what are the less difficult musical theater programs to get into

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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It is also probably true that a large percentage of kids auditioning in NYC have a geographic preference for the East Coast, CCM being the only true outlier geographically on your list.

@transmom, I too am curious as to why schools ask students what other schools they are applying to. From an auditioner’s perspective, it is a very awkward and nerve wracking question to answer. And no amount of reassurances from the schools can convince kids this information will not be used against them in the decision making process. Students worry about telling what other schools they are auditioning for for many reasons. They worry about what order they list the schools, they worry about auditors conferring with other schools as to whether or not they will extend an offer and if that will impact whether they get an acceptance, they worry that the school they are in front of will make assumptions about which school is their favorite and change their offer to them based on their list of schools, they worry about listing too many or not enough, etc… None of these things may in fact be true. But in the mind of the student auditioning, it is very disconcerting and extremely uncomfortable. I think most would love to say “it’s none of your business”, when asked that question. But I’m sure they don’t because they want to put their best foot forward with you. But the question often causes a lot of worry and angst on how to answer it. I do believe that many only tell a few of the schools for which they are auditioning and do not give their complete list of schools to which they are applying. I have even seen discussions on Facebook trying to analyze what answers schools are looking for - do you put only top schools so they think that is your level of talent? Do you only put a couple so they think they do not have much competition in trying to get you to their school? Do you tell them everything or nothing? Kids really agonize over this question!

I do completely get from the schools’ perspective, wanting information that will be helpful to you in recruiting students to your program. And I know that understanding what schools prospective students are looking at in addition to yours would be really helpful. But I would think this question would best be asked, if possible, after students are accepted rather than during the audition season so there is no fear their answer could be used for or against them in the decision making process. I think you would be more apt to get more complete disclosure at that time also.

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Hmmm. I vote for transparency. They ask, you answer. We ask them how many students they are auditioning, right? Why is that any different then them asking your S or D which schools he or she is auditioning for? Maybe they have a board like CC and they are comparing notes even as we speak – and they are trying to figure out how they are going to get that perfect blonde ingénue from Tennessee or the wonderful tenor from New York. And, they are saying – don’t tell them how many students really apply, pass the prescreen etc. – inflate those numbers so we look more popular.

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I think some of you are reading too much into why we ask. We’ve never once used that info to make a final decision about a student. Speaking for our process, I can say that it is nice for us to be able to tell our university financial aid and admissions departments who we are competing with when we are asking for additional support, etc. Some of it is just curiosity - let’s face it we all like to have some sense of who our competitors are.

VT

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@VoiceTeacher that is fair. We are all curious about this mysterious process, and I appreciate that once offers have been made, it can be as nerve wracking for the school waiting on acceptances as it is for the student. Not knowing for sure when to make more offers, etc. But as @vvnstar correctly points out, it does create stress for the prospective student. I doubt you get an accurate picture at any rate. I do appreciate if you “use” the info to get more $ for your students! If that actually works. It would be nice however, for schools to ask this question as “optional”.

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^optional or anonymous…

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I don’t think a school that is there for walk-ins can fairly see who your competition is based on the question “what other schools are you auditioning for”. Many kids will audition for the school just because the school is there, there is an open spot, they have the time - why not? If they didn’t already submit their prescreen to audition at your school I would think you were not among the schools on the original list - therefore not truly a competing school for that student, or at least not an original one.

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I’ve never understood why this is such a big deal. Why not be straightforward? All of my son’s schools did ask this question, by the way, either on a written form to be handed in at the audition or during the interview. One school–Ithaca–did ask him to rank his top 5 (in writing); after a little hesitation, he just did it as he saw it, listing that school as #3. He was admitted. From what I remember him telling me of those conversations, most of the auditors seemed interested in why he chose the schools he did, and it was just another talking point in the interview. I can totally see why schools would want to know.

