Washington and Lee vs. Tulane (Honors)

Colleges and Universities A-Z Washington & Lee University
1

<p>Hello, all. We've gone through the chance threads, the anxious pacing by the (e)mailbox, and now we have the real decision in front of us: where will we be in six months time. </p>

<p>As you've likely guessed from this thread's title, I'm currently trying to decide between Washington and Lee and Tulane. Both have offered comparable scholarship packages (little to no debt factoring in my parents' contribution), so that's not a factor here. </p>

<p>I don't mean to offend anyone, but I do bring up a few stereotypical/largely anecdotal aspects of W&L in this post. I know that I have to take what I hear with a grain of salt, but I still want to get the rational opinion of a few of you smart cookies and put my worries to rest. </p>

<p>In that spirit, I have a few general questions/concerns that I'd like to pose to the general public. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>There's a stereotype of W&L as a hotbed of rich, largely Caucasian, preppy kids. I'm hesitant to put a ton of faith in this, since I did visit and found everyone incredibly kind and gracious, but I did want to fish for some other experiences, since I was only able to interact with a limited number of students directly. I'm not a minority or anything (not that it would be bad thing...I'm just not =D ), but I'm from the north, and my normal attire probably tends more towards jeans and a simple blouse/T-shirt/hoodie than towards sundresses and skirts. Do you think I'd feel massively out of place? </p></li>
<li><p>What is the intellectual climate (yes, I know that sounds pretentious, but I can't think of any better way to word what I'm trying to get across) at W&L? I know the academic ratings are very prestigious, but would I be ostracized if I actually enjoy academics and activities more towards the "nerdy" end of the spectrum as opposed to being a 100% party animal? </p></li>
<li><p>The small town. Have those from suburbs/mid-large cities felt claustrophobic being in this insular of an environment? What I'm largely afraid of, with this small of a school, and the limited non-school community, that it would become a bit of a gossip echo machine...also what my mother's concerned about. </p></li>
<li><p>Do you think that I, as I described myself above (geeky, not overly girly, middle class) would find a niche socially? I'm a little shy when I first meet people, but I open up pretty quickly once I feel comfortable. Do you think I'd "fit" into any of the sororities, based upon what you know of the "personalities" of each? I heard over and over how women who wouldn't have seen themselves in a traditional sorority ending up in one at W&L, but still...</p></li>
<li><p>Are there social avenues that don't include drinking 4 nights a week? I'm not totally against partying or anything, but I'd like a little variation in my college social life.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I know this post is weighted towards my concerns, but that's because I've already experienced the reasons I love W&L for myself, and I only need opinions about the aspects I'm a tad wary of .Thanks for anyone who helps me in this tough choice by responding!</p>

2

<p>Phoenix - I am from Louisiana, and looked at both W&L & Tulane, before choosing W&L, which was the right decision for me.</p>

<p>Most of your questions revolve around how you will fit in on W&L’s campus. Statically, about one third of the students are from the NE - so you will not stand out in that respect.</p>

<p>The school is very rural, pretty far removed from the nearest urban city, and named after Robert E. Lee. As a result, it has a hard time recruiting minority students. However, the students are from all over the country with pretty varied backgrounds - so while everyone might look homogeneous, there is more intellectual diversity than you might expect. </p>

<p>The student body lives by the work-hard & play-hard motto. However, it is definitely in that order. Academics comes first. Classes are too small, and professors too interested to slack off. </p>

<p>Regarding intellectual climate - just take a look at the admission statistics of the student body. Kids with those credentials don’t just go to college and leave their intellectual curiosity at home. If you want to “geek-out” and get excited about a class, research project or whatever, you will generally find someone else to get geeky with. </p>

<p>You are definitely asking the right questions, and the only way to answer them is to spend some time on campus. But I am curious, what questions are you asking about Tulane? How you answer those questions, compared to how you answer your questions about W&L will probably tell you which school you should pick.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

3

<p>W&L is far more diverse than meets the eye. I have found that absolutely everyone finds their own niche. You would most definitely find a place even if you aren’t the sundress wearing type. Each year, W&L is becoming progressively less like the stereotype it has had for decades. The one thing in common that every student has is that they all are intellectual and place high emphasis on academics. Also, not everyone choses to go out every night or drink at this school. There is a significant population of students that do stay in and still have fun.</p>

