<p>What does this 50-50 thing really mean… Every college rep from NYU has told me this but what does this really mean about the relationship between academics and audition? That academics are half as important as they are for other students? That the audition just simply influences the decision based on the academic record?</p>
<p>I believe that it would mean that the academics and the audition are considered equally when they are making admissions decisions.</p>
<p>Kat is correct. It means that your academics and your audition are equally important. Your academics should be 'in the ballpark' for NYU admissions, and your audition, like at every other BFA program, should be prepared for with much thought, consideration, and rehearsal.</p>
<p>NYU actually cares that the young people it admits for acting and musical theater are good students who are intellectually curious about the world. That's where the academic portion comes into play.</p>
<p>It was also my understanding that the admissions process is really bifurcated i.e. that the admissions office determines the academic admission based on academic criteria and Tisch determines the talent admission based on the audition, that these are 2 different processes, and that is what is meant by "50-50". This could result in a student being accepted by Tisch but if not accepted academically by admissions, the student is out. Perhaps Alwaysamon, NMR or soozie could comment further on this?</p>
<p>Michael, it isn't quite like the schools that have bifurcated processes with two separate admissions....such as Elon or OCU, for example, where you are accepted separately to the university and to the MT program. </p>
<p>At NYU, it is ONE process and it is all or nothing. You either are admitted to the whole thing (university and the BFA) or not at all. </p>
<p>But as others have written, the decision to admit a candidate is equally weighted on the academic side (and that is holistic and not just "stats") and the artistic review. You have to pass muster in both areas and both count as much as the other, whereas at some schools, where there is one process, the audition might be weighted more than the academic admission. The schools that are bifurcated would require you to get into each part of the university separately. But at NYU, it is ONE process both both "reviews", academic and artistic, count equally. </p>
<p>If someone is considering NYU, they need to look at the academic qualifications of those who have been admitted (this is published) and the admit rate to the university itself (which is very selective) and needs to be in the ballpark for that academic profile of admitted students for this university. On the artistic end, it is a very selective BFA program with a very low admit rate that draws from a national talent pool. So, a candidate truly needs to be able to meet the academic criteria for admission like any NYU applicant, but also the usual audition based artistic criteria. This is not a school where one should apply due to having top level artistic talent but with no regard to the academic qualifications to be admitted because the academics count 50% of the admission decision and NYU is a very academically selective college. I have seen students pick out this school (or others of its academic level of selectivity) with NO regard of what it takes academically to be admitted but simply choose the school because it offers MT and they want to attend. But that is not how it works. I have seen people put the school on their list and not be REMOTELY in the ballpark academically. </p>
<p>Both academic qualifications and artistic ones need to be weighed and to be somewhat in reach of the ballpark for NYU. </p>
<p>As NMR says, NYU's BFA program not only wants very talented students with artistic skills, but those who value a broader based education and bring an intellectual curiosity to their work. Artistic talent alone is not enough to be admitted to NYU/Tisch. A candidate needs to be competitive both academically and artistically with the admitted talent pool to NYU. </p>
<p>I have to say that in my line of work, as well as in my observations on this forum, I have seen SOME students choose a college list based on the mere fact that the schools offer MT and with no regard to the academic selectivity level of the college and the qualifications of admitted students to that college, as if it didn't matter. Not only does it matter at most schools, but at NYU in particular, it counts for 50% of the admissions decision AND it is also a very academically selective university. I have seen kids who have academic "stats" that NYU has accepted 0% with those stats, and who have NYU/Tisch at the top of their college list.</p>
<p>I'd look at it this way: Nobody in NYU's admissions department is going to be pushing to admit a kid to a BFA or BM program with amazing stats but weak scores on the auditions. But the NYU performing arts Deans do state that they will push for a kid who is a strong talent but may fall a bit short on the academic side. You sometimes see some lopsided academic records with performig arts kids. But with holistic admissions, the arts Dean can convince the admissions people that a kid's 500 math SAT is compensated for by his top verbal scores, AP success in humanities type courses, and glowing recommendations from English teachers. So the process isn't really bifurcated. </p>
