Wesleyan v. Swarthmore

Colleges and Universities A-Z Swarthmore College
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<p>I'm sorry, flying_pig, I didn't know that you were asking about schools other than Swarthmore, especially when I read:</p>

<p>"However, I find myself tempted by the low numbers on "uni go.com" that Swat has for alcohol, in comparison to Wesleyan (actually, just one point lower). Is there a huge amount of difference in the alcohol/drug scene?"</p>

<p>"Is Wes that different from Swat in terms of social scene?"</p>

<p>and "I have had good friends and relatives at Swarthmore who, although they were truly brilliant people, found the academic climate too intense and stressful and dropped out. I don't want to be miserable in college," a statement that begged to be talked about.</p>

<p>And since we don't go to Wesleyan, you surely could not have expected us to be experts on Wesleyan's social scene.</p>

<p>By the way, four people is not "many, many contacts."</p>

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<p>The thread is <em>called</em> Wesleyan vs. Swarthmore! I was just continuing a comparison between these two schools, but with specific points (such as the drug scene) that I was particularly interested in. I did give background information saying why I wasn't considering Swarthmore (because I wanted to avoid a lot of replies saying that I should apply there), but I definitely wouldn't have if I had known that it was going to prompt people to discuss only that point. I posted that information precisely to avoid discussing that point!</p>

<p>This is a thread discussing Wesleyan and Swarthmore, comparing the two. The creator of the thread had no problems posing that question, and many people have answered it. Why do you now say "And since we don't go to Wesleyan, you surely could not have expected us to be experts on Wesleyan's social scene"?</p>

<p>I do know more than those four contacts, but I thought those would be good examples because I talk to those people or hear about them many times each week. </p>

<p>I really didn't mean to start anything nasty, I just wanted answers to my question. I do not want to apply to Swarthmore and I don't want to be tempted to apply there because I do not think it would be good for me. I have more that sufficient information on which to base this claim (and even if you don't think I do, I wasn't asking for peoples' opinions on this, sorry).</p>

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<p>As much as I enjoy these arguments on the Swarthmore CC forum -- particularly when you guys are busy skewering my fellow geezer, Interesteddad :) -- I feel I should intervene. </p>

<p>No, I don't go to Swarthmore, but, I've read enough of these posts to have some idea of what you are all talking about. </p>

<p>It's an aspect of the "big fish, small pond" syndrome. Swarthmore has a a small number of people trying to do a lot of things. The task has only gotten bigger as Swarthmore grows even more diverse. This is a good thing. Swarthmore should be diverse. And, it has every right to be as small as it wants to be.</p>

<p>I would only point out that at Wesleyan (and flying_pig319 is correct, Wesleyan's name shares the subject line) there are more people to support some of the same things, so there are fewer feelings of <em>obligation</em> that people have to go to this rally or to that recital in order to make it, not fail. </p>

<p>No one is going to blame you for not going on the Midnight Bike Ride through Middletown. Or, the latest dance party at Eclectic. Or, the soccer match against Trinity. Plenty of people will show up without you. The biggest problem at Wesleyan -- and, it's a serious one -- is communication; people often don't hear about things until after they are over.</p>

<p>You can judge a lot about a community by the way they support each other. Swarthmore does it one way. Wesleyan does it another. Now, continue your fighting. :D</p>

1 Like
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<p>That is an interesting explanation/viewpoint that I had not heard before-- thanks!! Do you think that, while Swarthmore may be more diverse/"big fish in a small pond" in its interests, which (if I understand you correctly) puts more pressure on students to attend certain activities, students are by and large pretty similar in terms of what social activities they enjoy doing and their general outlooks on life?</p>

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<p>If you'll notice, this is a popular subject on the CC boards: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/583697-uchicago-v-reed.html?highlight=reed#post1061186508%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/583697-uchicago-v-reed.html?highlight=reed#post1061186508&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Danas in post #4 of the uchicago -v-reed thread points out, that Reed and Wesleyan -- and, I would add Swarthmore, Oberlin, Vassar, Brown, Carleton, Macalester and several others -- all have similar mixes of people: idealistic, slightly left-of-center, teacher-friendly. But, something about the immediate environment causes one to go one way in terms of intensity, and the others in another. It's probably no coincidence that Brown is both the biggest school and the least intense in terms of reputation. It turns out that at 1400 students each, Reed and Swarthmore are almost exactly the same size, and among the smallest of the group.</p>

