<p>Even the S/F ratio data are manipulated by schools. Some just use the undergrad population. Others include non tenure track faculty or medical faculty. No way Washington is 11/1.</p>
<p>“As noted earlier, Emorys 25/75 is 1310-1500”</p>
<p>25% of Emory’s student body does not have SAT scores above 1500.</p>
<p>How are the numbers derived?</p>
<p>Good school though.</p>
<p>Here is the data on Emory’s class entering in Fall, 2008:</p>
<p>[College</a> Search - Emory University - SAT®, AP®, CLEP®](<a href=“http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=539&profileId=6]College”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)</p>
<p>According to Emory’s website, the numbers declined slightly in Fall, 2009 to 1300-1480. </p>
<p>[Class</a> Profile](<a href=“http://www.emory.edu/ADMISSIONS/about/class-profile.htm]Class”>http://www.emory.edu/ADMISSIONS/about/class-profile.htm)</p>
<p>Ok. Interesting.</p>
<p>1300 - 1480 when adding the
Cr and Math scores together.</p>
<p>And it looks like 1320-1460 when Emory doesn’t add the scores together.</p>
<p>I thought the difference would be larger.</p>
<p>Hmmmmm…</p>
<p>Well 1500 isn’t it. The 25% cutoff.</p>
<p>I wonder what percentage of students do score over 1500 at Emory?</p>
<p>I bet it isn’t close to 25%.</p>
<p>1390 is close to the median. More likely a little lower.</p>
<p>1460 is the top 25%.</p>
<p>The percentage is dropping quickly as the scores move up.</p>
<p>I can’t help but notice that the unweighted gpa for incoming students is lower at Emory than Berkeley. </p>
<p>Must be all the tough grading teachers at private schools.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Sorry; but this comment makes me laugh. </p>
<p>First of all, SAT scores aren’t the ONLY basis for assessing the intellectual ability of the students. They are also NOT the basis for the quality of the school. If SAT scores are absolute measures of intellect and school standard, then none of the HYPSM is the number one school in the US. That throne probably belongs to Caltech or Olin. Dartmouth, Brown, UPenn and Columbia would certainly lag behind Olin. But I’m not sure if the educated community would agree with your logic.</p>
<p>SAT scores are good measures of the students’ intellectual capacity, but according to Berkeley which you REPEATEDLY fail to understand, they’re just as important (maybe even less) than high school achievement ranks. That is according to Berkeley’s studies which they’re happy to implement for their admission policies. From there alone, we would see that you’re not agreeing with the Berkeley’s studies. Well, Berkeley studied this thing scientifically. Did you do the same thing and came up with a result that contradicted the Berkeley research for you to refute what Berkeley has found out? </p>
<p>Anyway, as a result of that study, Berkeley prioritizes HS achievement ranks. That’s Berkeley’s admission rules now. The almost 100% students that have matriculated in Berkeley who belong to the top 10% reflect that certain rule I was talking about. If Berkeley’s study had shown that high SAT scores are better measures of intellect than HS achievement ranks, Berkeley would have reversed it admission rules. Don’t you think so? </p>
<p>
Now, if superscoring provides benefits to those schools that do superscore, Emory must have benefited from that system as Emory, like we all know, does superscore SATs. (Please don’t tell me that it doesn’t.) If that’s the case, then I think it’s safe to assume that 30points were added to Emory’s numbers. And, since Emory is a private school and private schools are known to be playing the USNews game seriously, or more so than the public do, I won’t be surprised if more points have been added from that figure to further boost their numbers. I’m sure Emory had played the game as serious as they can because ranking is important for them. </p>
<p>The figures that Middsmith posted are numbers for enrolled Berkeley students. You probably have posted data of accepted students. Enrolled students’ data are usually lower than accepted students’ data. Did you consider that?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Correction. The only thing that we can conclude here is that, Emory’s student body has slightly higher average SAT scores than Berkeley’s L&S’. That’s just it, nothing more nothing less. </p>