<p>Academic slouches will not get admitted to NYU. But like every college, 25% of the kids admitted fall in the bottom quarter of admitted students. Some of them are talented performing arts students whose talent stood out from the thousands who apply. Soozie probably has an educted guess about just how low the stats of that bottom quarter drop. (It can't be TOO low, that's for sure.)</p>
<p>StickerShock (love that screenname, by the way) says "You sometimes see some lopsided academic records with performig arts kids. But with holistic admissions, the arts Dean can convince the admissions people that a kid's 500 math SAT is compensated for by his top verbal scores, AP success in humanities type courses, and glowing recommendations from English teachers."</p>
<p>Absolutely this must be true and furthermore, in my opinion, <em>should</em> be true. A would-be acting or musical theater major who wants to go to NYU and has mediocre but respectable math SAT scores but strong grades in high school math and very strong scores/grades in humanities and social science courses shouldn't be penalized, I don't think, for that lower math score simply because, as a NYU acting or MT student, that kid won't have to take any higher level math classes, anyway, if he or she doesn't want to.</p>
<p>SS...I honestly do not know how much "negotiating" goes on between those on Tisch's artistic review panel and those in the NYU admissions office. I think that a student who applies to NYU still has to pass academic admissions no matter how much the artistic review people like the kid. Of course, a range of stats are admitted to NYU. But I have seen kids who apply whose stats are not within range at ALL....I'm not talking just below the mid 50% tile....because of course 25% of those admitted are below that range (though the rate of acceptance would drop in that range). For example, I have seen kids with SAT subtest scores in the 400's and GPAs of 2.7 to 3.0 with no Honors and no AP courses and a weak curriculum, who are in the lower 50% of their HS class, who have very few achievements of note, who are weak writers, who have NYU/Tisch on their list. This is not the same as someone with a strong GPA, a challenging HS curriculum, strong extracurriculars with achievements, is in the top 25% of their HS class, has a score on the SAT CR and W in range for NYU but who simply has a lowish Math SAT.</p>
<p>While there may be some wiggle room in the academic stats (and this is the case in every NYU college, not just Tisch), there is very little, if any, negotiating between Tisch and the NYU admissions office re: auditioning students. Certainly none by either Dean Campbell or the chair of the Drama Dept., Elizabeth Bradley.</p>
<p>Soozie, I'd think that with the huge number of NYU applicants who are complete packages, the school has plenty of kids from which to pick who don't need anyone negotiating on their behalf. It would have to be an extraordinary talent to get that kind of attention, I'd imagine.</p>
<p>How do you keep a straight face when kids & parents come for a consult with 2.7 GPAs & hope to get into competitive schools?</p>
<p>Listen to soozievt and alwaysamom, as they actually know what they are talking about! :)</p>
<p>I admit to not reading as carefully as I should have SS's sentence which I quoted, saying that the dean can "convince" the admissions people to admit a student with lower math SAT scores, for instance. I intended to respond to the statement that if a kid applying for Tisch drama has decent but not spectacular math SAT scores but strong high school math grades, a challenging curriculum, etc. etc. (and all within the range for NYU's accepted stats), then it does make sense to me that that one less-than-stellar but still decent SAT score not knock a talented kid who is a strong student out of the running. </p>
<p>I did not mean in any way, shape or form to encourage students whose stats are well below the accepted range for NYU to apply. From what I hear, an unfortunate number of high school students who do not have the stats for various more academically demanding schools such as NYU nonetheless insist on applying, as they "know" that talent counts for more, or believe (for some reason ... rumor, maybe?) that their talent is such that it will far outshadow their less-than-strong high school transcript. The result is that those students will waste time and money and be disappointed.</p>
<p>My perception matches what AlwaysAMom posted (and she likely knows a bit more on this) that the Tisch administrators are not negotiating with the admissions at NYU to take kids who do well on the artistic review. I think NYU admissions has wiggle room with ALL applicants and a range of applicants are admitted (see the published stats) but the fact remains, that the acceptance rate is quite low and that the stats of admitted students does fall in a particular range. </p>
