<p>I know its a typo but math “curses” made me laugh. That’s exactly how they felt to me when I was in school.</p>
<p>Sent from my Eris using CC</p>
<p>Universities typically offer more than one sequence of calculus. At a major research university there is often a business sequence, one or two different sequences for science majors (pre-meds would fall here) and a theory sequence. Your daughter may not be with pre-meds depending on her major. </p>
<p>If you google “math placement test online” there are some free practice tests that might give you and her a better idea of where she’s at for college placement. Depending on her current Alg. 2 course, she might be ready for business calculus. Our local CC will administer placement tests even without enrollment. </p>
<p>If math isn’t her strength, it would be in her best interest to not take a break in her math classes. She should take whatever courses needed (either remedial or prerequisites) until she finishes the calculus/math requirements for her major.</p>
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I have two problems with this. 1) Precalculus is typically only a one semester course. Spending another whole year - doing what? Precalculus and calculus lite? It seems like overkill. 2) Spending a year at a cc then means she is a transfer student at “the real university” rather than a freshman, which makes scholarships/financing more tricky. Also the whole degree plan less continuous.</p>
<p>Depending on the school, starting in Pre-calculus and then proceeding to whatever the required calculus is in the spring semester is less likely to set her back an entire year.</p>
<p>Even within a specific major what the ‘weeder’ classes are will depend on the specific university. What AP credit my e’school son decided to take, and what he decided to waive and retake in college would have been completely different if he had chosen his other top contender university. They use a different approach to the first two years and weeder classes are different there. It is also true at his university that STEM students take different calc classes then students in a humanities major would take.</p>
<p>I thought “math curses” was a Freudian slip. Haystack, you do see kids proceed successfully from Algebra 2 to Calc 1, without a layer of harder algebra or precalc in between?</p>
<p>The insights on this thread have raised some new things to consider. We know (for reasons beyond the scope of this thread) that we are looking at state directional, and we will be full payors (so the impact of a transfer on a scholarship is a non-issue). She is a high schooler for now, and we are projecting about a 3.0, no honors, with 1000 or 1050 CRM SAT, so our state flagship with its multiple versions of calculus offered every semester (where you need a 3.6 & 1200 to get in) will not be an option.</p>
<p>I agree that taking a year and starting at CC for this reason alone may seem rather drastic. But we have other reasons to look kindly at the CC – it’s a very good CC, with two-thirds of enrollees transferring out to four-year schools, and math going up to differential equations. CC would give her the chance to find her feet academically, be more certain of her chosen field. She might get into better four-year schools as a transfer (such as the flagship) than she would have access to as a 12th grade applicant, and she would graduate debt-free, maybe with some money left over.</p>
<p>The wrinkle in all this is if she wants to pursue one of the very specialized programs where you need to be on the four-year campus all four years, and you need to enter ready to take calculus. If that’s really her goal, and her calculus readiness is shaky (as best we can assess it at that time) then I could see her putting in the fifth year first, cheaply, at CC, getting ready for the calculus, maybe attending part-time, and maybe banking some generic electives that would transfer over and lighten her load at the four-year school.</p>
<p>The challenge will be to assess her readiness for calculus at the end of 12th. At our CC, one must enroll to take the Accuplacer. You can always drop after seeing your score. I am not sure that the Accuplacer by itself is going to offer much insight. Someone mentioned online assessments. I would also (gladly) pay a math professor to meet with her privately and evaluate her at that time. It would be money well spent, if steered in the right direction; better than a disastrous first semester at a four-year school.</p>
<p>What we will probably do (she is not yet in 12th grade) is let her apply where they have what she thinks she might want, evaluate the acceptances, and dig very carefully into the details of the curricula at that time, to see what she would be getting into.</p>
<p>I agree that it’s really important to keep taking math every year until you’re really finished with it. Especially if you’re not a “math person”. I had personal experience with this – high SATs, stopped math after Algebra 2 in 11th, no math first year of college, and then took Calc 1 the summer after 1st year. It was miserable. I squeaked by and changed my major. But the whole thing could have been handled so much better, if somebody had told me (a) stay in math every year, (b) take precalculus, (c) avoid summer math if it’s not your thing because it moves too rapidly.</p>