4

<p>Good responses in this thread. I’d add that for me this decision would be a slam-dunk as I believe Tulane has been resting on its laurels for decades. And I say this as a person who absolutely loves New Orleans!</p>

5

<p>

Resting on its laurels??? After Katrina?? I mean this in the nicest possible way, but that makes no sense. Tulane has received numerous awards and recognition from the Carnegie Foundation, Time Magazine, and others based precisely on what they did to heavily contribute to bringing New Orleans back. They have made huge changes to the programs to adjust to the financial concerns follwing Katrina, as well as to insure the school and the students become an integral part of the rebirth, making New Orleans a better place than before Katrina. Some of the cuts were painful, but it certainly doesn’t fit with the description of resting on laurels. They have been aggressively going after top students to raise their profile to be closer to Duke, Wash U, Vandy etc. Kind of funny because so many people say they over-market themselves, which I disagree with but it certainly is the opposite of “resting on its laurels”.</p>

<p>I would just love to understand the basis for your statement.</p>

6

<p>My guess is since Marsden said ‘for decades’, it was in reference to the last 40+ years more so than the last 10. This past decade the school made amazing strides as you stated Fallen. I can see how someone might say that Tulane let other schools pass it by in reputation, research, ect. during the last 40 years. I mean, after big oil left for Texas and New Orleans was surpassed by Atlanta and Houston, Tulane did lose some of its swagger along with the city. If they’re speaking with regards to the last decade then they’re just ill-informed. Both the city and the school have come back in spades.</p>

7

<p>You are correct. By ‘decades’ I meant ‘decades’.</p>

<p>It is conversations with Tulane grads which lead me to that conclusion. They said that Tulane was at one time ranked quite highly among American universities, which it obviously no longer is. Perhaps it never was then?</p>

8

<p>I would say it was among the most highly regarded and is still highly regarded, just not as much as in the past. Again, many younger schools have made amazing strides the last 50 years.</p>

<p>Keep in mind Tulane University is older than Rice, Emory, Vanderbilt, Duke, the US Naval Academy, Cornell, Stanford, Wash U, Northwestern, U Chicago, UC Berkley, USC, Notre Dame, Villanova, Ga Tech, and is only 15 years younger than UVA.</p>

<p>It had the 2nd oldest business school in the South (older than UVA’s Darden and all others but younger than UGA’s Terry by 2 years), 1st School of Public Health in the United States, 12th oldest Law School in the US, 12th oldest degree granting school in Architecture, and 15th oldest Medical School in the United States. </p>

<p>So it has some history of being a top school. It’s still 85 years younger than W&L though. TU is also reporting that it received more applications than any other private university in the country for this fall’s entering class. So perhaps it’s reclaiming some of its past glory. If only they could bring back their glory on the Gridiron.</p>

9

<p>First, I think to know that for the past 10 years Tulane has been making huge strides (basically the “Cowen Era”) but then to say they are “resting on their laurels” because for some period of time before that they were less active is just silly. That would be like saying a sports team that was great in 1900-1970, then lost for 30 years, and then was extremely competitive again in the 2000’s was still resting on its past glory. Besides, Marsden says “has been”, as in ongoing, not had been. It was just an erroneous statement, pure and simple. It might have been true before, but it hasn’t been true for at least 10 years. That does not qualify for a description of “resting on its laurels”.</p>

<p>As far as the rankings, it would be a mistake to use them as a guide. But even if you do, I am unclear how being #50 is “no longer” ranked quite highly. There are thousands of universities. It puts Tulane on their first page. But it is all smoke and mirrors anyway. USNWR changes the parameters, it assumes people in Maine, for example, really know what is going on at Tulane as opposed to the perceptions they got on the news post-Katrina, and so many other flaws it is simply worthless. They just sell a lot of magazines. As has been discussed on here before, Tulane has risen a great deal in the quality of the incoming classes, with this year’s class increasing another 9 points for average SAT score on the 1600 scale. It will be interesting to see if that is enough to take them from #30, where they were, into the 20’s somewhere.</p>