<p>I see far too many students and parents who create a list of "I want" schools because they offer "good MT" with NO regard to their qualifications vis a vis the school. NONE. It does boggle my mind when I even lay out the statistics and for example, I can show in black and white that a particular college has accepted NOBODY who is below the 25% of their HS class (I am not talking of NYU at the moment) and NOBODY with an SAT in their range, etc. and they still want to apply. I have seen students with an SAT of CR/M of 1000 and a GPA of 3.0 who want Yale. I am not kidding. I see this a LOT. SS, it is a delicate balance in working with such students because I try to give an HONEST and REALISTIC assessment of their chances and I outline a LOT of information to back that up. They can choose to listen or not (many DO listen and some do not) and I try to help them balance their list and build an appropriate list (and the final choice of where to apply sits with the student, not me). I can only advise. Some only want "top schools" they have heard of. Some are very very unrealistic about the artistic odds and some are very very unrealistic about their own academic odds (in some cases, their academic odds are nil for the schools they are interested in). Some will say, "but the audition counts more than the academics" (at schools other than NYU where that isn't true) but while that is true, academics STILL count and you still have to be admitted academically a very few schools will disregard all academics or have an extremely low bar academically (a few schools have very low bars but most have SOME minimum bar). I have had many students with GPAs of 2.7 or some with 3.0 and many students with SATs on the CR/M anywhere from 790 -1000 and a very average and unchallenging HS courseload and they have schools like NYU on their list. I see many create a list of schools or even ask on CC....which schools offer MT as if that is all that needs to be considered in selectingn a college. You'd be surprised. I have had a few students add a school with my strong encouragement because I felt the rest of their list was not realistic to yield results and several of these students ended up with one acceptance and it was to the school that I urged them to add and where they are now happily attending. Left to their own list, they'd not be in a good position now.</p>
<p>You are right that the competition is so stiff to get into a very well regarded BFA in MT combined with a very selective academically university, that they have no need to accept a student who just happens to be a really great singer, for example, when they can find plenty of students who are great singers, actors, dancers, have a good GPA, good SATs, a decent HS ranking, good essays and recs, have committed extracurriculars with achievements, and so on. It is not enough to just be able to have a great voice. Many do not understand this. </p>
<p>Even on the artistic end, some are unrealistic. They like MT but have never broken out of ensemble in their local setting and don't have much training either. They still may stand a chance but don't realize the hundreds of candidates out there that they will be up against who stood out in their local communities and also have some training and so forth. It is hard enough with the odds even if you HAVE achieved locally in MT and have adequate training. I was leary about my own kid's odds who had all those things and even state and national level recognition but would be much more concerned if she hadn't been able to rise up locally or hadn't trained much at all in the field when there are tons of kids out there who have. </p>
<p>Frankly, if I were an adcom for a BFA in MT, I would want the candidate to be a very decent student....need not to a top student but a good student. I know the rigors of a BFA program first hand, having a child of my own who is a senior in one and a certain level of work ethic and time management and motivation and drive are needed. Even if things like math skills or social studies grades are not so pertinent in MT, the fact is that those who have handled HS coursework along with their MT activities and done it well, tend to fare better in a BFA program and not just kids who are merely talented. I see this in my own line of work. Those who are good students seem to be able to manage the college application tasks and do them well and without a lot of nagging and are on top of things. Those who struggle even to do any of the admissions tasks and fit any of it into their lives, correlate directly with the students are are also not as good of an academic student. They will take weeks to do an assigned college admissions task "because they are busy" but the students who are getting the good grades and are busier with much harder classes and more extracurricular responsibilities, stay on task. And if I am seeing that just in the work they do with me on the admissions process, I think it carries over to how they will fare in a BFA program, no matter how well they sing, dance, or act. These programs are intense and a certain kind of student is going to do well and a certain kind of student iis going to struggle to stay afloat and manage their time and responsibilities.</p>
<p>NMR...I agree with you that in college admissions, one can have a lowish math score if it is compensated by a strong math HS curriculum and good grades in math. Admissions is holistic and so it is not cut and dry that a certain score will put you out. Sometimes a weak link can be compensated by some other factor that makes up for it. A kid may not do well on a standardized math test but shows strong achievement in math classes and that would balance things out. Selective schools do not just look at a score and say "in" or "out" but they evaluate the entire application file. For instance, NYU has several essays required and these are read and they matter.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I did not mean in any way, shape or form to encourage students whose stats are well below the accepted range for NYU to apply.
