-American families, so I have become quite close to a number of those parents. One of my Korean Mom friends just laughs at the stereotypes, and in my work my parents also laugh at this, because very often their particular children defy the stereotype. The point is not that Asians are more this or more that, less this or less that. The point was a comment about the work ethic in this country generally, and how materialism, easy affluence, and convenience can infect all subcultures, including recent immigrants (or their progeny). I could almost say that in the last 3 years especially I have seen in my work a 1:1 correspondence between the parents’ affluence and the students’ underachievement. It happens to be, because I work in an extremely diverse area, that these families include extremely large percentages of varied Asian cultures (previously named, except that I forgot my Burmese families.) Not only do those parents lament that (and are confused by that, when they themselves are immigrants), I lament it. I lament it among Anglos; I lament it among Asians; I lament it among under-represented minorities. It’s my job to lament it, and to correct it. Which isn’t easy, because it’s a 21st century First World cultural problem, not an “Asian” problem. </p>

<p>Assimilation brings upsides and downsides, many of both quite thoroughly expounded on this thread. Idealizing, demonizing, or stereotyping (the host country or its immigrants) serves no good purpose. I’m sorry if it appeared that I was classifying. I was reporting that the classifications are becoming less so, and Asian immigrant parents are suffering because of that, and the country as a whole is suffering because of that.</p>

<p>I share the recent observations on music performance, btw.</p>

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<p>I admit I have not read this entire thread, and one may find many Asian kids (including South Asian here) participating in math or science competitions, but I think this may lead to some over generalizations. My kids grew up in an area of the country with a large and influential Asian population (a recent Governor was of Asian descent). They also practiced Asian martial arts, which brought them into even closer contact with those communities. Our friends and theirs are mostly of Asian origins. Only one of the youngsters we have known is in college majoring in science or mathematics or business. Many are enrolled in LACs, one is at West Point, some at elite privates, and others at the state flagship. The parents are happy and proud of their kids (though like the rest of us concerned about future employment). After hanging out in this country for a few generations, I find people tend to be more alike than different. While I like the differences, I like the sameness as well.</p>

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<p>^Here, here.
:)</p>

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<p>MusicPrint - I was enjoying your write up until you started to stereo type Asians in your post - Aisan musicians are too much of techno craft, not playing with passion, that lost me and i started to roll my eyes As much as people would like to criticize poster of 120, as eloquently as music print’s posts, I don’t think they are any better, there are lot of bias there.</p>

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<p>I think musicprnt was talking about tendencies in training, not necessarily whether anyone cannot be trained out of that, exposed to other traditions in performance. Yo-Yo Ma certainly defies that “rule,” as do some of the young female Asian violinists. Perhaps I misunderstood her.</p>

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<p>S2’s wonderful HS jazz band (one of the best in the country) had many fine, creative, Asian members (one is now a first year a Juilliard), who went well beyond technical excellence, and showed tremendous passion. They were led by New Orleans based jazz instructors and could swing with the best of them. Again, let’s not overgeneralize, if the teachers swing so will the students.</p>

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<p>When I came to the US, my math level was 2 to 3 grades higher than most 7th graders, but they soon surpassed me in their analytical abilities. They were much better at problem solving, and I was much better at the mechanic. With my own kids, it was important for them to get the basic down (American system isn’t very good with that). When D2 was struggling with math in 5th grade, we did send her to Kumon for 2 years. She learned how to add, subtract to multiply very quickly in her head. With the basic down pact, she became a lot more confident in her math class. Now her math teachers compliment her on her creative ways of solving problems. </p>

<p>This is an example of combining different culture of teaching. Straight memorization only creates robots, only focusing on creativity without good basic foundation also do not produce very good result. </p>

<p>As heated as this thread has become, I have also enjoyed different views.</p>