<p>On the other hand, we can also make a conclusion that there are significantly more high school superstars at Berkeley’s L&S than there are at Emory University. And, that, if you are not a high school superstar, won’t get into Berkeley, but would at Emory, maybe even easily. </p>
<p>Another thing: According to USNews, Berkeley is more selective than Emory. And, according to USNews, Berkeley is one of the top choices for high school counselors recommending Berkeley to their most talented students. Emory isn’t even in the top 20.</p>
<p>Another thing again: If you’re applying as OOS to Berkeley, you’ll find it significantly tougher to get into than Emory. If you’re a New Yorker, for example, you’re more likely going to get into Emory than you would into Berkeley. And, if, again, you are a new Yorker, what would be your compelling reason for going to Emory than Berkeley? Berkeley has a prestigious name, aside from almost all its departments are in the top 5 in the nation. For example, Berkeley’s Chemistry is the best in the world. What is Emory’s forte that people from New York would be attracted to it than to Berkeley? At least, Berkeley’s prestige and respect as an academic institution far extends America. You have no idea how so-so Emory’s reputation is compared to Berkeley’s outside of your own world. </p>
<p>Another thing part three: If you’re applying for a specific course, say computer science at L&S and at Emory, how do you think Emory woudl compare to Berkeley L&S’ computer science? Did you consider that? </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>WRONG. Berkeley is considered more prestigious and respected than Emory is for the super smart students, best faculty, best researchers and even by HS counselors across America. (Check US News’ data on that part.) The only reason why the (SAT) data have resulted to Emory’s favor (which was your ONLY basis unfortunately) is because Berkeley is generous to IS (aside of course from the fact that Berkeley values HS achievement ranks more.) That’s just it. It does not remove the fact that Berkeley is superior to Emory and its still the more attractive school than Emory is if you’re a super smart student. Again, for example, if I’m applying for computer science, why would I even consider Emory? It’s not even in the list of the best comsci students across America, let alone the world. On the contrary, I’m pretty sure that the best comsci students out there have at least thought of getting into Berkeley’s world-class computer science program.</p>
<p>
Uhhhhhhh… if based on SAT scores, yes, but very slightly. based on HS achievement ranks, however, you’re completely wrong. </p>
<p>
It doesn’t matter. Berkeley has 99%. Emory has only 88%. based on statistics, Berkeley is superior to Emory, by a long shot. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This is irrelevant and a digression from our topic. Of course, I’m very aware about the American higher education. I have lived in the US, hawkette. Though my father is Italian and spent my college years in England, i was born in Chicago (so that makes me an American passport holder) and spent my younger years in Chicago, and later in California. We have properties in LA and Chicago which I visit yearly. I also travel a lot. I participated in the Google postgrad cert program at Stanford for almost a year. And some information which I don’t feel comfortable saying it publicly. Of course, I’m not claiming to be more knowledgeable than you are. But to say I do not understand what I’m saying is completely untrue. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>strength of student body - based on a combination of SAT scores, HS achievement ranks and selectivity rate, Berkeley edges Emory.</p>
<p>size of classroom - not significant enough for consideration. There’s no difference in the learning atmosphere in a class with 15 students or 10 students. </p>
<p>teaching - This is again, in Berkeley’s favor. According to USNews, Berkeley is top 10 for Teaching Quality and Emory is not even in the top 20. </p>
