What are the schools that don't do a cut?

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>allyson:</p>

<p>I think you're mixing two very different concepts: cuts and evaluations. You seem to be looking for schools which don't do annual evaluations of students which might lead to their dismissal from the program. There may be some, but I am quite sure that most if not all of the schools which you included in the "no cuts" list do, in fact, evaluate students and do, in fact, reserve the right to dismiss them. To do anything else would be irresponsible. There have to be consequences for poor work and bad behavior. </p>

<p>The more important question is, what are the criteria and how do the faculty make those decisions? If the criteria are rational, clearly communicated, and applied fairly, that's one thing. If the criteria are irrational, not clearly communicated, and carried out capriciously, that's another thing altogether. The golden rule in all evaluation systems, whether evaluating a faculty member for tenure or a BFA student for continuation in a program, is that there should be no surprises. If someone really didn't see it coming, and the administration cannot demonstrate a history of communicating with the person both orally and in writing about his or her deficiencies, then chances are good that the decision will be overturned on appeal to a campus review board or to a court of law.</p>

<p>To avoid that truly terrible situation for everyone involved, we, like most other BFA programs of which I'm aware, use several evaluation tools. Our faculty meets individually with all of our students once each year to discuss their progress, their strengths and their weaknesses, and their plans for improving. (Some schools do this every term.) This is the developmental or "formative" piece. But we also do a "summative" piece, and for that we use grades. Here's our policy, as published in the college catalog (a legal contract by the way):</p>

<p>"All B.F.A. students are expected to maintain a 3.0 grade point average each term in their required major classes, with no grade lower than a C. This applies to all major classes, regardless of credit hours earned for the course. Students falling below that standard will be placed on departmental probation; probation will be removed if the student achieves a 3.0 grade point average in the following term with no grade lower than a C. Students are allowed a maximum of two terms of probation during their academic career. Students not achieving a 3.0 average at the end of their second term on probation or students who receive a grade lower than a C in one or more of their required major classes at the end of their second term on probation will not be eligible to continue in the B.F.A. degree program."</p>

<p>To clarify in simpler language: students don't have to get a B in every class, but they do have to achieve a B average every term, and at least a C in every major class. If they don't, they are put on probation. They receive a warning letter from the department, and their advisors meet with them privately to discuss the situation. Are there medical or psychological issues affecting sleep and attendance in class? We'll get them to a doctor or a psychologist, or both. Are they having trouble learning the material? We'll arrange tutoring. Are they spending too much time at the frat house? We'll talk to the frat's faculty advisor. We'll do whatever it takes to provide help to the student with his or her issues. But finally, it's up to them, and if they don't correct the situation, and they fall below the standards two more times, they are out of the BFA. They can stay in school, switch to the BA degree, and still graduate. But they won't be allowed access to the remaining BFA classes.</p>

<p>If you think this is harsh, then you should think twice before entering a BFA program. Almost all BFA programs have standards which resemble this. Most BA programs do not. They don't do annual evaluations, they use only the college's grading standards (which tend to be very lenient), they don't put students on probation, and they don't dismiss them from the program. For reasons why I think BFA programs need evaluation systems with high standards, click here: <a href="http://www.geocities.com/musicaltheatercolleges/cutpolicy.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.geocities.com/musicaltheatercolleges/cutpolicy.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>So I don't object to reserving the right to dismiss students, when all else fails. What I disagree with is systems where there are, to begin with, more students allowed to start a program than the department is prepared to allow to finish. If a school accepts 50, knowing that it will only allow 25 to continue past a certain point (typically the sophomore year), it has to engage in a "cut" system, and I don't think there's any way to administer such systems fairly. Why? Because statistically, there can be virtually no difference between number 25, who is allowed to continue, and number 26, who is not. Weaknesses can be found in number 26 and strengths in number 25, enough so that the faculty can justify its decisions to itself. But it's hard for them to live with those decisions, and it's even harder on number 26, and 27 and 28 and 29 and 30. I freely admit to being a bleeding heart liberal, which means that I can't justify creating that much blood on the floor. Others, citing the competitive nature of the business, disagree. They have every right to do so, as long as they are clear about their methods. For some students, the Project Runway approach works, because the guarantee that someone (or many someones) will be cut goads them to work harder. It just doesn't work for us.</p>