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@transmom I’d imagine that both Michigan and NYU are not mentioned when a school at NYC Unifieds asks where else a student is auditioning has mostly to to do with the fact that neither school is at Unifieds. To me, “where are you auditioning?” implies here, today. Are you trying to say that students are not applying to either school in high numbers? That suddenly people discovered that NYU and Michigan are expensive and selective and have revolted by not auditioning?

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I think NYU does audition at NYC Unifieds or during NYC unifieds. Pretty sure. And I don’t think Shenandoah meant to limit the question to just the Unified schools. Voice Teacher even came on here and said he wanted to know what the competition was - not “the competition at NYC Unifieds”. I assume schools outside NYC Unifieds are included in the question to which schools are they applying? He did not ask, to which schools are you “auditioning at NYC unifieds.” It is what it is.

I would expect to find NYU on the list, given the huge numbers they apparently audition, and it wasnt. That was my observation. And yes, I do think many choose not to audition for NYU because of the cost. And as more and more MT schools compete, I think they may in fact price themselves out of the middle class market . A whole lotta kids simply can’t afford that school.

So the fact it wasnt on the list I think says something. That is my opinion. I did not mean to offend anyone by it. It is an observation. I don’t know why everytime I mention that NYU is expensive, someone gets offended. It is expensive. It is among THE most expensive programs out there, esp for middle class families who don’t qualify for need based aid. That has got to have some sort of effect on both the numbers and the socioeconomics of the kids who audition there.

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I don’t find it offensive at all when someone says that NYU is expensive. It IS expensive! I just don’t think that they are pricing themselves out of any market because of their cost. They have always been an expensive school and certainly there are plenty of people that feel that it is out of their price range, or not worth the cost. But that is not new news. I just don’t buy the theory that NYU is no longer attracting students to apply and to attend. You even imply it here in your response when you say huge numbers “apparently” apply to NYU. There are no facts that support your theory. Record numbers of students keep applying and accepting NYU’s offer to attend.

I am certainly not here to question Voice Teacher’s verbiage when he asked about other schools. I’m just saying that one reason NYU might not have been a response for some, is that they did not think to include schools that were not at NYC Unifieds.

I also don’t think we can use this anecdotal survey to draw any major conclusions about any school’s future.

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NYU is somewhat unique in that their MT applicant numbers are included together with their Acting Numbers. (This is also true of CMU). I don’t think I have ever seen statistics on how many at NYU audition FOR MUSICAL THEATRE. Those numbers seem to always include both the actor only candidates AND the MT candidates. Given that they have 60 slots for MT, (really they have twice that when Steinhart is included), and given that they are one of THE most expensive MT schools, I really wonder what their admit rates are. They may be closer to BOCOs than to CMU.

I should not be bullied for asking this question. I don’t necessarily agree that kids apply to NYU FOR MT in “increasingly record numbers.” It makes sense to me they may not be. While NYU has been expensive for some time, the proliferation of MT programs in the last 3-5 years IS new. Dozens of new programs have come into being. The economy is not what it was in the first decade of the 2000s. Student aid and loans are tighter. Money is tighter. And it is a valid question to ask what effect this is having on the pricier MT programs, like NYU. Please do not take this as a personal attack on the school. I have stated here many times that I think it is a fabulous program. Those that attend are no doubt talented. I just think it might be an easier admit than folks are sometimes lead to believe. NOT “easy” just not as difficult as some of the other top schools.

It seems one cannot dare to question the conventional wisdom that NYU continues to receive “record numbers” of MT applicants. It may be true. But it could easily NOT be true. Apparently there is no real way to confirm one way or the other because the numbers don’t appear to be disclosed.

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VT said:

“Taking that into consideration, here are the top 10 from most to least that were listed on our info sheets.”

So, he listed the top 10, not all. Michigan and NYU could have been and probably were on some students’ lists, but not enough for top 10. (In fact, I know for fact of one student listed NYU even though it’s a reach financially for that student. Michigan was not on that student’s list, and it was not because he/she didn’t want to travel to Michigan to audition, nor was it because that student is not “of the caliber” to apply there.) Also, I assume that, since VT’s post was made Sunday morning, it included only the relatively small group of people who were called back and auditioned Saturday.

