Well crafted application

Parents Forum
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<p>A few posters on various threads have referred to the "well-crafted application." S is squared away (EA Tulane w DS schol, awaiting Stanford RD). We are now helping gS, who is a late bloomer to say the least re college.</p>

<p>Thumbnail: HS '04;did nothing re college, "lost" I think, no guidance from parents, poor guidance at school. Now motivated and grateful for our help.
3.0 GPA, decent but no better program (4Eng, 4 math, 3 sci... only 1 for lang; no H or AP, several tech courses which he liked). Only EC is AA club ice hockey (not avail in his hs). Worked pt sr. yr. Wants to major in Industrial Engineering or similar. Applying stateU (USNWR top 100 - just barely, Pr. Rev. top 351, 77% acc. rate) and nearby stateU(less competitive). Took SAT last wk, so don't know scores.</p>

<p>With S, he and I seemed to have instinctive feel for how to best present himself in applic. With gS, not so clear - how are you out there characterizing a "well crafted app" in a case like this? Have had good advice from Ask the Dean and S's (not gS's - don't get me started - GC) re missing for. language and a little re "intended major." gS said he would email me essay drafts last night, but no go yet so don't know how good they will be. In answer to "what have you been doing since hs?" he wrote "working in a grocery store and doing construction." Somehow that left me wanting more.</p>

<p>I came to CC too late for all but the empathy, debriefing and waiting re S. But not too late for gS to benefit from all your expertise. State U due 2/1, other is rolling. </p>

<p>Grateful for any ideas.</p>

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<p>jmmom:</p>

<p>I don't have much advice to offer, but if your S is interested in industrial engineering, his construction work might come in handy. He'll need to stress his math abilities; I would not worry too much about the foreign languages in his case. I suspect as well state universities go more by the numbers than the well-crafted essay. But he could expand on what he 's learned in his construction job in the essay.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>jmmon, is gS short for godson? </p>

<p>I think before thinking about a well-crafted application, your godson and your family will have to begin a college search for him. Or has he done that already? How does he know he likes Industrial Engineering? That is a specialized topic....does he have any insight into the profession?</p>

<p>As far as specific advice, I don't have any....sorry. But good luck on his application!</p>

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<p>The most important thing that he could do is raise his grades and make sure that he has an excellent SAT. Virtually all state universities go mainly by the numbers. The essays are basically an empty exercise as are the EC info. </p>

<p>What counts most is gpa in academic subjects and SAT scores. Some state universities recalculate gpas, adding weight for IB/AP courses, and counting only academic courses in the revised gpa.</p>

<p>Have you looked on the colleges' web sites to find out what they consider for admission? You may even be able to find profiles of their freshmen classes, which would let you know what kind of gpa and scores your S would need.</p>

<p>Also, are you sure that your S meets the colleges requirements when it comes to courses taken in h.s.? I know that some colleges require at least 2 years of a foreign language, and if one hasn't taken those, one needs to take them before starting college.</p>

<p>My suggestion would be to have your S also apply to less competitive universities in state. I also strongly suggest that he start off by going to community college. If he wants to major in industrial engineering yet hasn't taken math/science courses for more than a year, he'll probably be struggling big time in college when he takes the math and science his major requires. Even if he was getting A grades in tough math/science courses, the year off wil have hurt him. </p>

<p>Are you sure he really wants to go to college? From how you describe him -- grades, demonstrated interests-- he doesn't sound particularly interested in college.</p>

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<p>I think Northstarmom has very good advice. It is not enough to have developed motivation, he needs to demonstrate it as well, particularly if your state has highly competitive 4 year universities. He should try to contact someone at a local community college as well as the universities he has applied to, with questions about transferring courses, etc. A young man in his position may prove to be much more successful than someone coming straight out of school, but he might be well served to start slowly, perhaps taking classes that are something of a review (particularly math and science) and a lighter load or at the less competitive school. There should be counselors at any school where he is applying, they should be able to help him formulate a plan for success, to strike a balance between being swallowed by the system or aimlessly taking classes at a community college that won't transfer.</p>

<p>I wouldn't be so concerned about whether or not he will get admitted as I would about his being set up for success after admission.</p>

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<p>from another post I think the jmmom is speaking of her Grandson (step) not son. And if he took SAT's last Sat. he should be able to get them online next Friday, so that should give you an idea of where he is at stats wise. Will he still be living in the same environment he was in for high school or will he be living on campus or will he residing with you (jmmom) in your home?</p>

<p>If you live in another state where the state universities are better than his current maybe having him move near you and attend there might help raise his ability to be successful, as shown by how well your son has done (EA at Tulane awaiting notification from Stanford). Even if he were to go to local CC for a year while residing near or with you and then matriculate to a 4 year would help. A major in IE will require some harder math and sciences and he will probably need some help.</p>

<p>Like you said you don't quite know how to "package" his application, I don't think he will know how to be truly successful in a much harder academic environment than high school especially for an IE major and a 4 year.</p>

