<p>You are a URM in the classical sense… if colleges didn’t change the admissions process up a little bit for ‘URMs’ there would be much fewer of them gaining admission to the school. Its more like a ‘potentially under represented minority’ than actual URM… otherwise the schools would get a lot of heat for being discriminatory or supremacist and the like.</p>
<p>What do you mean, “the classical sense”? Are you saying that, generally, Native applicants are less qualified than other ethnic groups and, thus, are given an advantage in admissions?</p>
<p>I know that people hate to talk about affirmative action, but what would your particular take on AA in Stanford’s process be? As you know, I am a Native applicant (who has spoken a lot with Stanford’s liaison to Native applicants, Adrienne Keene) and I would say Stanford is probably my top choice (particularly because of the school’s strong Native community). </p>
<p>How do you think this will play into my admissions decision (from Stanford particularly)? I specifically ask you because you seem to be a well-informed (as well as helpful) individual…would you perhaps read my essays for Stanford as well?</p>
<p>Don’t twist my words around, I’m saying that studies have shown that if the same admissions proceedures were to be used regardless of the applicants ethnicity you would find top schools to be about 55% asian and 40% white. I’m not going to launch into a debate as to why this is. I can’t speak for Princeton or any school really besides Stanford, but, yes, Native Americans are definitely given an advantage because otherwise there would hardly be any there… and that’s not good for diversity. PM me with your questions, this thread isn’t the place to ask them.</p>
<p>According to that study done at Princeton by Espenshade, when you disregard ethnicity, African-American numbers would fall by nearly two-thirds while the number of Hispanics would be halved.</p>
<p>The “base” numbers of whites and Asians wouldn’t change, but of these spots newly “vacated” by African-Americans and Hispanics, whites would fill 20% and Asians would take 80%. So Beef, maybe you meant 55% white and 40% Asian?</p>
<p>Who cares about this thread? It’s Princeton!!!</p>
<p>Everyone and anyone who’s important is there…</p>
<p><em>goes down on knees and prays to the Princetonian gods for an acceptance letter</em></p>
<p>With that logic I’m sure that’d be more accurate ray, I was just throwing out numbers before.</p>
<p>BeefSupreme, I don’t believe you are correct. Put up a citation. There is no ethnic group that covers the entire admissions matrix. It is not just about gpas and test scores. Each school has an admission matrix of a desired class. What you here from all schools is that the asian prospects tend to be quite similar in application profile. Whether that is true I don’t know, but the admissions matrix is designed to promote the attributes of a given class. I don’t believe any ethnic group holds a lock on 50% of every matrix attribute.</p>
<p>The premise of this thread is a tad ridiculous.</p>
<p>The question posed by the OP is a legitimate one. Students from lower class, working class, middle class, or minority backgrounds might not feel comfortable surrounded by rich white kids. Just a thought. (Yes, I’m suggesting that it’s reasonable for certain people to have a distaste for the wealthy. No, I am not discounting the benefits of hanging around people who are different than you are.) Clearly the OP is not well informed about Princeton’s demographics, so cut him some slack for the innocent stereotype.</p>
<p>Yeah, and rich white students might not feel comfortable surrounded by kids from lower class, working class, middle class, or minority backgrounds.</p>
<p>Beef Supreme is a star all over CC.</p>
<p>Mustafah, thank you. I was trying to convey that feeling, but couldn’t into words.</p>
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<p>That’s nice. I’m sure the rich white students wouldn’t have any trouble congregating with the other rich white students who make up at least 20-30% of Princeton’s student body. You’re trying to draw a parallel where there is none.</p>
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<p>I think youre quite high on your estimate, Mustafah. Below are the most recent percentages reported for first year students needing financial aid. Youll see that Princeton actually has the highest percentage of needy first years.</p>
<p>Since only about half of Princetons undergraduates are U.S. Caucasians you would be suggesting that 40% to 60% of those are rich. Im not certain how you define rich but the numbers certainly dont seem to suggest that Princeton is filled with wealthy students. I needed a large amount of financial aid and had a campus job. I can honestly say I didn’t know anyone who came from great wealth. I’m sure there were some but they didn’t stand out. </p>
<p>Percentage of First Year Students Determined to Have Financial Need (U.S. News)</p>
<p>55%—Princeton
54%—Harvard
52%—Columbia
50%—Dartmouth
46%—Yale
45%—Brown
42%—Cornell
39%—Penn</p>
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<p>Essentially, yes. I’m estimating that 40% to 60% of Princeton’s white students are “rich” – that is, they come from families that have no or little financial need according to the generous university. I think the lower end of my estimate is closer to the truth, but the purpose of this exercise was just to demonstrate to kwu that it’s ridiculous to worry about wealthy white students feeling socially uncomfortable because they make up a sizeable portion of the student body.</p>