To be honest, I’m not sure why this discussion is helpful (not that it’s not–my sleepy brain just might be missing something), but I think I’d be remiss not to throw this out there…

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Wonder what top 10 lists would look like at Chicago, Texas, LA unifieds?

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Not sure what difference it makes if Tisch is similar to BoCo or to CMU in their admission chances. Either way, the odds are against the student auditioning. Small differences in percentages are, in the big picture, insignificant for any particular student. Let’s face it, there are many different factors that enter into a student’s decision as to where to apply/audition. Money is clearly going to be one factor for many applicants, but strangely enough, that doesn’t always deter someone from applying to a very expensive school.

I haven’t seen any recent numbers as to how many apply specifically, and only, for MT at Tisch but my guess would be that the numbers haven’t changed much, in proportion to the total number auditioning. Why would they? There’s no reason that students interested in MT would be any less likely to apply than those interested in one of the other studios. As far back as 2002 when my D applied, Tisch was auditioning between 2000 and 2500 kids every year. Somewhere between 1000 and 1500 of those kids were interested in MT. The numbers varied a bit year to year and the process was a bit different then because all students were also able to indicate what studio they preferred and about 1/3 of the class was filled during the Early Decision process. I don’t know if that is a similar situation now.

As has been said, NYU has always been an expensive school, and Tisch is, or at least used to be the most expensive school within NYU. The school that was more expensive back then was CMU. I don’t know how the two compare today. I think that it’s wise that some families choose not to apply due to the cost. I think that more should do the same, and not just re: Tisch but with other programs that are expensive. Kids entering this field with lots of debt are starting off with a very large albatross around their necks.

I imagine the numbers who auditioned will come out, in some fashion, at some point once the process is over.

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Everyone sees things differently. I was having a chat with my husband as we drove home from taking the kid back to NYU over the weekend. He asked what was new in the CC world- and I was giving the highlights of some current threads- and mentioned chatter about NYU/Cost/Negativity etc. He brought up the fact that almost every school D had applied to was somewhere between $40-50K in “sticker price” tuition. Within the “finalists” (meaning schools where she had been accepted, and was deciding between - NYU/Syracuse/Boston/Northwestern) the differential between the top and the bottom (and this is after all financial aide info was in) was $15k (from full sticker to some merit/talent- she got no need based aide) His comment was- it’s the 1st $40-50k that hurts- after that what’s another “…” My point is- LOTS of schools are expensive. One of my all time favorite CC reads was “the odyssey - our year long process…” thread. That kid ends up at Ithaca- and I specifically remember the parent talking about paying the fact that they would pay over $200k for their kid’s education. I don’t think I have ever heard anyone say that people aren’t applying to Ithaca b/c it’s too expensive- or to CMU for that matter, which (in published tuition rates) is only a couple thousand less than NYU. An earlier post suggested NYU is pricing itself out of the market- I can see that point- but aren’t those other schools doing it as well?

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This topic has come up on this forum in the past, and I have commented as well, but since there is a new slew of parents/students here, and the topic has arisen again, I am commenting again.

First, I will state that I think this is a TERRIBLE and INAPPROPRIATE question to ask applicants. Yes, it happened at a few schools for my MT kid. It happened at ZERO schools for my non-MT kid. For my non-MT kid, a few schools had this on a form that one sent in AFTER decisions came out and if the applicant was turning down an offer of admission. The school was asking where else the student applied at that point. And so, yes, I can see why this information is of interest to admissions and enrollment officers. But this is the time to ask, and not when the student is applying or auditioning!!! It is not any of their business in my opinion at that juncture.