[/quote]
Neither did I. But if NYU is telling families at info sessions that the admissions department is willing to hear a case presented by the arts faculty on behalf of an extremely talented student, I have no reason to disbelieve them. I just think it is a rare scenario, given the huge number of talented kids who apply without any weak spots in their applications.</p>
<p>SS, did someone say that, at the info sessions, an admissions dept rep rlated that the arts faculty goes to bat for kids with lower scores or transcripts? That sure was not what my D and I heard when we attended an info session. (We are weird, so we attended the general info session and tour after my kid got in.) At our info session, the admissions officer merely said that for performing arts, students must satisfy both the academic admissions requirements and the audition requirements. Nothing was mentioned about the arts faculty "going to bat" for kids in any way, shape or form.</p>
<p>SS...a weak spot is OK if compensated by many strong spots. The weak spot just can't fall well below the level of qualfications that they admit though. In any case, academics DO count at NYU....not only do they count 50% of the overall admissions process, but the selectivity of the university is quite selective and should be taken into account. An applicant should be remotely in the ballpark if considering applying. Some may have weaker qualifications than others and still get in but need to be somewhere in the range of accepted students to NYU, that's all. </p>
<p>I honestly do not think that the Tisch arts faculty make a case to the admissions office about a candidate at NYU. I think Tisch submits the students who make it through their review and then the admissions office goes through the student application files and picks who makes it through their review (which is going on simultaneously over the winter) and these two sets of decisions are meshed. I don't think the Tisch faculty negotiates with the adcoms. I don't know the inner workings but that is not my understanding of it. I truly believe a candidate must pass muster at both reviews, artistic and academic. A range of students are accepted in both respects. You just have to be in that range. Even then, you can be denied admission because the acceptance rate is very low and thus very qualified candidates are still turned away.</p>
<p>EDIT...cross posted with NMR and I guess we are on the same wavelength of our understanding about admission to Tisch.</p>
<p>SS...I might add.....no matter how talented a drama candidate may be, their academic stats must be within the ballpark of those of accepted NYU students. Some will be lower than the norm, yes. But they can't fall below what NYU will accept, no matter how talented the student is artistically.</p>
<p>
[quote]
SS, did someone say that, at the info sessions, an admissions dept rep rlated that the arts faculty goes to bat for kids with lower scores or transcripts?
[/quote]
Yes. The arts faculty stated this.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Some may have weaker qualifications than others and still get in but need to be somewhere in the range of accepted students to NYU, that's all.
[/quote]
Of course. And this doesn't conflict with their stated willingness to push for a talented student who is not leading the pack in all academic measures. When the two sets of decisions are "meshed," there would then have to be some discussion between admissions & arts, correct? There will certainly be many more kids who pass both reviews than the programs can accommodate. The list will still have to be pruned. If a highly ranked talent was not admitted academically, why wouldn't the arts faculty question how far off the academic standard the student fell?</p>
<p>SS, I honestly do not know the inner workings at NYU. I wasn't under the impression that Tisch negotiates or goes to bat for their candidates with the admissions office. They could, I don't know. </p>
<p>But it is not like some schools where the student just has to pass over a certain bar academically to attend. The academic admissions counts 50% of the decision. NYU is looking to admit students, even to Tisch, that meet their overall criteria and not just over some minimum bar with the "numbers". This is HALF the admissions decision. It isn't like a school that counts the artistic review for the majority of the decision and the student just has to pass over a bar with the academic admission. The academic admission is a big part of their decision whether to admit at NYU, more so than at a number of other BFA programs (I don't think it counts as much at many of them.) They truly are looking for strong students holistically. I know some very talented kids artistically who I highly doubt can get into NYU as their academic profile is not in the ballpark. NYU cares about the whole package and also about educating students beyond the artistic training. A student has to be able to handle the academics at NYU (the liberal arts component). They look for personal qualities and so forth, as they do with ALL NYU applicants. They don't ease it up for the Tisch applicants. The fact is, since the admit rate to Tisch Drama is so low, there are enough candidates who have both the artistic talent and can pass the academic review that they do not need to take a talented actor who is not remotely in the academic ballpark. They WILL take someone who has a weak link, sure. But other things in their file would need to compensate.</p>
<p>Example, a few may get in with an SAT on the CR/M of 1130 (definitely admitted at a lower rate of acceptance though) but such a kid may have a 3.8 GPA in demanding classes and have some strong leadership or achievements on their record or be ranked in the top 10% of their HS class, or have superb recs and essays to compensate. That's not the same as someone with a 1050 CR/M SAT who has not taken challenging classes who has a 3.1 GPA and ranks in the 50%tile of their HS all together. So, one can't say, "oh, I know someone who got into NYU with an 1130 and so it can be done!" because while it has happened, yes, that person may have numerous strong things in the rest of the application to compensate whereas another kid or most kids with an 1130 on the CR/M won't get in. It is not so simple to compare these things or to go by some numerical measure out of context.</p>