<p>institutional resources dedicated to undergraduates - we have yet to establish this. As we can see, the facilities at Berkeley is significantly better than Emory’s. Maybe the comfort rooms at Emory are cleaner, but Emory doesn’t have those high-tech equipment that Berkeley has. In terms of library collections, internet, etc. Berkeley is clearly superior to Emory.</p>
<p>This thread was about the top 10 out of state public schools. How’d it change to a comparison of resources at smaller private institutions? That is like comparing apples to oranges.</p>
<p>The fact is, there is no top 10 State Us for OOS in America. There’s either a top 1 or a top 4. But after the top 4, there’s already a significant drop in quality and prestige amongst the public institutions. So, I think this thread fails, no offense to hawkette who, in my personal opinion, has always been informative despite her obvious dislike to public schools and insanely particular to petty, minor matters such as faculty to student ratio and stuff.</p>
<p>RML …love your post # 65.</p>
<p>Post # 65 is way too long. I’ll wait til it comes out as a movie.</p>
<p>lol…</p>
<p>RML,
So many strawmen, mischaracterizations, errors, etc. Come on down off of that high horse. :)</p>
<p>Emory’s reported ACT 25/75 is 30-33. Using the same approach used earlier for UCLA, I get:</p>
<p>ACT of 30 = SAT single point of 1340 (range of 1330-1350)
ACT of 33 = SAT single point of 1460 (range of 1440-1480)</p>
<p>So, one would expect that Emory’s SAT 25/75, without superscoring, would be 1340-1460 (mid-point of 1405).</p>
<p>Emory’s reported SAT 25/75 is 1310-1500 (mid-point of 1405). </p>
<p>My conclusion is that they are helped on the high end data point (SAT 75) by superscoring and not at all on the low end. The mid-point of the SAT 25/75 (superscored) and the mid-point of the ACT 25/75 are the same. IMO, the superscoring statistical benefit to Emory is negligible. </p>
<p>I never claimed that standardized test scores are the ONLY basis for determining the intellectual ability of applicants. Please stop with the silly strawmen and misrepresentations. </p>
<p>I will claim, however, that standardized test scores are an important data point for college admissions counselors and the most reliable and consistent data point that independent observers have to make comparisons across the USA. </p>
<p>Re the usefulness of various data points, here is how the National Association of College Admissions Counselors (NACAC) see it:</p>
<p>Considerable Weight , Moderate Weight , Limited or No Weight</p>
<p>75.9% , 17.4% , 6.7% , Grades in college prep courses
61.5% , 25.3% , 13.2% , Strength of curriculum
60.4% , 27.9% , 11.7% , Standardized Test scores (SAT, ACT)
51.2% , 36.4% , 12.5% , Grades in all courses
27.9% , 30.6% , 41.5% , Essay and/or writing sample
23.1% , 38.6% , 38.3% , Class rank
21.2% , 40.7% , 38.0% , Counselor recommendation
20.8% , 31.2% , 48.1% , Student’s demonstrated interest
19.5% , 41.1% , 39.3% , Teacher recommendation
10.4% , 23.1% , 66.5% , Interview
7.6% , 37.0% , 55.4% , Extra-curricular activities
7.6% , 23.5% , 68.8% , Subject test scores (AP, IB)
6.3% , 13.4% , 80.4% , State graduation exam scores
5.2% , 8.5% , 86.3% , SAT II scores
2.9% , 21.5% , 75.5% , Work</p>
<p>RML,
Re the data that I have posted, the collegeboard data for Emory (SAT 25/75 of 1310-1500) is for enrolled students. That was my original contention which dstark challenged. </p>
<p>If one accepts your premise that the SAT 25/75 differences between Emory and UCB are “slight,” then please note the following:</p>
<p>Emory = 1310-1500 (mid-point of 1405) and UCB = 1210-1470 (mid-point of 1340)</p>
<p>The differences are:
25th percentile = 100 points
75th percentile = 30 points
Mid-point = 65 points</p>
<p>Schools with 25th percentiles scoring levels 100 points above Emory: Other than Caltech at 1470, none. The closest would be Yale at 1400 and Harvard and Princeton at 1390. Do you consider Emory’s students in the same league as those at HYP?</p>
<p>Schools with 25th percentiles scoring levels 100 points below UC Berkeley: Virginia Tech, U Connecticut. U Minnesota, Pepperdine, others. Do you consider the students at those schools to be in the same league as UC Berkeley?</p>
<p>For the record, I don’t consider Emory as in HYP’s league and I don’t consider Virginia Tech, U Connecticut, U Minnesota, et al’s students as in the same league with UC Berkeley.</p>