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<p>I guess you have to find a balance between smallness/intensity (if there's a correlation like you suggest) and bigness/relaxedness. It's sad that is has to be that way, kind of.</p>

<p>Wesleyan is a bigger than I'd like, but I really need to enjoy my college years. I'm a painfully anxious person and being around relaxed, happy people will do a lot for me emotionally, I think (and that will translate into helping me academically and basically every other ________ly word out there).</p>

<p>I am glad those schools all share those traits, though. Hearing similarities is reassuring after hearing all the nit-picky nuances of difference that are aggrandized (I'm hoping) into huge, unavoidable, clashing differences.</p>

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<p>I think it is a very shallow analysis (smaller = more intense).</p>

<p>At least based on its reputation, UChicago is just as "intense" as Swarthmore. Harvard, Yale and Princeton are pretty "intense" as well.</p>

<p>There is no "external" pressure on the students to participate in anything at Swarthmore. It is the pressure they put on themselves because they want to do it all, not because they have to or are expected to by anyone else.</p>

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<p>So, all of this talk about "community" s just b.s., is that it?</p>

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<p>Cut it out, johnwesley. First of all, you made me spray the laptop with coffee again, and that's just not good for the circuitry. Second, no fair throwing grenades and leaving the room. I think the fur was flying just fine already. We geezers are supposed to provide a steadying influence, after all.</p>

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<p>Just employing the Socratic method, HMW. My hot cocoa is ready, now.</p>

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<p>What does the "community" have to do with any of this? Yes, there is a very strong sense of community at Swarthmore. There might be more of a sense of community at a smaller school than at a bigger one as a general rule, though I am not sure it is a direct correlation. The "community" does not increase the pressure on any individual students. If anything, it helps to cope with whatever pressure they are under for whatever reasons.</p>

<p>Swarthmore is certainly not the best choice for someone who self-identifies as "painfully anxious person".</p>

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<p>So, where does that leave us? The workload isn't stressful. The community itself imposes few obligations ("everything is free at Swarthmore.") There's just a purely imported sense of intensity that is apparently unique with each matriculant.</p>

<p>I'm not so sure I buy the self-selection argument. On the one hand, it must be comforting to know that Swarthmore itself isn't much of a catalyst in undesirable ways. OTOH, it seems to me that you are all painfully close to making it sound like Sweden. It provides food, clean sheets, and a pleasant environment. The angst is existential?</p>

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<p>I don't think you've had enough cocoa, johnwesley. Or maybe you need your afternoon constitutional. </p>

<p>I'm going out as soon as I find my walker. </p>

<p>Meantime, though, I feel compelled to point out that clean sheets are no longer part of the deal at Swat, fondly though some of us remember them - and the housekeeping service that came with them.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I'm not so sure I buy the self-selection argument.

[/quote]

I am not sure what you mean.
I have 2 kids that recently graduated from colleges - one from Swarthmore, an epitome of "Intense school", and one from Stanford, an epitome of "Laid Back" school. Did they have a very different college experience? Yes. Did one of them have any more work to do than the other one? Sure did not look that way. Were both happy with the respective choices they made? Absolutely. And both got great education, btw.</p>

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<p>I'm glad this argument is now in the capable hands of JohnWesley.</p>

<p>Stanford is a great, elite school! Wow, only in CC forums would it be considered a "slacker" school... I shudder to think of your opinion of Wesleyan's academic environment if you think of Stanford in this light.</p>

<p>I'm not sure what point you're making, nngmm. They both had similar amounts of work, so the intense/slacker stereotypes don't really hold true? Or these stereotypes are correct but they both provide great educations in different ways?
You also say that a community feeling relieves pressure, but that Swat isn't good for someone who feels anxious/pressured?</p>

<p>I don't mean to sound hostile, I'm just sincerely trying to understand the points you are making.</p>

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<p>flying_pig319,</p>

<p>On or about October 1 you posted on the Haverford thread:</p>

<p>"Also, I'm having trouble deciding on a top-choice school (Haverford and Wesleyan are my top choices, I think, but I'm also really liking Oberlin and maybe Vassar. Considering Kenyon, Brandeis, Reed, and Bard as well)."</p>