10

<p>So, you claim that Tulane was once ranked #30 and is now ranked #50 and then declare that this represents “great strides”. It does, only not in the direction you’re pretending. And then the other half of your tag team claims that Tulane is older than a cherry-picked selection of other schools and declares that this proves it has a “history of being a top school.” </p>

<p>Sorry, but you guys are actually convincing me of quite the opposite. I notice from both of your posting histories that you search CC (almost daily) for mentions of Tulane University and then attack anyone who mentions that Tulane is anything but one of the top schools in the nation. Fine, call it anything you like, but let’s at least admit that you have absolutely no objective data to support your contentions. Its SAT scores went up 9 points? BFD! What exactly *are *these scores? You forgot to mention that. </p>

<p>How much does this gig pay you anyway? Have you ever convinced anyone? You definitely put in the effort, I’ll grant you that! Tulane would benefit from intrepid souls like you on its PR team, if you’re not already there. It would also benefit from increased quality across the board. So far, despite much sound and fury, you haven’t demonstrated a thing, except that Tulane is ranked much lower than it used to be. And even *that *is just your claim.</p>

11

<p>“I notice from both of your posting histories that you search CC (almost daily) for mentions of Tulane University and then attack anyone who mentions that Tulane is anything but one of the top schools in the nation.”</p>

<p>I’ve got no interest in this particular debate, but with respect to Fallenchemist I couldn’t agree with you more. Seemed like a rational enough person until I pointed out an inconsistency in one of his posts. Next thing I knew he was on the attack-(misrepresenting both what I had posted and what he had posted, all with a lot of personal animosity) Never did establish whether his problem was an overwhelming need to feel that he had “won” an argument or whether he just has an issue concerning Tulane. Really wasn’t worth thinking about or responding to him any further.</p>

12

<p>Heh… I don’t let any of it bend me out of shape. CC is as partisan as a political forum, for better or worse. Certain people are incredibly invested in the prestige of their alma mater or favorite school. (For instance, don’t dare mention WUSTL! Oops!) Anyone who looks at my posting history will note that I have *never *mentioned Tulane one single time until the current thread. Maybe I should ask in the Tulane forum for actual data confirming the notion that Tulane is stronger or weaker than it used to be. Or maybe I’ll go swimming. It’s a nice day ;)</p>

13

<p>I didn’t even see this before… LOL! </p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/tulane-university/707222-fallenchemist-who-you.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/tulane-university/707222-fallenchemist-who-you.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Whatever! Now, simple question: are Tulane’s average SAT scores higher or lower than W&L?</p>

14

<p>So, I’ve researched this a bit and (if we can trust Tulane’s website) their numbers have improved quite a bit in recent years. I will no longer say that Tulane is ‘resting on its laurels’ because I think that was true ten years ago but not now. At least I think so… there’s so much hype, marketing, and manipulation going on that it’s hard to be sure. </p>

<p>So I’m left with one question: why has Tulane’s ranking slipped so much? “USN&WR sucks” isn’t a valid response, particularly since no one would say that if their favorite school is ranked highly. One valid response would be to link other reputable rankings where Tulane does better. Sound and fury aside, can anyone do that?</p>

15

<p>Incidentally, I’m very much a partisan of New Orleans (used to live there in fact) and nothing would make me happier than to see any of its old institutions gaining ground. Will there ever be a Comus parade again? :(</p>

16

<p>The USNWR rankings are, in my opinion, terribly flawed, and it’s unfortunate that so many people on college confidential believe them to be absolutely perfect rankings of colleges. A significant portion of a school’s overall ranking is due to the “peer rating”. So ask yourself, does an administrator at a California liberal arts college really know that much about the LACs in New England or Indiana or North Carolina? Does the adminstrator at U Wisconsin know enough about UCLA to make a real judgment on its merits? </p>

<p>It’s also too bad that so many HS students who visit here seem more interested in a school’s perceived “prestige” than in whether it really provides a good educational experience or whether it’s a good personal fit.</p>