<p>I'll only make one other point here. Our business is about as far from being competitive as any human endeavor. Yes, it is incredibly hard to get into these programs. Yes, it is even harder to get a job. The unemployment rate for actors in America is absurd. But once you get a job as an actor, you're not competing with anybody. Your role, your character, is unique. There aren't five Hamlets in Hamlet, there's one--and one Gertrude, and one Polonius, and one Ophelia and one Laertes--and even if there are 10 spear-carriers, they too have unique roles. What's more, even productions aren't competitive with each other. There's isn't an actor worth his salt who wants to see another production fail. What good does that do any of us? In my view, theatre artists are members of one business--the better the show down the street does, the better we all do, and the more work there is for everyone. </p>

<p>In fact, all of the required skills in theatre are cooperative, not competitive. As for getting a job in the first place, the better you are at demonstrating cooperative skills, the more "competitive" you will be. It's all about directors and choreographers and conductors wanting to work with you. For a real world dose of what this means, I recommend a book by Tom Markus, An Actor Behaves: From Audition to Performance. </p>

<p>I apologize for the length of this post, but I hope it helps to clarify the issues here. </p>

<p>Best wishes to all.</p>

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<p>It took your incredibly thoughtful and succinct response to the topic of cuts vs. evaluations to make me finally post on this board after a very long time away. Thank you, thank you for sharing that information with such clarity and reason. You describe exactly what the elements should be in a rigorous, challenging, as well as nurturing training program for young performers. It certainly does come down to each person making an informed choice of their own regarding where they will spend four critical years of their life. My wish is that all educational theatre communities could have as the basic foundation and philosophy just what you described. </p>

<p>Thank you Doctor John for being such an articulate and caring voice on this board.</p>

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<p>Thanks DoctorJohn for clearing that up for me. I definitely agree with what you are saying. I really respect Otterbein by the way they do the evaluations/etc. I'm glad that there are some schools out there that do do evaluations. I said this before but i'd rather a school take less people in instead of cutting alot of people in the next year or so. There definitely needs to be a wake up call for students sometimes. I always love reading your posts and your opinions. Thanks!</p>

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<p>doctorjohn, thank you for taking time from you busy schedule to communicate with us. I was particularly interested in what you said about the need for actors to be cooperative in order to be competitive. All too often, I hear people (in the real world and on this board!) talk about how backstabbing (metaphorical, of course!) between actors is just "part of the business" and the "real world." I get a lump in my throat each time I hear that, because it not only is ethically repugnant to me, but it also goes against everything I believe and know about what it takes to be truly successful in any field! Just as no one eventually wants to work with a "diva," very few people want to work with someone who is always strategizing and jockeying for position, and who badmouths other people in the field/business. That is why I am so grateful that at my D's PA hs, the emphasis is on the ensemble and how the student actors work together. It truly is a system that works. Thanks again for the post and the book recommendation. I am sure more than a few of our kids will want to read it. It ought to be required!
Lisa</p>

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<p>One useful question you could ask in your information gathering in all this is about the number of students who generally make it through to graduation versus the number who matriculated as freshmen. What I've been told is that a 2:3 graduation rate is about the same as could be expected in any intensive major and should be nothing to raise your eyebrows. Less than that might warrant some further investigation.</p>

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<p>monkey, allyson, Lisa: I'm glad you found the comments useful. It's a difficult subject. I know that my colleagues in the schools which use these systems believe in them, and I can tell that students who have attended these schools also believe in them. There is a bonding which happens in every conservatory, and the anxiety over cuts clearly adds intensity to that bonding. Not unlike a platoon in the army. Classmates do support each other, as ckp has said. And anxiety, as Madeline Hunter, the late, wonderful director of the Lab School at UCLA has written, is an aid to learning--until it reaches the level where students are so frightened that they cannot work. The flip side is that lack of anxiety, while it does create a sense of security which will encourage risk-taking, also can result in a lack of discipline and drive. No system is perfect, and finding the right balance of safety and anxiety is the goal of every good training program.</p>

<p>fishbowl: You got my curiosity up. So I did a quick analysis of our retention rates for the last five years, in all our degree programs. I may publish them over on our thread. But I'll put the MT results here. My suspicion is that our situation is not that different from many others.</p>

<p>Class of 2003: 10 started. 2 switched to other degree programs: 1 after her freshman year to Bachelor of Music Education (although she stayed a Dance Minor), and the other to a BA degree in her senior year, for personal reasons. All 10 graduated. We would call that 100%, even though 2 didn't stay in MT. But they graduated, and on time. We think that's success. Rate = 100%.</p>

<p>Class of 2004: 9 started. 2 left school after the first term; they just weren't comfortable here. 1 other was not meeting with much success either in class or in productions, and transferred after his sophomore year. 6 graduated. Rate = 67%.</p>