<p>Good luck, it is hard coming in at the end and trying to make sense of it.
Good luck, especially to your GS.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>I agree with others that if he is interested in Big State U, a "well crafted application" is of less importance. After all, if an application won't be carefully scrutinized (as it might at a small LAC or other highly selective school), craft doesn't mean a lot. GPA and test scores will count heavily. On the plus side, your Big State U has a high acceptance rate (77%). And that was the more competitive of the State Us. So with a decent SAT score, he should get in at one or both of the State Us.</p>

<p>As for crafting an application--the easiest way to craft is to dove-tail the ECs/work experience into the proposed major. If there is an essay involved with the State U application, I'd de-emphasize "grocery store" and amp up the description of "construction" in the work description--be specific=>construction of houses including carpentry, plumbing, etc.--and in the essay talk about watching a house come up from bare ground and how this leads to your interest in Industrial Engineering. Have him explore what it is that interests him about Industrial Engineering (heck, I'm not sure what an Industrial Engineer does!), what influences in his life led him to IE, etc.</p>

<p>But with non-competitive State Us, the essay (if one is even required) will probably be used to screen out those who just can't write or can't be bothered to do a good job. In other words, it can probably only hurt you, not help you.</p>

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<p>Re essay advice maybe instead of trying to amp up/deemphasize, just have him explain why a year doing HS-graduate-level labor has motivated him to make a big life change & go to college. Lots of kids need to cure a little before they are ready & excited about college. Grocery store = real life = now I want to go to college.</p>

<p>I also second the CC advice. Find out from the University which Community colleges are the "feeder" schools to that univ. Find out exactly what classes are needed and will transfer, as well as the GPA needed from CC. Taking the right program at the feeder school is essential.</p>

<p>In my area our local UC has a deal with a local CC and if you get a 3.0 average for 2 years, you are an auto admit into the UC. Very nice method for many kids.</p>

<p>Maybe this sort of thing exists where you are too?</p>

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<p>I know someone who got feedback on son's application to a top school. The best things on the app was the kid"s SAT1 score (he was nearly perfect) and his summer working at a convenience store which he parlayed into an essay. The father was floored as they had sunk a fortune in all sorts of experiences that he was sure would catch the adcom's eye. He had considered the job a waste of time, just a good way to make a few bucks and it was close to house with flexible hours, but that was not the way the school looked at it.</p>

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<p>Jamimom--it must have been a good essay!</p>

<p>All sorts of interesting characters come into convenience stores (and Kmarts). I worked one summer after college graduation at a Kmart--I never saw so many tattooed men nor sold so many John Denver albums.</p>

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<p>Maybe. Did not read it. But I think it was more that this was a priviliged kid from a priviliged neighborhood with priviliged parents, at a privilieged private school, with priviliged ECs and experiences, working at a convenience shop. He is a good kid, who worked hard, and was so available that he worked many shifts doing whatever needed to be done and made a nice chunk of change even at a few cents over minimum wage, as he did get a lot of overtime. But he did it all from pumping the gas, to cleaning the restrooms. He did not get into the school, by the way. BUt the adcom discussed the app with the counselor and parent because he is a legacy with an excellent academic profile.</p>

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<p>jamimom and ellemeno- as a Wellesley grad I never forgot the comment of Dean of Admissions, several years ago, that the most memorable essay she ever read was about applicant's experiences working at Dunkin' Donuts-cleverly portraying customers she'd met, etc. It's all about how you say it and how you reveal yourself, not about being able to recount your "impressive" experiences.</p>

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<p>Thanks to all for ideas and guidance. Many of you picked up on something really important. Until very recently, I think our approach has been “Yes! He wants to go to college! Let’s get this show on the road!” I had started to focus, and you all have really deepened my focus, not on how he can “get in” but how to make sure he’s in a place where he can succeed.</p>

<p>His state’s U is not too very competitive (77% accepted; B average is what they want – which he has). Neighboring state U (ours) slightly less competitive. I had already started thinking about the smaller, still less competitive, 4-yr. state colleges (not U’s) and per many of your suggestions looked today at the 2-yr. community college option.</p>

<p>My own S’s GC (who shall be nominated for sainthood for helping so much on my gS’s situation) has told us of a “school-within-a-school” option at gS’ state U . On U campus, same dorms but can end in a 2-yr degree or, with successful performance, transfer into main U track seamlessly. Not automatic, but close. He will definitely put one of these programs down on his app as one of his choices for major. Apparently this school is excellent for the under-prepared. What’s wonderful, since we’re not sure if he is or is not underprepared, is that the single application can be used to apply for both.</p>

<p>Which brings me to – I am sensitive to not encouraging him in a direction that is “beyond” him. But I think I need to also be sensitive to channeling him in a direction that underestimates him. It’s quite possible that he is a capable student who simply hasn’t had exposure/proper guidance/encouragement to head toward college. It’s also possible that he needs a transition before state U, especially for engineering. He really may be suited for the less intense Engineering Techonolgies, but his abilities and preparation are not clear to us as we can’t get much of a feel for the quality of coursework at his hs (in yet a 3rd state; he changed custodial parent during hs years only). </p>

