<p>I've been thinking a lot lately about whether or not putting in that extra effort to get all As was really worth it... It seems that there is a wide range of people getting into top schools, and that it doesn't necessarily require you being #1 in your class. All throughout high school I accepted doing your best in the classroom (which I always assumed was straight As for me, because I knew that was my best) to be a good goal. But now I've stepped back, examined the situation a bit, and I can't really justify all that stress/worrying/etc. I've always been told it's so great that I work hard in school, but why? What is the pay-off? Is there a lot of value to self-discipline? When do I get to reap the rewards of my effort? Does anyone in life really care? And, more importantly, in college should I continue trying to get top grades, or just try hard, learn a lot, and settle for whatever the college analog of the B+/A- is? I feel that I'd have a LOT more time/energy then to learn other stuff that interests me, or just relax and enjoy myself more. Was there any point to all the work I did in high school? Does it matter to anyone else ever? Why do parents push their children to do well in school? What does it all come down to in the end?</p>
<p>The pay-off is what you learn. That's the only thing that can be guaranteed: not the grades, not whether you get into a top university. If you study hard, take tough classes, put your heart into learning, you get the pleasure of expanding your horizons and deepening your understanding. If you do the work for straight As in anticipation that there will be some other pay-off: a prestigious job, a Harvard admission, being valedictorian, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.</p>
<p>Parents push their kids to do well because parents don't want kids' opportunities truncated because of the kids' laziness, something the kids have control over. Neither the high school flunk-out nor the straight A student is guaranteed to get everything they want in life. However, if both want a comfortable lifestyle, etc., the straight A student is likely to have the best shot at getting that.</p>
<p>I'm assuming you are a senior and admitted to a college, but I definitely think you should put as much work as you can into every class. Apparently you've done a lot of work and have been a really good student throughout high school, but like NSM said, the only pay-off is an education and learning. In my case I'm kept in line and strive for good grades because I want to go to law school, and after law school get a good job. I do believe you should take time to do what you want to do every once in a while but you should always give your classes your best shot.</p>
<p>I really do love learning... but there are some assignments that I just don't really enjoy (say, like, some essays), or some tests were certain parts of the material don't interest me at all. To me there is a VERY big difference between getting B+/A-s in each class, and getting all As. If grades didn't count for anything, I'd probably have B+/A-s in most classes, probably As in many math/science classes. It's the extra stress/pressure that I'm wondering about... in the end if there are a handful of historical figures whose names I can't recall or a couple of proofs in math that I don't fully understand and that makes my grades drop ever-so-slightly, is that an issue? Is there value in pushing yourself to do the stuff that isn't quite as interesting, that extra 5-10% of the material? It's not really the time that I care about-- the extra time needed is almost trivial at that point, what's an extra half an hour even?-- but rather the pressure/stress/etc., just the general mindset needed to motivate oneself to take that extra step to perfect each piece of work handed in.</p>
<p>Well, in college they set it up so that it takes a lot of effort to get an A. For example, at Wake some professors don't give higher than a 95 and an A is a grade over 93, if I'm not mistaken. An A- is a 90-92. Just 2 little points and you get an A instead of an A-. I would advise some marginal cost and marginal benefit analysis when it comes to effort. In my case I would suggest going all out, within reason. If you value a high grade, the respect of your professor, and want to learn, go the extra mile. If you want to do whatever you want, you can slack off, and get a lower grade. I suppose it all depends on the person.</p>
<p>Marlgirl, your perfect score sheet at Marlborough does matter. It will, however, matter more to you than to anyone else. Whenever you will encounter a seemingly insoluble problem or fight self-doubt, you will be able to remember that you excelled at everything that the school threw at you, including the classes that you may not have like much. You also demonstrated -mostly to yourself- that your abilities and drive helped you end up at the top of your class, and at an extremely competitive school to boot. While there is no tangible prize, your achievement will never lose value. </p>
<p>It is undeniable that a record marred by very slight imperfections might have yielded the same result, and that you would still be bound for Stanford. The only difference is that your best efforts have also equated into the best scores possible. There is great value in knowing that you could not have done better. </p>
<p>The ultimate pay-off for all your efforts is your personal satisfaction.</p>
<p>Marlgirl,
I am going to be a bit tangential here-- but these are the comments I would make to my child if we were having this conversation in "real time."</p>
<p>I am just curious, is there a specific event or situation which has prompted this query, or is it just the "post acceptance" let down ((what do I do with my life now that I have achieved this goal?)). </p>