<p>Class of 2005: 8 started. 2 were asked to leave after their sophomore year, based on grades. (They were, incidentally, the only 2 students in any of our degree programs asked to leave in the last five years.) 1 left school in the middle of her sophomore year for medical reasons. 5 graduated. Rate = 63%.</p>

<p>Class of 2006: 10 started. 1 transferred after her freshman year into a Music degree program in her home state; finances and family were the primary reasons. 1 transferred after his sophomore year to an Acting program in his home state; finances and a change in career interests were the reasons. (He developed a strong interest in avant-garde theatre and wanted to do more of it.) 2 left school to pursue professional careers, one in Japan and one in NYC. 6 graduated. Rate = 60%.</p>

<p>Class of 2007: 9 started. 1, a transfer from another school, switched to the BA Theatre degree so that he could graduate in 3 years; he graduated last spring. 1 left school in the middle of her sophomore year to pursue Early Childhood Education at another school. We're predicting that the 7 other senior MT's will graduate. Predicted rate = 89%.</p>

<p>Summary: 46 started in MT. 32 graduated in MT and 3 others from OC in different programs, for a total of 35. 6 left school for personal reasons; 3 transferred to other programs; 2 were asked to leave. Five-year graduation rate = 76%.</p>

<p>I can't explain the variation in each year, although I will note that the class of 2005 had been here for one week when the towers came down on September 11, 2001, and that sent shock waves through that class from which they never fully recovered. I'd be interested to know if other schools had the same experience with that class.</p>

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<p>Doctor John,</p>

<p>While I can't respond to how that event impacted an MT major, the scenario you described hit very close to home. My older D ( who was a Tisch student at NYU and was just blocks away when the first plane hit ) eventually made serious school/life changes due to living through that experience while a student. Although certain aspects were certainly intensified because she was right in NYC, it is not difficult to imagine that the ripple effect would impact many young adults on their own and in the midst of educational pursiuts.</p>

<p>Without going into detail, I will say that she chose to complete her sophmore year at NYU, but then tranferred to a different college and completely different field of study. Thinking about all of those years and the various choices made as well as where she is right now, perhaps these decisions would have occurred regardless of that life altering exeperience. I'll never know the answer to that question; however, I do know that her individual experience with such trauma changed her entire view of what she was seeking in life, and the ultimate direction of her life as well.</p>

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<p>bumping for rachelle</p>

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<p>To clarify a previous post, Syracuse has a different evaluation process than described earlier. Freshmen entering the program are all in the BS (bachelor of science) Degree in Theatre track. For the first two years this is true. At the end of the sophomore year, students are evaluated and immediately after are either 1.) Recommended a BFA in MT (or Acting) 2.) Recommended to retake one or two classes and reevaluate the following semester or 3.) Recommended a BS degree in theatre. Last year, the standards were raised significantly and out of 26 MTs, around 10 passed. They do not intend for it to be this harsh every year. The faculty is simply trying to raise the bar for students and is expecting more, which is great in my opinon. The same standards are also being applied to the auditions into the program.</p>

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<p>"Freshmen entering the program are all in the BS (bachelor of science) Degree in Theatre track. For the first two years this is true. At the end of the sophomore year, students are evaluated and immediately after are either 1.) Recommended a BFA in MT (or Acting)" </p>

<p>Is this a new policy at SU? When I was a BFA student at SU the above was true for for the Acting concentration but not the MT concentration. I was looking at the curriculum on the SU website, and Musical Theatre students begin taking specialized classes in Musical Theatre their freshman year. I am curious as to how this works with the policy that you mention above. Very interesting...</p>

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<p>I, too, would like someone to clarify this vis a vis the Syracuse U MT program. This is the first time I have heard that people admitted by audition and application to the MT program are not in the actual BFA program until later. This doesn't sound right to me. I am taking my D to visit the campus and MT program next week, and I am going to ask this question. I will bring the answer to the list at that time if no one does it before me! :)</p>

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<p>Is this a new policy? My D applied to and was accepted into Syracuse's BFA in MT Program two years ago. I also am working with a current applicant to this MT program and had not heard anything about any change as a BFA for MT as freshman. I also was not aware of a BS track for MT students, nor of major cuts like you are discussing. Has there been a change in the program?</p>

