Calliene…yes, Shenandoah, Pace, and Montclair existed when my D applied. Texas State did not. I knew one peer who had applied to Pace in my D’s year. I don’t believe these schools would be on my D’s list today given her criteria. They ARE on the lists of students whom I advise and I recommend them ALL the time. I have had students who attended most of the schools you just named. Also, with regard to Texas State, D preferred to go to college in the Northeast / East Coast. As has been stated many times, there are all sorts of reasons and criteria students use in picking their schools.
@alwaysamom @Soozievt attributed both quotes above to VTeacher, when in fact only the second is attributable to him. She basically said he was talking out of both sides of his mouth, when in fact, she was putting the words of @vocal1046 in his mouth. To be diplomatic, I was trying NOT to single people out, but since you thought I was speaking of people misquoting me, I felt compelled to clarify.
There are so many quotes where members focus on only the portion of the quote they take issue with, ignoring the rest, I just “cannot even” as D says. And yes, many of these are mine. But I am by no means alone.
In my post #175, I DIRECTLY quoted posts #154 and #162. In fact, I used quote boxes which is the most accurate way of quoting someone. I also attributed the posts to the poster, in this case, Voice Teacher. I responded to those posts. Later in my post, I commented on subsequent posts by others in a general way (the discussion that had ensued since Voice Teacher had posted) and moved away from VoiceTeacher’s quotes/posts and stated so.
However, I now want to apologize that in checking back on post #154, I see that post is by VOCAL1046 and NOT by VoiceTeacher! Oh, I am sorry. The name was so similar! So, please, VoiceTeacher, accept my apology for attributing post 154 to you when it was by someone else. I cannot go back and change my post now. It would be have been easier if you, tramsmom, just pointed out my inadvertent mistake that post 154 was written by Vocal and not VoiceTeacher. Post 162, which I also quoted, is by VoiceTeacher. Again, sorry for any confusion.
In any case, while VoiceTeacher did not contradict himself, these points are contradicted in the discussion itself here. I still think it is a poor question to ask applicants.
@soozievt, VoiceTeacher did NOT say what you have attributed to him! Please check more closely and make some corrections. He has been, and is, one of the most helpful and knowledgable posters on CC and does not deserve any misrepresentation. Also SoozieVT, you are one that constantly says that students should apply to a wide range of schools, but then you say that Shenandoah may not be on the same list as kids applying to Michigan and NYU, and that your daughter and her friends (at NYU, CCM, CMU, BoCo, etc.) did not include Shenandoah. Does that mean your own child and her friends did not follow your advice?
I was fortunate enough to have attended Shenandoah’s auditions in person this weekend and must say that their presentations were about the most honest, relaxed and helpful I have ever been to. I left thinking that they truly wanted the list of schools just to help understand who is attracted to their school so that they can market the school and see what kids are looking for that they might be lacking/excelling at. It seemed as though the info was just to help make them a better program and to help the applicants as much as possible. VoiceTeacher was there to meet with parents, separate from our kids, and answered any questions we had. He was amazingly helpful.
@Raam1012 and @myloves, Shenandoah also had a 3 full days of scheduled auditions with kids that had passed prescreens. Not all of their auditions were walk-ins, so these statistics may have come from students that applied to the university and sent in pre-screens months ago.
As you can see, I was posting at the same time you were, Dusing, and now I am seeing your post. As soon as trams mom pointed out my error, I posted a correction and apology. It was an inadvertent error due to similar posting names. Again, I am sorry. I corrected it as soon as it was pointed out to me but can’t edit the original post.
I agree that VoiceTeacher is a helpful and knowledgable contributor to this forum.
Yes, I do think students should apply to a range of schools, as well as schools appropriate to their qualifications and selection criteria. One kid’s list should not match another! Again, I have had MANY students apply to Shenandoah and similar schools, which I recommend all the time, but depending on a very individualized college list building process. My D did not include Shenandoah as it didn’t appeal to her, nor its location. Just because she and her friends did not apply to Shenandoah, it doesn’t mean they didn’t have a balanced list of schools. Further, applicants should apply to schools that meet their personal selection criteria. Lastly, the applicant pools at certain schools differ from the applicant pools at other schools. They overlap some of course.