<p>AND WENT ON TO DESCRIBE YOUR IDEAL SCHOOL</p>

<p>"Looking for a school with an intellectual environment full of people who are excited about what they are learning (but not one that is too cutthroat, or one that is so much work academically that I cannot enjoy my college experience-- ie, not Swarthmore). Would like a school that is full of sweet, genuine, quirky/nerdy, warm, individualistic (to an extent), witty/engaging people. I'm an "out to save the world" idealist so a school filled with those kinds of people would be great (but I'd much prefer people to be legit politically activists, not just "liberal chic" hipsters/hippies). I am involved in the performing arts, so would prefer a school more geared towards this than athletics (although again, please don't interpret my artsiness as hipsterness. oy). I'd also like a very supportive environment in which you can find who you want to be and what you want to do with you life, in addition to just having a good time. Professors having close relationships with students would help with this, I'd imagine. I'd also like a social scene that is not focused on drugs/alcohol/partying, but instead one that is more low-key (movies, events, hanging out). A beautiful, green campus and rich tradition are also turn-ons."</p>

<p>AND EVEN THOUGH YOU SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED SWARTHMORE, you were, in fact, describing Swarthmore when you described your ideal school! (My daughter, like you is in the arts, and is loving Swarthmore.)</p>

<p>Then on October 26 you show up on this thread and pose a question about Wesleyan using words like "tempting" when referring to Swarthmore but lash out at posters who believed that you were interested in Swarthmore. I was puzzled by your attitude so I looked through several of your prior posts and suddenly your seemingly "love hate" attitude toward Swarthmore became abundantly clear. You are terrified of being rejected by Swarthmore, or you are terrified of not doing well at Swarthmore or both. </p>

<p>Why do I say this? Because on another post you said that your dad thought that that you would not get in some of your top schools. You commented that you have good grades, but you are not in the top 10% of your class. It seems that your parents are in academia and all of this is weighing heavily on you. I am in academia and totally understand the environment in which you live and attend school.</p>

<p>You need to chill and instead of lashing out at posters who are trying to help you, you need to take a deep, deep look inside your soul/head and figure out what it is that you want out of life. Just because you know "brilliant people" who left Swarthmore, does not mean that everyone else is miserable at Swarthmore. You cannot assume that what you have heard about any school is an accurate depiction of how you will feel about the school. Moreover, you need to make your own decisions without fear of not living up to anyone else's expectations.</p>

<p>Do not let your dad's comments influence or scare you away from applying anywhere. And, please, do not take this as trying to get you to apply to Swarthmore. I am definitely, not pushing you in that direction. I have posted this because I feel badly at how you replied to two really well meaning students (arador and dchow8) who took time out to help you, when it is you who is sending mixed signals.</p>

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<p>Thanks for your post-- I really appreciate that you care enough to write all that.</p>

<p>Firstly, that post about my parents was written a long time ago and I promise my parents do not put any pressure on me with regard to colleges. They're encouraging me to choose someplace where I'd be happy and could enjoy my college years because they too feel that high school has kind of sucked the life out of me. My dad is very happy with how I've performed in high school and has said things like "I think you should apply anywhere you'd like to go because you have as good a chance at getting in as anyone" (obviously not true, but very sweet). My parents see how much pressure I put on myself and they're detractors from that, they don't add to it.</p>

<p>I do find Swarthmore tempting because it does, as you said, embody everything that I want in a school perfectly with one VERY crucial exception: Swarthmore is well-known for having a huge workload and very competitive environment. This would not be good for me, as I get really stressed about even the smallest things. If you knew me you'd understand. I know that those stereotypes about the workload of schools don't always hold true, but in my experience this one does. I'd just really hate to go to college and be sad/overwhelmed. I feel like I can find interesting people at any of the schools on my list, but the workload/academic atmosphere is unavoidable.</p>

<p>I didn't mean to lash out at anyone, so I'm sorry if I did. It's painful for me to hear about how perfect Swarthmore is for me because I know I wouldn't enjoy myself there. I really wish it wasn't so perfect so that I could convince myself I wouldn't want to go there anyway. I don't know how much more explicit I can be though:
I am really easily overwhelmed and get very emotional when I am stressed. I have intense anxiety and am very indecisive (you can see this-- I've spent waay too much time researching colleges online and posting on various websites like this one... It's obsessive and I'd probably be happier with my college choices if I hadn't explored every detail of them looking for possible downfalls).</p>

<p>The love-hate relationship you described is definitely very real, and I'm aware of it. It's really unfortunate.</p>

<p>I really appreciate your post, truly I do. I know Swarthmore is soo ideal for me (which is why I asked for schools similar to it) but you have to trust me when I tell you I'd get there and break down.</p>

<p>(P.S. This is a pretty moot point anyway because I highly doubt I would get in).</p>

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<p>Okay, there's a lot of new stuff brought up in the past day.</p>