VoiceTeacher, in all due respect, on the one hand you post that an applicant who appears to not fully answer the question and reveal ALL of their schools is revealing something about their character. Then, you go onto say in another post, that you do not use this information to make a decision about the student. Well, it sounds like your view of the student is influenced by their responses. And you can’t erase information the student has told you from your mind. It is impossible. Why should you get to weigh whether you think this student is serious about your school depending on where else they applied (ie., if they say they applied to CMU, you might assume your school is lower on their list). The fact is, every student SHOULD apply to a range of schools in terms of artistic and academic selectivity. Even if they applied to the likes of CMU and UMichigan, they might not get in. It doesn’t make them less interested in your school. In any case, I am an alumni interviewer for a very selective university, my alma mater. We are told NOT to ever ask where else a student has applied! Rather what is of interest and pertinent is why has this student chosen OUR school. What criteria is the student using in selecting colleges? That is another pertinent question I ask. In my opinion, that is what you should be asking, and not where else the student has applied.

For the record, at the few MT schools that did ask where else my MT kid applied, she responded with a shortened list of her full list of schools…and answered with schools that were on par or possible a bit less selective than the school she was at. At one quite selective BFA in MT program, the auditors then asked, “Why are YOU not applying to NYU?” She had not listed NYU on the list of where she had applied, even though she had applied there. So, she went on to explain why she wanted their school and contrasted it with things about NYU. She was accepted.

Also, VoiceTeacher comments that NYU and UMichigan were not one of the top 10 schools listed in the responses he received on this question at NYC Unifieds. I mean no disrespect to the very fine program at Shenandoah (I had a former advisee go to this program, though she eventually transferred out)…but I will say that my D and none of her friends who applied to BFA in MT programs (and landed at UMichigan, NYU/Tisch, Syracuse, Ithaca, Emerson, BOCO, CCM, CMU) applied to Shenandoah. Shenandoah may not be on the same list of some students who are applying to UMich and NYU, costs aside. It may not appeal to the same sort of applicant in many cases.

Moving away from VoiceTeacher’s posts and to comment on some others…NYU was always a more expensive school. It costs more now than 10 years ago but was always one of the most expensive schools. They have a huge number of applicants and continue to. In terms of not knowing how many are applying for just MT and not Acting, that information was stated on this very forum several years back by an administrator at Tisch (and alwaysamom mentions those figures in her post above). The acceptance rate for MT (not Acting) is still in the single digits at Tisch. I also agree with alwaysamom that there is a negligible difference in odds between schools that accept 4% or accept 9%…those odds are very tough either way.

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Re asking candidates for their list of schools…my non-MT D was asked for her list by Barnard College. She truthfully told the interviewer that she had applied only to two other schools, NYU and Macaulay Honors College at Hunter College. She said the interviewer made a face and gave her a rush job after that. Barnard waitlisted then rejected her. She just graduated from NYU/ Gallatin.

Speaking of NYU/Gallatin…don’t overlook them as a great program for acting and even MT. The unique ability to craft your own major there makes it possible, and they have a fine theater curriculum of their own, albeit without the Tisch studio system. I know an extremely talented boy from our high school who was rejected at Tisch and accepted at Gallatin. He isn’t missing out on anything, loves the freedom and the creativity that Gallatin fosters, and I know he’ll make it big.

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I do hope that folks take care to read exactly what was said and who said it. There is some misquoting going on, not just on this thread but others. There is also a fair amount of reading half of a post, and ignoring all of the information contained in the posts. Doing this misrepresents the spirit of the post and often ignores the very point the member was attempting to make. ~O)

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tramsmom, if you’re being misquoted or misrepresented, it’s probably best to address that specifically, rather than in general advice to all. :slight_smile:

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Soozie, was Shenandoah even a thing when your daughter was applying? I’m sure her friends didn’t apply to Pace or Montclair (or Texas State, among others…), but they might now. Point is that as more programs grow and new ones pop up, and as more info is available to applicants, there will be a shift. I’m not sure why NYU wasn’t on VT’s list because yes, NYU does audition at the same time as NYC Unifieds. But it is clear from all our responses that kids lie when they answer this question, so analyzing the info is probably fruitless. And I agree that it is a terrible and inappropriate question to ask applicants.