No one can apply to every school - doesn’t take away from any program. There are schools that have become more/less heavily discussed on this forum over time- again, doesn’t change their quality. I can see why schools want to know about the competition (I sure would if I were them), and I can see why kids don’t want to say. I can’t imagine that it is the defining element of the audition process.
Well I know nothing about Shenandoah, but Montclair’s and Pace’s programs were in their infant stages then, both barely started (in fact hadn’t started) and I know that when Clay James came there 8-9 years ago it was completely nothing. He said they had hardly any applicants that first year; now they have 700-800 a year. So things change. Soozie, your daughter may not be interested even today because sounds like she wanted a school that was harder to get into academically. And yes, NYU was and is more academically impressive than all those schools.
@VoiceTeacher - I hope you know that my post, #160, was not intended to be critical of you or Shenandoah. I only wanted to find out why schools ask applicants to what other schools have they applied. I also wanted to let you know how that question is perceived by students because I think sometime administrators don’t understand just how seriously many kids take these questions and their responses. They truly feel like their admission depends on giving the right answer. I do not think you all did anything wrong at all. It is a question asked often by many schools. And I appreciate schools wanting the information. But if the answers received are not used in the application process, I still think it is a question best asked once offers have been made. And just wanted you to be aware that what may seem a harmless question to your school and other schools is highly stressful for many kids. Just trying to give perspective from the other side.
Like others, I do feel you have such tremendously valuable information you share with CC readers, I just want you to know it is much appreciated. I was not familiar with Shenandoah when our D applied to schools 2 years ago, but based on your comments here, I have suggested it to many others who are just going through the process. And I have shared with D some of your posts on vocal health and other subjects that are so well written. Thank you for continuing to share with everyone here. And best wishes for a successful audition season! I know it is as hard on you all as it is on the students.
My apologies - did not realize SU had prescheduled unified auditions. I thought that voiceteacher said something about being added to unifieds with other schools for a group audition. Which could be the case in addition to the scheduled auditions.
I can’t speak for the others about the prescreen/open call question. What I can say for SU is that an opportunity presented itself in December to be part of a group open call and we took advantage of it. It is our first time in many years doing NYC auditions, so we are doing our best to see as many people as possible. However, that is the reality of the business in general. Submitting for an audition can get you a guaranteed spot whereas you may not be able to be seen at all in an open call.
This is what voice teacher said in forum walk-in auditions at NYC unifieds.
Agree that some of these programs were in their infant stages when my D applied to college. And these newer programs have grown by leaps and bounds. And hey, my D has been on the faculty of Pace’s BFA in MT program and loved it. Again, I recommend all of these schools to particular advisees, depending on fit. Building a college list is a highly individualized process. I don’t think each student should have the same list as another student. I feel that my D’s college list was appropriate to her and her results bear that out. Shenandoah would not be a good fit for my D’s selection criteria. Actually, she did apply to BOCO and got accepted, but I don’t think that school really fit her selection criteria and she made an exception to apply there. My D’s favorite school was NYU/Tisch (where she landed) and her second favorite was UMichigan. I can see why some Shenandoah applicants may not apply to these two schools. My D liked how both schools had more rigorous academics. I had a client who recently graduated college and she only applied to two BFA programs…NYU/Tisch (where she attended) and UMichigan, and then applied to other schools and got into Brown and Stanford. I have had clients, such as a current applicant, who I shied away from applying to NYU/Tisch, even though he has quite respectable SAT scores, but doesn’t have the grades and he doesn’t really like doing academic coursework (though is very bright) and so I don’t see NYU as a truly good fit and recommended Pace instead. Building a list needs to be about the right fit for each applicant.