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<p>If that is the case, then the student will likely have to take a remedial precalculus course that includes trigonometry in college before taking calculus, unless the college offers a “light” calculus (for business and social studies majors or something like that) that does not require that prerequisite.</p>
<p>Most colleges (including community colleges as well as four year schools) have math placement testing for entering freshmen (although whether it is mandatory placement or merely advisory depends on the college).</p>
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<p>Do you mean to say that business and social science majors curse at the thought of taking math courses? :)</p>
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<p>However, taking any college courses after graduating from high school could cause many four year colleges to require that she apply as a transfer. Since schools accepting transfers are most friendly to those who are ready to transfer as juniors, she would likely have to stay at the CC until she is transfer-ready as a junior. You and she may want to check the state universities of interest to see what their policies are in this respect, and whether the specific major in question accepts transfer students.</p>
<p>The math dept at my school has found that the 2 key determinants for success in college math are…</p>
<p>1) Take the math placement exam and take the math course it recommends. Don’t be a hero and take a higher math course than what you are qualified for. Starting next fall, the math placement will be mandatory.</p>
<p>2) Take a math course as a senior in high school. You lose math skills quickly. Many students take Alg II as a HS junior and nothing as a senior, take the math placement exam and are placed in Calc/Matrix Algebra for Business, and then really struggle in the class.</p>
<p>Very few students go from Alg II in HS to Calc 1 in college because there is no reason to. None of the business majors, social sciences or humanities require Calc 1. A major like Geosicence requires Calc II. But they don’t prescribe how to get there. You could take Pre-calc, Calc I, and then Calc II. Or you could start with Calc I. Again, it really depends on your HS prep. </p>
<p>If would have to ask myself, if a major requires Calc I to be taken as a first semester frosh, and I had a kid not ready for that and not interested in math, then is that major appropriate for my kid? Or, take a pre-calc course at a CC summer before frosh year.</p>
<p>ucb, you raise an important concern. I’ve been through the CDS for the prospective four-year schools we’ve identified, and most do prefer transfers with associates’ degrees.<br>
That’s fine if the programs articulate. But it doesn’t work so well if you select a more technical four-year major, with courses tightly sequenced and not all offered every semester or year, and the first- or second-year courses not offered at the CCs.</p>
<p>Haystack, do you think the summer pre-calc (immediately after 12th grade) would be “illegal” and would turn the student into a transfer? One admissions officer I know has told me that at her school, when someone is admitted and postpones enrollment for a gap year, any coursework during that year would violate the terms of the delayed enrollment and turn the kid into a transfer applicant. We did not discuss preparatory work the summer between 12th grade and freshman year.</p>
<p>I share your concern about whether a person is well-suited to a major when they are not well-suited to the foundational math for the major. Ultimately, I think one must discern whether the math is something the person would need to be fluent with, in the course of their day-to-day professional life in the field, or whether it’s an academic hoop to be jumped through on your way to the professional life. I think people working in the field would know. Take landscape architects, for example. I don’t question the calculus requirement, but success in that field probably depends more upon one’s creative vision for a piece of land, and the ability to convey that verbally and visually to the client, the mortgage banker, the zoning board, and the guy with the backhoe. An engineer is probably pulled in as part of the team, long before the landscape architect would be asked to do calculus problems in the course of her work. The pharmacist at CVS is not behind the counter doing organic chemistry problems (although I’m glad she took the course, when I ask about possible drug incompatibilities).</p>
<p>A summer class taken at the CC after already being admitted to the 4-year college/u would not confer transfer status. It would just be a random summer course that might or might not transfer for credit to the college/u in question. If your daughter does get into the program that she wants, it is OK for her to consult with the faculty there about her math situation, and get their recommendation about which math course(s) at this particular CC would be most advantageous for her to take the summer before her freshman year of college.</p>
<p>If she is seriously considering a year at the CC before applying to the 4-year institution(s), she should check their specific requirements for applying as a transfer. It is entirely possible that she might still be considered a Freshman applicant if she has completed less than a full year of college credits.</p>
<p>Happykid’s CC uses the Accuplacer. From my observation of Happykid and her friends there, it does place them very accurately. Whether this is true at a CC with a different math sequence is a question that I can’t answer, but would be worth addressing with the counseling staff at that CC.</p>