<p>RML,
Would you please direct me to the “super smart” students survey that documents your assertions about the relative status of Emory and UC Berkeley? I think if you met some of the top students from Emory, you might want to revise that statement. </p>
<p>What other high school achievement ranks are you claiming for UC Berkeley students over Emory (or any other Top 20)? Do you think that the privates admit based on standardized test scores and nothing else? For a more informed understanding of how the privates approach college admissions, see NACAC info above. </p>
<p>Finally, have you ever been to Emory? As for institutional resources, have you ever heard of a company called Coca-Cola? Please look into their connection and maybe you’ll begin to appreciate the wealth behind this institution and how that works to the direct benefit of undergraduate students. Heck, Emory probably has twice the endowment of UC Berkeley and 1/3 as many students. </p>
<p>Look, I’m not anti-UCB. It’s going to be very high on my and probably everybody else’s list for this thread. I have a very high regard for the place and hope that more OOS students will attend in the future and contribute to improving the school’s fiscal situation. </p>
<p>But you guys have got to just stop with the cheerleading and learn about (and give a little respect) to other places that do a pretty fine job of educating undergraduates. </p>
<p>Jym,
I tried to break up my long post into smaller nuggets just for you. Anyway, you’re absolutely right. Sorry that this got off-track.</p>
<p>No problem, hawkette. And I appreciate the effort to break up long posts. My eyes start to glaze over when they get massive.</p>
<p>You are correct about Emory and the $$ from Woodruff/Coca Cola/Goizueda. They also got a major ton of $$$ a few years back for drug royalties form an HIV treatment drug [News:</a> 2 Companies Will Pay Emory $525 Million for Drug Royalties - Inside Higher Ed](<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2005/07/19/emory]News:”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2005/07/19/emory) They are no slouch when it comes to funding resources and facilities. That said, they don’t get the kind of funding that State schools get. Well, that assumes the state of California, in its pitiful financial state, can afford to give $$ to its own state schools.</p>
<p>hawkette, I’ll try to make this brief because other readers are complaining already, and I respect them, of course, as I respect you. </p>
<p>Yes, I have been to Emory in 2001. My aunt is an alumna of the medical school. That was my first and only visit to Emory however. What about you? Have you been to Berkeley? Have you attended a program at Berkeley?</p>
<p>Emory has 3x as much endowment fund as Berkeley has, but does Emory receive grants from the government as much as Berkeley does? The answer is an obvious No. So, there again is your failure to understand that public institutions are run differently from privates yet you keep on comparing them the way you do private schools. </p>
<p>About selectivity, why do you think USNews ranked Berkeley higher than Emory for selectivity? If Emory students are smarter than Berkeley students are, why does it lag behind Berkeley in selectivity rank? Again, the simple truth is that, Berkeley has a superior student body than Emory has. You’ll find superstar students at Berkeley that is of national caliber, but not at Emory. Berkeley has the 3rd most National Merit Finalist before the school scrapped it out and replaced it with its own scholarship program.</p>
<p>On SATs. Please stop using SAT as it is the only measure for intellectual capacity of a person. I don’t have the link to the Berkeley study now, but I’m sure it has been discussed here previously. I will show it to you as soon as I find it. </p>
<p>I explained to you why Berkeley’s SAT scores have not been as high as they should have been. I said 2 reasons why that has been so:
- Berkeley favors HS achievement ranks as much as they do SAT scores. That explains why almost everyone at Berkeley was in the top 10% in his/her HS.<br>
- Berkeley admits some low SAT scorers but with high GPA or top 10% in his/her HS. Now, why can’t you understand that too? </p>