<p>To put this into perspective, 85% of the freshman class of 2007 came from families that make more than $53,500 per year ([Bloomberg.com:</a> News](<a href=“Politics - Bloomberg”>Politics - Bloomberg)). That’s more than what 55% of American households make ([HINC-06–Part</a> 1](<a href=“http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032007/hhinc/new06_000.htm]HINC-06--Part”>http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032007/hhinc/new06_000.htm)). So, just going by the numbers, students from poor, working-class, or solidly middle-class backgrounds might feel a little out of place. I think that’s what the OP was getting at.</p>
<p>Mustafah, youre correct about the numbers but I believe youre misinterpreting them. </p>
<p>Its true that the average household income in the U.S. is about $50,000.00. At Princeton, as at all of the Ivies, the majority of students will be from families with household incomes between $50,000.00 and $75,000.00 per year, so, yes, they come from households with above average income. Still, keep in mind that the average household income of all U.S. college-bound students is always above the average for the nation. The reason for this is both sad and obvious. Those families with incomes below the average tend to live in areas where the public school systems are generally weaker and where a much smaller percentage of high school graduates go to college. The average household income of those with bachelors degrees in the U.S. is a little under $70,000.00 and a high percentage of applicants to all colleges come from those families.</p>
<p>So, while a household income in the $70,000.00 range certainly does put these households in a category that is above the average (in fact, its about the 70th percentile) its not what I understood you to mean by rich which I would reserve for describing those in the top five or ten percent of the income distribution. I think we are simply disagreeing on the definition of rich. Also, keep in mind that a large percentage of the minority applicants at these schools are also from these income ranges. It isnt just the white students.</p>
<p>Finally, I think the comments about wealthy white students feeling socially uncomfortable may have been written to be intentionally ironic.</p>
<p>You’re right: all this confusion stems from the definition of the word “rich.” According to Princeton’s website, 98% of financial aid applicants whose families make between $160,000 and $180,000 are deemed to have “financial need” ([Princeton</a> University | Who Qualifies for Aid?](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/admission/financialaid/how_it_works/who_qualifies/]Princeton”>http://www.princeton.edu/admission/financialaid/how_it_works/who_qualifies/)). That means those 45% of students who don’t receive financial aid must be within the top 5% of the income distribution or have massive assets to compensate. Either way, that’s “rich” in most people’s books.</p>
<p>Having reasoned that about 50% of Princeton students are “rich” by common standards, I went on to estimate that 40% to 60% of those rich students are white. That’s how I got my 20%-to-30%-of-Princeton-students-are-rich-white-kids figure. Might be a little off, but 20% doesn’t seem like a stretch to me.</p>
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<p>According to Princeton’s statistics on who qualifies for financial aid, students whose families make between $0 and $75,000 per year with typical assets receive full tuition, room and board. So you’re suggesting that the majority of students receive a full ride and that almost every student receiving financial aid comes from a family making less than $75,000 per year. Can that really be the case?</p>
<p>Wow sources and everything Mustafah rocks</p>
<p>Mustafah, your logic looked solid so I contacted someone I know in the Princeton administration and asked the question. I was misinformed. Im told that about half of Princeton undergraduates come from families with household incomes under $100,000.00 but thats a much higher figure than I had thought previously and places the other half in the top 15% or so of family incomes. </p>
<p>Princetons financial aid cutoffs are similar to those at its peers so that the percentages reported for first year students needing financial aid is a pretty good comparison of the average household incomes of the students at each of the schools. It thus makes me wonder what the equivalent family income numbers look like for schools with a much lower percentage of students requiring financial aid! Im assuming they would have to be significantly higher.</p>
<p>At any rate, your point has more merit to it than I had at first thought. I came from a family with a household income far lower than $100,000.00 and even lower than the national average (by quite a bit). </p>
<p>Youve just made me realize how lower middle class I was! I suppose its to Princetons credit that I never felt it while a student.</p>
<p>Responding subjectively to the OP, I’m a student here right now, and I’ll just say this: Yes, there are “rich white people” on campus. No, they don’t “dominate”, nor are they “everywhere”. Again, I’ll say subjectively what everyone else has been using statistics to try to prove - Princeton is a very diverse place. If you want to find groups where people whine about how they can only go to Acapulco for Spring Break (…yes, that was a comment my friend overheard), you will find them. If you want to steer clear of them, you’ll have no trouble doing it.</p>