<p>Our current plan: complete combo app due 2/1 to state U/school-within-school. While waiting to hear, spend time with him to try to understand better what he wants/is ready for. The 4-yr state colleges are rolling admissions with 4/1 “suggested” deadlines, so we have time. Meanwhile, SAT results next Friday might help us see how prepared he is (after all, that’s what SAT is supposed to be for, isn’t it. But that’s another thread.)</p>

<p>Achat –katwk is right – gS is my step-grandson.</p>

<p>Katwk – since we live in a 2-story house and there are no 20th floor windows for H to jump out of, I might pass on your thought that gS living with us could be beneficial.</p>

<p>This board rocks! Obviously my gS is cut from wholly different cloth than many/most of the S/Ds we cover on CC. But the support, help, thoughfulness is just as much there.</p>

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<p>Great plan, great advice.
About the only thing I would echo is the potential difficulty of a first-year engineering program. Our main State Eng School has a wickedly difficult first-year weed-out for engineering students. My brother-in-law was a casualty. The preparation suggestions are really good. You might see if the Eng Dept of the school he's interested in has an open house or some other event scheduled. If he's the social sort, he might get an idea of the difficulty himself from schmoozing the eng students he would meet.
Good luck.</p>

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<p>I would accept with an open mind now his current career choice while knowing that most college students change majors several times. Since he's interested in engineering now, I'd suggest showing him info on what kind of prep is needed for engineering careers, and I'd also suggest that he start taking some math and science courses over the summer before starting college.</p>

<p>Math and science skills get very rusty without practice, and taking classes this summer will help him be as prepared as possible for college, even if he ends up changing majors.</p>

<p>What math and science courses did he take in h.s. and how did he do?</p>

<p>While this site was designed for women wishing to enter the engineering field, it still has info that would be helpful to your s gs:<a href="http://www.societyofwomenengineers.org/swefaq/faqstudents.aspx%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.societyofwomenengineers.org/swefaq/faqstudents.aspx&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>vadad and NSMom -
thanks for the suggestions. gS took Alg. I and II, geom, and Discrete Math (I had to google that one). Don't know what his grades were on each. STILL trying to get transcript from hs and gS only remembers a few specific grades. As I said, however, 3.0 average and I think was pretty consistent across courses. </p>

<p>H is an engineer (BSEE and MSEE). BS from same state U as gS applying. H very successful, and was also (different type of ) late bloomer (see my post on Consolidating CC info ). H often "reminisces", if you can call it that, about how very very very difficult Eng. was in college - from the get-go to the very end. He thinks his gS can do it, I guess because he did it. Or,maybe he just wants to think gS can do it. </p>

<p>Excellent idea on "brush-up" rusty math over summer esp. if he goes directly to U instead of school-within or cc. gS has said willing to do summer school for for. lang. if necessary, so quant course also/instead is excellent idea.</p>

<p>I have my suspicions, but they are only suspicions, that Eng. isn't really what gS wants. He did some CAD/CAM coursework in hs and loved it and spoke of architecture for a while. DH, open-minded always (lol), told him that architects make diddly-squat $. Oh well, we will figure this part out in due time - after all we're not talking MIT, CalTech, RPI here. He can move around in different fields before/during and after at state U or any of the other possibles.</p>

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<p><a href="http://www.naab.org/cal_cat1724/cal_cat.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.naab.org/cal_cat1724/cal_cat.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>This is the link to the website of the organization that accredits universities for architecture programs that allow graduates to sit for their professional licenses. My DD (a hs senior also) is wanting to major in architecture and she too LOVED her CAD coursework in highschool. She also had 3 more years of architecture, and has really enjoyed it. And I never thought to tell her that architects make "diddly-squat$". Heck, I didn't even know that. I just figured if that is what she enjoys then go for it! </p>

<p>Just a side note for jmmom, DD applied to Wellesley for their architecture program this year, it is now taught in conjunction with MIT's architecture program. So we will see if that is where she ends up!</p>

<p>The only reason I suggested the MOVE to have GS live with you is that it might be a big jump going from working construction to attending a 4 year university possibly majoring in engineering. Not just academically bot emotionally and socially as well. If his mindset in high school was not directed/focused on attending college, it might be a little hard for him to switch gears.</p>

<p>Also what a wonderful opportunity for your H to spend time with his grandson. He (husband) just can't scare or chase him away by putting unrealistic goals/requirements upon him. That just wouldn't be fair to GS. But it could be really, really FUN!!</p>

<p>Again, good luck. I also have a DS in college as a freshman, DD as a junior in college and another DS is a high school junior, so this college stuff is ALL we do.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I just figured if that is what she enjoys then go for it!

[/quote]
Not, unfortunately, in DH' vocabulary. In fact, I believe that is heresy in his "religion" (lol).</p>

<p>I think gS will fare well socially (and I hope emotionally) as he has many friends at stateU and is spending a lot of time with them there, socially. He went to MS w them before moving away for hs. Think he is hearing their experiences and picturing himself there and realizing he knows these kids and he can do what they are doing. If not for this experience, he might well not have responded to H' "heart-to-heart."</p>