Wow, this stirred up some controversy! That was not my intent. The original post was asking about programs that are less difficult to get into. I don’t know the answer to that. My assumption was that the 10 most commonly listed schools are probably not the easiest to get into, so I just threw that out there as random info. Yeah, the list changed as Sunday went on, but all of those schools listed were still in the upper 15-20. Yes, there were numerous students who listed NYU, Michigan, Emerson, Hart, Montclair, University of Northern Colorado, James Madison, Cap 21, Juilliard, and a ton of other schools - 53 in all. My list was not meant to imply anything at all about quality of the program or program rank. It is just random information, which this forum usually seems to like, so I thought I’d share it. In the future I won’t share info like this because it clearly hasn’t produced a positive outcome. Rather, it has stirred up all kinds of debate, much of which doesn’t make anything easier or less stressful for anyone.
This process is INSANE. You know it and we on the other side of the table know it too. Why is it so crazy? Because there are probably around 2,000+ students auditioning for something like 80 musical theatre programs. Every single college has someone in admissions telling them that they need to bring in X number of students. And every student has some idea of where they really want to go, where they would be ok going, and most importantly what they are willing to spend. You then put a universal deadline of May 15th out there and chaos ensues. Schools need to hit their numbers without overcrowding, students need to choose a school they can live with and afford by the deadline, with the potential of missing out on a later offer from their dream school. All businesses use data of some sort to inform their decision making. I am sure each school uses the data differently. Sorry this has caused such heated discussion - that was not by any means my intent.
~VT
@soozievt Mistakes happen, no problem. Thanks for the correction.
@soozievt, just curious, why did your daughter choose NYU over Michigan?
80 Musical Theatre Programs, 2000 students. I submit that the odds are more in the student’s favor than we realize! Thank you for posting the number of “the MT universe”. I think it is comforting to know that there is indeed a place for everyone. It might not be their first or second choice, but there is one out there.
Well that would assume each program takes 25 kids. I guess perhaps on average they might. Still not good odds
I think @transmom just got to where we always get with this. The odds of getting into “a program” are considerably higher than the odds of getting into any one specific program.
@tramsmom I don’t think that anyone has judged your right to question NYU’s reputation or whether it is overpriced. Personally, what I was questioning is your logic (and lack of facts) in drawing conclusions about its popularity. As an NYU parent, I just got an email today from the president of NYU saying that applications for ED and RD are at an all time high. They are up 15% from last year…which was also a record year. The email states that NYU had more ED applicants than any other school in the US.
Now there was no breakdown given of specific schools or programs. And certainly not a detailed breakdown of Tisch acting vs. MT applicants. But I see absolutely no reason to believe that applications are down just because some newer MT programs exist. I agree that there has been a proliferation of MT programs because overall there are more MT applicants out there. But the spike in MT’s popularity would lead me to believe that well established programs like NYU, CMU, Michigan and Northwestern are also seeing a spike in numbers. Why would it be otherwise?
And I do agree that students create their college lists in very different ways, for different reasons. My D applied to NYU Steinhardt as her only MT program. Her major criteria for schools began with high academics and talented faculty and students. She also wanted to be no more than 5 hours away from NYC, preferably in a city location, and she was seeking an overall good fit. So her final list was NYU, Barnard, Brandeis, Muhlenberg, GW, American and Binghamton (financial and academic safety that we insisted on.) Considered, but not applied to were Vassar, Syracuse, Tufts, Skidmore and Brown. I’m sure that list is not typical for many MT applicants, but several of D’s friends from NYU and home (who were also interested in VP or MT) had many of those schools on their lists.
@transmom Those auditionee numbers are very rough estimates, they’re numbers I’ve heard thrown around by several others, but they’re not concrete by any means. The 80 programs is pretty close, as others have said there have been a lot of new programs emerging in the past few years.
There is a finite MT universe. There is a gross number of MT applicants and spots for applicants. Some on here like to focus on the difficulty of getting in, I like to focus on the fact that there are indeed PLENTY of spots for well-prepared students. Simple as that.