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<p>I may have misspoke. I'm a current freshman MT and a professor has made it clear that currently, everyone is in the BS track. After evaluations, we branch off. The professor never made it very clear if we're technically in the BS track for two years, but one would assume if the evals are the determining factor. One way of looking at it is to imagine that freshmen and sophomore MTs are in the BS track, while still taking MT courses (consider these electives for now). If the student passes, those MT courses count toward the BFA in MT. If not, I would imagine they simply represent electives, or for all I know they may contribute to the BS degree. It was weird to here this a few weeks back, but it's really not as shocking as it sounds. Freshmen take specialized MT courses. Granted, the only classes that separate freshmen MTs from Acting majors for the first semester are Musical Theatre Practicum, Music Theory, Ballet and Private Voice. Next semester, an extra day of CORE is added to the curriculum in which the Acting majors and the MTs divide and focus on their respective majors. If anybody needs more info or would like to meet up on campus, PM me.</p>

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<p>My son was also offered the BFA in MT last spring from Syracuse, which would have been for this year's freshman class, and we heard nothing about this BS requirement for the first 2 years.</p>

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<p>Don't think of it as a BS requirement. Just understand that the classes that Juniors and Seniors take are upper level classes that only BFA students can take. The BS degree is only for students who are not strong enough to pass their evals and would still like to graduate with a degree in theatre.</p>

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<p>Ditto Ericsmom's comment. My daughter and I both did not understand that there is a possibility of not passing "evals" and graduating with a BS.</p>

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<p>Originally, a student could petition to reevaluate pretty much as much as he or she wanted. After enough tries, the student generally passed. This, from what I am told, became pretty ridiculous. Prior to last year, I think the procedure was that a student could automatically reevaluate once. I'm not totally clear. However, I do know that students evaluate once and they either pass, are recommended to reevaluate, or recommended a BS. Students should be quite so scared that the faculty suddenly raised the standards so much. To be honest, students who are accepted now are considered to be at a highler level than the current seniors were as freshmen. The standards are being spread through the entire department. Yes, the current juniors only had about 10 out of 26 pass, but I'm pretty sure the current sophomores will have considerably more pass. Many times a student will fail his or her evals and be asked to reevaluate. He or she will retake a course or two and then reevaluate the next semester. Often, this is because the faculty knows the student has potential that he or she just isn't living up to. From talking to those students reevaluating, most of them are getting significantly more out of the classes they're repeating and are confident that the next evaluation process will bode well for them. As for the small number that are recommended the BS degree, they just weren't meeting the standards adequately enough. They are still (I believe) able to participate in productions and I'm pretty sure some in the past have even had mainstage leads.<br>
I am not crazy about the process and am worried about my own evals, but I have to live with it if I want to stay at Syrcause (which, trust me, I do!). This is the only program that really suits what I want out of a training program, and frankly it's gonna have its faults. I wish we didn't have a cut system, but we do, and it gives me something to work towards and makes me stay on my toes everyday I'm in class. I'm confident that everything will happen for a reason. I know I'm not going to do anything that I'm not happy doing, so if my evaluations turn out poorly, I will cross that bridge when I come to it. And, the cut system could be worse...they could just kick you out after two years without a degree. So, no I'm not crazy about the system, but I understand the faculty's reasoning behind it. I wouldn't let it deter you from applying to the school.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the explanation, BrendanN. As I said, I am taking my D to SU next week for their fall reception days (or whatever they are called) and you can be sure we will ask this question while visiting VPA.
However, I still am not sure that Syracuse has a "cut" system in the true sense of the word. It sounds to me more as if students who do not continue to progress and who therefore don't pass their juries (or who don't attend class, don't work, have bad attitudes, etc. etc. -- as the King of Siam said in a famous musical :)) are not permitted to continue in the program, which is (imo) as it should be. Why should MT be any different from any other major? Isn't that how college works in every major?
BrendanN, did a teacher or administrator actually tell your class that you guys are at a higher level than were the current seniors when they entered? (I hope none of the seniors heard him or her say that! :))
L</p>

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<p>I would not recommend asking VPA about the "cut system," but rather Murphy down at the Stage. I agree that it really is not exactly a cut system persay, and the faculty definitely is not looking to cut anyone. And yes, a faculty member was very honest with us and told us that we are currently stronger as a group than the Seniors were when they were freshmen. I understand that you might think that is inappropriate, but they are just trying to make us understand that they have even higher expectations for us. We also understand that the freshmen next year will probably be stronger than we are now. It really is common sense at this point.</p>

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<p>So wait, let me ask a wierd question...could I go to syracuse and not audition and be in the BS theatre track and than end up graduating with a BFA in musical theatre if I passed their evaluation? Or are all BS theatre students people who auditioned and got into the BFA program but are first placed in a BS program not open to non audition students?</p>