<p>I also said that the vast majority of Berkeley’s programs are top 5 in the nation - from engineering to English. On the contrary, there is no single program at Emory that is considered top 5 in America, and Emory is not an LAC that doesn’t offer postgrad programs. So, if Emory does not have a top program, how can it be an attractive school for the super smart students? </p>
<p>I asked you about the New Yorker student in my previous post. But you did not answer that. Are avoiding that?</p>
<p>I’m not also belittling Emory. Of course, Emory is fine university. But honestly, what is Emory compared to Berkeley? Come on. Be realistic. For example, a super smart guy from Texas would want to study business as an OOS. If he has only two options where to take it between Berkeley and Emory, would that smart guy go for Emory-Goizueta instead of Berkeley-Haas? Oh, come on. Everyone who has sufficient background in business studies would know that Goizueta is nothing compared to Haas. </p>
<p>Emory is a good school. According to the USNews criteria, it is a top 20 school. But seriously, anyone who thinks that it is superior to Berkeley must either be misinformed or out of his/her mind.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’m saying Berkeley’s admissions policies and system are different from Emory’s. (That probably goes for the rest of the top 20 as well.) It is obvious that HYPSM put more premium on SAT scores. And, Emory, being a copycat… is doing what HYPSM do all the time. Berkeley - the home of many great researchers and scholars - approach this admission system differently, and they based their admissions on the findings of their own research. </p>
<p>Again, this shouldn’t be hard for you to fathom. Berkeley DOES NOT put as much premium on SATs as Emory does. Again, Berkeley does not value SATs as much as Emory does. Therefore, making a conclusion that Emory students are smarter than Berkeley students because of their SATs data is a flaw on your part.</p>
<p>Not sure why you guys are picking on Emory, but here are numbers from the 2008-9 CDS:
</p>
<p>*** this isnt copying well-- here’s the CDS:
<a href=“http://www.emory.edu/PROVOST/IPR/documents/factbookprofile/CDS2008_2009_COMPLETED_09-10Updated.pdf[/url]”>http://www.emory.edu/PROVOST/IPR/documents/factbookprofile/CDS2008_2009_COMPLETED_09-10Updated.pdf</a></p>
<p>Bottom line-- for those who really put any stock into the USNews rankings-- Emory is higher than Cal.</p>
<p>I have nothing against Emory. Nothing.</p>
<p>“C9 SAT Critical Reading 640 740
C9 SAT Math 670 760”</p>
<p>If you care about accuracy…you can not add up these scores and say </p>
<p>Emory’s reported SAT 25/75 is 1310-1500 (mid-point of 1405). </p>
<p>For this to be true you would have to have a linear distribution (and it isn’t). </p>
<p>You would have to have EVERY single student who scored in the top 25% in the SAT verbal portion also score in the top 25% of the math portion.</p>
<p>So What do you think jym626, is that possible?</p>
<p>And then there is superscoring…</p>
<p>Emory’s scores are inflated. Berkeley’s are too.</p>
<p>Kind of does a disservice to students.</p>
<p>Gives students an impression that SAT scores for schools are higher than they really are…and therefore they need higher scores to compete.</p>
<p>I have nothing against Emory or hawkette (personally) too. </p>
<p>My only issue with hawkette is that she asserts that SAT scores are the ultimate measure of students’ intellect. She makes conclusions based on SAT scores alone. It’s obvious then that she fails to understand that not all schools’ admission system is the same. Some schools put more premium of SAT scores. Some don’t put as much. Some don’t consider them at all. I guess hawkette needs to learn that such things exist.</p>
<p>When you breakout scores for minorities, athletes, special considerations, etc, the numbers for the average white kid are probably right on or a little low.</p>
<p>dstark-
Since 45-61% of the students scored over 700 , its just as possible (almost 50:50) that a student could have scored over 600 in one and over 700 in the other-- or what have you. Thats really not the point. I didn’t post the stats that you seem to have issue with, another poster did. I was just providing the CDS. Chill.</p>