<p>Goal setting is an art. It is important to set goals that are meaningful and short term; as well as those which are meaningful and longer term. I think, rightfully so, young people focus mostly on the short term. You are goal oriented, you have checked the box...so what is next??</p>
<p>You can never know, honestly, if a incrementally less rigorous approach in HS would have rendered the same results, can you? The "is it worth it?" question is personal and also one that you cannot really answer until you determine the ultimate value to you of the college you attend. </p>
<p>I think it is great to have the time (now that applications are in, you have a very nice acceptance) for self evaluation. If this has been a byproduct of your education and your hard work, then it speaks positively of them. </p>
<p>Some people work best only if there is intrinsic motivation, others need the extrinsic measures to determine if there is "success" or "validity." You might be at a point where it will be fine to prioritize the former, without any compromise of results-- if you select the right college and the right programs, etc....</p>
<p>What made me start wondering about this: the other night I was with a good friend of mine who has focused less on perfect grades and more on just learning what she thinks is interesting, and realized that people reacted MUCH more positively to her... so then I naturally started thinking about our different approaches to learning throughout high school, etc. and couldn't quite explain to myself why I had valued striving to be at the top of the class. Adults always said it was great that I tried hard in school and did well, etc., so I guess I just assumed it has some intrinsic value and never questioned it. I'm just curious why parents place such a high value on being at the top of the class. What is the potential gain? When/how/why does it eventually really matter? And if it doesn't... why do parents do it? Is it just so they can brag about their children? I think it's much more of a semi-routine value inspection (I like to understand why I believe what I did, argue it over with myself, and then come to a conclusion) than me regretting working hard. Any other thoughts?</p>
<p>All I can say is that when you can fully answer this type of question for yourself, you will be able say you have "no regrets" in life. It is an essential question of life, not just a question for a 17 year old. If you are so inclined, read a book by Rabbi Harold Kushner on this topic (go to Amazon, you'll find it). I am sure there are plenty of other books on the topic without the spiritual element, if that does not appeal to you. </p>
<p>As to the "why push" issue...I think the answers are as varied as the parents. I would have to say, for my 2 eldest children, I "push" a bit more than their father, neither of us push nearly as much as many parents we know. My kids are largely internally motivated- they do not get A's in gut classes which are disinteresting, for example... </p>
<p>Why do we not push more? I am not 100% sure to be honest with you. Both of us attended tippy top schools for undergrad and grad schools- we have no desire/need to prove ourselves through our children's ability to do the same. WE know the boys are plenty smart and if they find their "niche" will do great things. We know plenty of people who did not go to HYPSM and are having wonderful, interesting, stellar lives-- just like ours! Both kids work really hard on things that appeal to them, both have "interesting interests" and are great kids to talk to. Adults really like them, and they have good friends...</p>
<p>We also want to enjoy our lives with our children and feel this would be compromised if we set ridiculously high standards which would require OUR constant reinforcement. Our expectations are high, but not stratospheric and mostly center around "do your best" "find your passion" "always show integrity" "set a goal" "stick with things even if they are difficult". So, our kids have not had straight A's- which their standardized scores might suggest would have been "acheivable" even in their rigorous school, and with all AP/IB classes as they have done. </p>
<p>I have to say, though, we have never celebrated any grade more than my son's recent B+ in French IB- he is spelling-challenged and has had to devote many hours (and summer weeks) to working on his oral skills so that his spelling, which is still terrible, is but a blip...</p>
<p>As a parent, I place a high value on my children achieving all that that they can in the life that they possess. I don't want them to forclose opportunities to achieve things that they value, or which I think they may value highly in the future. As they become adults, setting this priority becomes thier job, not mine. In your case, not foreclosing opportunities may have meant achieving all "A's" and being number one on your class. Each person's options are subtly different.</p>
<p>As an adult, the decision to achieve at the top of your potential, or alternatively just below it, is up to you. But as you age, it may be that you regret things not done more than the losses you incur from reaching for the very top of your potential. If not, then maybe you should step it down a half-notch. But if you do, and you miss a key goal, will you always wonder if you might have made it with just a bit more effort...?</p>
<p>There really is no certainty regarding the road not taken.</p>
<p>I wonder if the good friend you were with is contemplating whether s/he should have pursued her/his studies just a bit more rigorously, so as to achieve what you have achieved?</p>
<p>Parents are concerned that their children get into what they consider the "best" schools, which often are equated with "hardest to get into" schools. To a large extent, getting top grades is important, as adcoms take GPAs and class rank very seriously. But not all parents think that way, or think that it is necessary to get the very best grades to get into good colleges.