17

<p>OK, so you at least concede my original point. That’s all you said that I really objected to. Thanks for that. I will concede I did not state one part of my posting very well. What I meant to say was that if you go by average SAT scores only, Tulane is #30 on that same list of schools that USNWR uses, and I think now it will go up. To answer your question, W&L is higher than that, although I am not sure where they are exactly. Probably around #22-23. It’s a great school.</p>

<p>

Actually, if you used that increase against last years numbers, Tulane would have moved up 4 spots. It is fairly significant in an area where getting a change is usually very difficult. We will just have to wait and see how much other schools moved up or down in the same area. I didn’t mention the absolute scores because I was only pointing out that your contention that Tulane was not moving in the right direction was incorrect. You have now said that is right, so great.</p>

<p>

A little snide, but no problem. I do not work for Tulane, I am not paid. I love the school. But if you really searched my posting history you would see I have often recommended other schools when Tulane was obviously not the right fit, was too expensive, etc. The reason I search for references to Tulane is that there is often so much misinformation and incorrect statements, yours being a small example.</p>

<p>As far as increased quality across the board, beyond the academics Tulane is leading the way in the rebuilding of the New Orleans school system and has been very involved in helping small businesses get started/restarted, the architecture school has seen numerous projects come to completion that help the local communities, and I mentioned the recognition by the Carnegie Foundation, Time Magazine, and there have been others. So to say I did not demonstrate anything is just not correct. All your mentions of dropping in ranking were incorrect, but again I did not state it well. Actually Tulane inched up from #51 to #50.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Well actually, they do suck, but OK. First of course Tulane hasn’t slipped lately, as we have discussed. 25% of the USNWR is “peer assessment”. Suppose you are a professor in the Northeast, so you get to know the schools in your area very well, and there is a high denisity of them there. Same with the California system. Now suppose that after Katrina, all you knew was that Tulane was closed for a semester, the city was still not rebuilt in many areas (not knowing, most likely, that it has nothing to do with the Uptown area of Tulane). Tulane is going to suffer based on these factors. Then there are other factors that USNWR claims represent indicators of quality such as graduation rates, retention, and they used to use admission rates and yields, although I am not sure if they still use those. There was no correcting for Katrina in Tulane’s case, but of course it made these numbers look bad. We will see how it goes as that gets further in the rear view mirror.</p>

<p>But there is nothing scientific about the USNWR formula. They did not develop it and test it in any fashion that resembled a scientific method. What does “best” even mean? It is all quite silly.</p>

18

<p>So your argument is 1) Tulane’s ranking hasn’t slipped and 2) it only slipped because of Hurricane Katrina. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Actually, I was taking your remark here at face value:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>It’s now ranked 50th, and (according to you) it was once 30th. Can you see that 50th is a lower ranking than 30th? </p>

<p>People will say things you disagree with from time to time. In this case, if someone says “Tulane has been resting on its laurels for decades” you might respond “actually, that is no longer true (link) (link) (link)” with the links pointing toward objective data supporting your point. To instead fire up your Tulane-o-Matic Attack Machine (which I admit is most impressive, despite the extreme lack of objectivity) instead leaves the impression that you are protesting too much by an order of magnitude or two, and anyone may be excused for wondering why.</p>

<p>You have still failed to produce a single ranking by anyone anywhere in support of your contentions.</p>

19

<p>I agree with Marsden. It is an easy choice here. Some Tulane loyalists will try to convince you otherwise but don’t fall for it. Tulane marketing rivals that of DeVry.</p>

20

<p>I am sorry you cannot read what I said correctly, Marsden. I agreed I did not clearly state that the #30 was where it ranks based on SAT scores only. I said that the dropping in ranking you attributed to me was my poor wording. I am sorry you are not gracious enough to accept that.</p>

<p>I don’t need to produce rankings. I don’t believe in rankings. Technically the SAT averages are not a ranking, but a statistical fact. Your statement was that Tulane was resting on its laurels. That has nothing to do with rankings, and I produced numerous examples of accomplishments and improvements over the last decade. I didn’t even include being on a few 25 Hottest Schools list and the like within the last 5 years.</p>

<p>You admitted your original statement was incorrect. I don’t understand why you continue to argue.</p>