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<p>Does the major at the school in question have such a tightly sequenced schedule that having to start in precalculus would throw off the whole schedule and cause late graduation? I.e. if the student has to take precalculus and calculus 1 in the first year (perhaps “catching up” by taking calculus 2 in the following summer) instead of calculus 1 and calculus 2 in the first year, would it throw off any important courses in the spring of the first year that have calculus 1 as a prerequisite?</p>
<p>The only majors that I know of that pretty much require calculus 1 (or higher) as a first semester freshman are in the engineering and physical sciences areas, but such majors seem to be unlikely choices for someone relatively weak in math.</p>
<p>There may be some flexibility. Some of the schools require calculus, some do not even require it for the same major, so it’s evidently not a universal requirement for someone to enter the field. Although I’m sure the programs with more stringent requirements pride themselves on that, and it may open more doors with employers.</p>
<p>The calculus-including programs list it in the first year (to the extent that they map out the four years on their website). This may be preferred but not essential. It depends what the prerequisite domino sequence is, to take other necessary things and still graduate in four years.</p>
<p>She’s not yet in 12th, so it’s premature to take this up with the colleges. If she were in 12th today, I’d let her apply wherever she’s interested. If accepted, then talk turkey with the accepting schools in April about math placement, necessary sequence, and options.</p>
<p>The main thing I want to avoid is committing to a school, declining other offers, maybe moving her in, and then getting meaningful placement feedback, it being confirmed that she needs a semester or two of math before calculus, and discovering at that time that that she’ll be essentially marching in place for a year on a tightly sequenced curriculum and we’re now obligated for five expensive years (when it could have been CC and four expensive years.) This thread has been helpful, and I am receptive to any further comments.</p>
<p>What is to prevent her from taking a math class this summer that would allow her to take pre-calc in 12th grade? Depending on where she takes that class, it might be entirely non-credit and so not produce an academic transcript that she would need to include in her college applications.</p>
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<p>Have you checked whether calculus is actually in the long sequence of prerequisites at those schools?</p>
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<p>Be aware that this option is not likely, due to the usual requirement of being a transfer student if one has taken college courses after graduating from high school. The CC route option would likely be taking 2 (or 3 if lots of remedial work is needed) years at CC, then transferring as a junior to a four year school. If the CCs are overflowing, or do not offer sufficient articulated courses for the major at the four year school, that can cause additional delays.</p>
<p>If you’re in a major that outright requires calc then things are pretty straightforward. If not, things could get interesting in a hurry.</p>
<p>Based on DD1’s high 600’s SAT math, she did not have to take college algebra. The class is not required in architecture, but required college-wide as part of their core curriculum (1 math class, 1 science, yada yada). So, DD1 strolled by freshman advising and was told that there’s mystery calc 1 and mystery calc 2 in the plan of study. Such classes could be AP’d out or placement tested out and according to the dept of architecture, ‘most kids coming in already had AP credit so we don’t specifically require them, but we nudge-wink require them’. In such cases calc becomes a ‘required elective’. </p>
<p>The deep reason is that sometime in junior year they take a couple classes cross listed with civil engineering, and the engineers naturally had kittens when they realized the architects could not integrate to save their life. Also, many arch grad schools seem to require 1 year of calc these days, as well as a year of physics. So, the ‘required elective’ was created. With a bit of luck, college algebra satisfies the math requirement (part of core) and DD1 gets credit for it.</p>
<p>A similar logic in physics. One semester is required, but most grad programs require a year… Physics 1 is in the curriculum, Physics 2 is a mystery required elective… The curriculum requires phys 1 sophomore fall year and has a nice elective spot spring of sophomore year for the phys 2…</p>
<p>The same (otherwise well functioning and respected) state flagship requires everyone to take an art or history of art class. Architecture students there take a minimum of three, typically four classes, yet none of these can be used to satisfy the art requirement. DD1 ended up taking it at the local community college…</p>
<p>Bottom line - even if you can see the PDF with the plan of study, make sure you walk thru it with some carbon-based adviser life form to identify such misadventures, especially when planning for a major where math requirements are not always cast in stone (vis-a-vis electives outside the department, grad school, and so on).</p>