Putting too much stress on getting good grades can be detrimental if it leads to taking only easy courses, not being willing to challenge oneself. In college, you will find that profs value students who can think for themselves and are willing to take intellectual risks.</p>
<p>What exactly does "do your best" mean? This is also something I've wondered about for a while... Like for me, to achieve my best I might give up a lot on the way, maybe a lot of things that I shouldn't give up. Is there some part of the phrase that's suggested but never stated? Like do the best you can while being happy and healthy? Maybe it's the word "best" that is misleading, making "do you best" sound more and more like "be the best"? Just something to think about... And when I was five being told to do my best sounded like such a harmless suggestion!</p>
<p>My S has been taking advanced math and science courses. We don't always know at the beginning, if he is sufficiently prepared for those courses. But he wants to try, knowing that he does best when he feels challenged and actually learning something new. So we have an understanding that he will do his best, that is, give his best effort; and if he still finds the course too hard, he can go down a notch. So far, he has not had to. He has not achieved the <em>best</em> grades for every class he's taken, but by any standard, the grades have been decent. He has not had to stay up late to do homework although his weekends have been taken up by homework. But that has more to do with the number of courses he is taking than with the difficulty of the courses. If he were to spend an inordinate amount of time on homework because it was difficult, if he was not enjoying the classes, then I would certainly put my foot down.<br>
Luckily, my S is not a perfectionist. For people who are, doing their best can be a rea; burden. i hope you know when to leave well enough alone.</p>
<p>I'm not sure what this means: "the other night I was with a good friend of mine who has focused less on perfect grades and more on just learning what she thinks is interesting, and realized that people reacted MUCH more positively to her... " Can you give some examples of how people react in a more positive way to her than you?</p>
<p>I think "do your best" should be a philosophy that is applied only to certain tasks, or one risks burn-out and regret. In fact, I am careful not to use the phrase too much with my own kids (a senior and freshman in high school). Why? As adults, none of us do our best at all times during the day or week or year. There are times in my job that I am compelled to do my absolute best because that's the only way I can live with the results. There are other times in my job when I decide to coast a bit because, for one, I know that I couldn't last going 100% throttle (I couldn't last the day, week or year). And second, some parts of my job don't need my 100 percent effort. Sure, the job would take it, but it wouldn't be worth it to me personally. So I pick and choose where to really apply my full effort (and I find that when I focus on a task with laser-like precision effort, I am very pleased with the results and so are others). </p>
<p>Everyone's best is self-interpreted, so I don't think we can tell you what that means. As an adult, you will negotiate each task (class, assignment, work responsibility, etc...) to decide how much effort you should put in and how much you are willing to give up for a certain result. Yes, there are tradeoffs; we're not robots. I hope that you will negotiate those tradeoffs based on what you want, not what your parents want or what you think other classmates or coworkers would do. Otherwise you will wake up at 40 one day and ask yourself the same question: is it worth it? And nobody will be able to answer you then either. Everyone decides for themselves if their effort has been worth it; you just get better at guessing the answer ahead of time the older you get.</p>
<p>Marlgirl as a senior in high school I perfectly understand where your coming from. Last spring, as a junior, I saw when UCLA was rejecting all these CC students, and they would complain about how all the hard work was for nothing. And then I had made a thread, asking whether it was worth it, because it seemed like most of them regreted doing things just so that they can get into a college, and I think it shows when it you apply. I rather be a teenager and enjoy my teenage years, both academically and socially, which some aren't able to do because they think that you have to be the best, when you just really have to be honest to yourself.</p>
<p>I'm personally not a fan of taking AP's and doing community service and things that don't interest me just to get into a college or be able to brag about on a college application. When you like something, you're naturally going to excel in them, and even if you don't at least you'll be happy with having learned what you did.</p>
<p>Well, if I were to use a different analogy, unrelated to academics: my mom is a perfectionist at home. She is a stay-at-home mom who was young in the '50s. Just about everything has to be perfect for her. Nothing wrong with that. When she visits me, she stays here for about 4-5 months (she visits from India). My house smells like roses. Everything is perfectly in place . I love it. She always wanted me to be like her. Do I emulate her? No!! It doesn't interest me. To me, the house being reasonably clean and well-kept is enough. Does anyone suffer from my lack of perfection? I don't think so.
I use that time to do things that interest me. </p>
<p>I'm not sure what you mean by 'someone else was better received than me and she had less than perfect grades'. Are you saying this person is better liked?</p>
<p>Stress is self-made. I've never felt very stressed throughout high school. Well, maybe I have, but I never identified it as stress. I did the work, turned it in, then fell asleep at my desk. You do what you gotta do, as fast as you can, then do what you WANT to do. School is, unfortunately, not always helpful to your education, but it's something you need to get through.</p>