<p>I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what johnwesley is saying. For instance, johnwesley, what do you mean by "all of this talk about 'community'"? I don't see how that relates to what we've been talking about. As far as I'm concerned, Swarthmore does have a sense of community, but let me define what I take that to mean, first. By Swarthmore having a sense of community, I mean that students might think of themselves as being more of a "family," as it were. Examples: lots of people are friends with each other here, we often see each other walking through campus, we meet in one dining hall, Sharples. Student organizations are also quite inclusive of other students. Also, professors meet with the students in small, discussion-based classes and seminars, reinforcing the concept of all the students from many different backgrounds coming together and all living as part of the Swarthmore community, active in pursuing their interests and in learning. That sense of belonging is what I mean by a sense of community.</p>

<p>So, I'm not sure what a sense of community has to do with pressure. It's possible that the sense of community helps alleviate pressure, because you know that 'we're all in this together' and because you have close friends whom you can talk to to help eliminate some unhealthy stress. There are also student academic mentors, academic advisors, and RA's, among other people, whom you can talk to if you have something you want to discuss. But that's not really very related to the sense of community idea I talked about earlier.</p>

<p>I've read somewhere (perhaps on CC) that the small size may lead to a "pressure-cooker" environment--that might be what johnwesley is getting at. I think that being in an academically intense kind of reinforces the fact that you have work to do and that might lead to people feeling more stressed, but I don't really get that feeling--it's more like, I have work to do, more than, OMG I have so much stuff to do, I'm going to die! johnwesley mentioned that "The community itself imposes few obligations ("everything is free at Swarthmore.") " The Swarthmore administration isn't what we mean by a sense of community.</p>

<p>So, that's what I have to say about Swarthmore's sense of community.</p>

<p>I'm not nngmm, but I'm suspecting that the reason he/she says that Swarthmore isn't good for someone who's "painfully anxious" is that you will be pressured here, and we don't wnat someone who's prone to being really pressured about very little things to have a heart attack or something.</p>

<p>I wouldn't say that the workload isn't stressful--it's stressful, but if all you do in college is go to class, eat, and sleep, and work for the remaining time, you should be able to get it pretty much all done. It might not be easy, but it's doable. I think it's fair to say that because students are active in other activities, the workload does get stressful. Don't get me wrong then--it's a lot of work here.</p>

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<p>My point is that Swarthmore and Stanford are not that different (if at all) with regards to the amounts of work, or the quality of education. They have a different "vibe", and provide a very different "college experience". You'd have to work VERY HARD to do well at both. And slackers will not survive at either.</p>

<p>At Swarthmore there will be more intellectual discussions outside of classroom, and general "spill out" of academics into all spheres of daily life. At Stanford there's less whining, more involvement in sports (and I'm not talking about college athletics, but just playing for fun), and generally more "relaxed" atmosphere. That does not mean that there is less work, or that the work is easier at Stanford. But it has a different "feel".</p>

<p>To tell you the truth, I don't know where a "painfully anxious" student will be happy... It's up to you to figure it out.</p>

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<p>flying_pig, you gave some interesting thoughts and I'd like to talk about some of them, in the most accurate way I can.</p>

<p>"I do find Swarthmore tempting because it does, as you said, embody everything that I want in a school perfectly with one VERY crucial exception: Swarthmore is well-known for having a huge workload and very competitive environment."</p>

<p>To be perfectly honest, I think the workload depends on which classes and professors you get. If you pick a bunch of easy classes you won't have that much trouble. Where have you heard, by the way, that the workload at Haverford or Wesleyan or Reed is any easier than that at Swarthmore?</p>

<p>Also, whoever said that Swarthmore's environment is very competitive is just wrong. There are other somewhat recent posts that talked about this, so I won't repeat it. </p>

<p>"This would not be good for me, as I get really stressed about even the smallest things. If you knew me you'd understand. I know that those stereotypes about the workload of schools don't always hold true, but in my experience this one does."</p>

<p>Then I'm wondering why you're thinking of applying to Wesleyan or Haverford or Reed!</p>

<p>"I'd just really hate to go to college and be sad/overwhelmed. I feel like I can find interesting people at any of the schools on my list, but the workload/academic atmosphere is unavoidable."</p>

<p>Yes; welcome to college (not just Swarthmore, but any good college). It seems like you think that Swarthmore gives a lot more work than all the other schools--maybe you should rethink that.</p>

<p>I think it would be good for you to apply to Swarthmore, because it meets so many of your criteria. Applying isn't the same as accepting.</p>