<p>I’m chilled. :)</p>
<p>You gotta love any thread about any ranking for any school based on any measure.</p>
<p>lol…</p>
<p>
RML-
Are you referring to faculty research grant money? Given that Cal is 3X the size of Emory (undergrad/grad), it should have substantially more faculty applying for federal grant money. So of course Cal would/should have more federal research grant $$. What is your point? These comparisons are just silly, as LasMa said. It is surprising you aren’t beating up on USNews for ranking Emory higher than Cal.</p>
<p>RML,
For the sake of not taking this thread even further off-topic, I’m not going to belabor this Emory-UCB comparison except to say that I disagree quite strongly with your assertions about the value of class rank and think you have a very limited understanding of the comprehensive and holistic nature of elite private college admissions. Your focus on prestige and reputation within academia unquestionably dominates your thinking, but doesn’t acknowledge that the activities that spurred the reputations of many prominent publics, including UCB, have little to do with the happenings that surround the average undergraduate student. </p>
<p>Fundamentally, we have different values-you worship at the altar of academic prestige; I worship at the altar of the broad UNDERGRADUATE experience (academic and non-academic, inside and outside of the classroom). If one chooses a college based largely on the reputation within academia, then the choice of UCB over Emory would be understandable. If one chooses based on the full calculus of student strength, size of classroom, teaching, and institutional resources for undergrads, then Emory would be the more logical choice. </p>
<p>I should add that neither would be better in all circumstances and the relative strengths of the arguments for each wax and wane as you move about the country. </p>
<p>BTW, IMO many students would pick Goizueta over Haas. It’s a pretty swell place and has better placement in certain regions of the country (definitely in the Southeast, probably in many places along the Eastern seaboard, including Manhattan). If one wanted California or the West Coast as a working locale, then Haas would be a much stronger choice. </p>
<p>Now back to our previously-schedule programming. Here’s some more data for the thread: </p>
<p>INSTITUTIONAL RESOURCES </p>
<pre><code> % Borrow , Amt of Debt , Endowment Per Capita , Fin , State University
39% , $12,589 , $73,497 , 88 , WILLIAM & MARY
39% , $14,291 , $86,722 , 43 , UC BERKELEY
40% , $14,343 , $1,467 , 110 , U GEORGIA
32% , $14,946 , $81,767 , 31 , U N CAROLINA (meet 100% of need for OOS students)
41% , $15,318 , $18,988 , 46 , U FLORIDA
50% , $16,317 , $24,471 , 26 , UC SAN DIEGO
43% , $16,733 , $64,729 , 25 , UCLA
50% , $16,800 , $53,890 , 30 , U WASHINGTON
42% , $17,000 , $55,473 , 86 , U TEXAS
33% , $19,016 , $184,090 , 64 , U VIRGINIA (meet 100% of need for OOS students)
54% , $19,891 , $24,603 , 61 , U ILLINOIS
44% , $20,091 , $12,377 , 88 , U MARYLAND
48% , $20,881 , $16,492 , 50 , GEORGIA TECH
52% , $21,123 , $48,219 , 53 , U WISCONSIN
56% , $21,413 , $38,368 , 61 , OHIO STATE
56% , $22,013 , $20,533 , 146 , INDIANA U
52% , $23,087 , $42,247 , 88 , PURDUE
64% , $23,811 , $21,899 , 37 , U MINNESOTA
46% , $25,586 , $181,883 , 37 , U MICHIGAN
69% , $26,800 , na , 67 , PENN STATE
na , na , na , 36 , U PITTSBURGH
na , na , $7,505 , 86 , CLEMSON
na , na , $16,936 , 131 , VIRGINIA TECH
</code></pre>
<p>
</p>
<p>But you have miserably failed to justify and prove that Emory is superior to Berkeley in any of these criteria except for the faculty-to-student ratio, which is not that important. </p>
<p>As it stands, all the other criteria favor Berkeley over Emory. </p>
<p>Berkeley L&S are just about as smart if not smarter students than Emory University (99% in the top 10% of his/her HS, almost identical SAT scores with Emory when superscored and considering that many of these kids are Pell grantees, these kids would most likely do more and well when given the right material.) On top of that, Berkeley engineering students, which count about half of the entire Emory student body, are obviously smarter than the general Emory student body. These are students seldom be seen at a school like Emory, but are average type at Berkeley and at ivies. These are students who turned down ivies and some elite schools like Duke, Chicago, NU and the like to attend Berkeley Engineering. You don’t often see these kind of students at Emory, for there is no compelling reason to go to Emory when they have been acceptance at an ivy school or schools that are obviously more prestigious than Emory. </p>
<p>Berkeley has also an obvious better teaching quality than Emory has. The US News & World Report, your infallible, bible truth of all these rankings that you’re “publishing” on here, says that Berkeley’s Teaching Quality and Standard is superior to that of Emory’s. Yet you keep on saying Emory has got an edge on this area. Where is your proof that Emory has better teaching standard than Berkeley has then? </p>
<p>As for institutional resources, well, Berkeley has an established academic facility. If Berkeley is an up-and-coming school and is still on the process of building and expanding… that would probably make sense. So, no, this isn’t an issue between Berkeley and Emory. Aside from that, Emory is also in crises just like every other school in America is, including Harvard, Yale, Stanford and Princeton - America’s 4 riches schools of higher learning.</p>
<p>And, BTW, the endowment fund that you’re talking about for Emory would not entirely benefit the undergrad there for Emory’s medical school probably owns half of that fund.</p>
<p>On Topic: It’s hard to come up with Top 10 State Universities for OOS that would be acceptable for everyone. In America, there is either a Top 1 or a Top 4. But Top 10 for OOS? That’s subject for long debates.</p>
<p>Not sure if there is any point in continuing to participate in what has become a silly discussion. While some posters, like Hawkette, provide statistics, other people seem to enjoy making stuff up as they go along, without supportive data, and just because they think or say it is “obviously” so means everyone should believe it and take it as gospel? :rolleyes: Whose to say that either school has an “obviously” better teaching quality? Many would select Emory for smaller class sizes and the opportunity to be taught predominantly by doctoral level faculty, not grad students. And just because a school has a engineering school (which Emory does not, although it has collaborative programs in biotech, nanotech and regenerative medicine with Ga Tech) doesn’t mean these students are “obviously” smarter. And where’s the data to say Emory is in crisis?? If any school is in “crisis”, I’d be worried about schools that count on state funding from a state in bankrupcy. And it doesn’t take much reading (if one would do so instead of just argue) to see that the millions that went to Emory for the pharma drug sale (not bad for a school that doesn’t have a pharmacy school) went to both the med school and the chemistry dept. And Berkeley has an “established” academic facility? What does that mean? Emory’s classes are not exactly taught in trailers or quonset huts. </p>
<p>This has become an “obviously” ridiculous discussion. Both are fine schools, and students would choose to attend one or the other for different reasons. And sorry to disappoint RML, but I know the dau of a poster on CC who turned down Pomona and, I believe, U of Chicago for Emory (she got into several very top schools, but chose Emory). There are surely other students who chose Emory over other, possibly “better” schools, for different reasons. Fine to have the rah-rah pompoms out for Cal. But no need to put down other schools in the process.</p>
<p>It’s a pity I can’t “like” comments on CC like I can on FB (perhaps on the next upgrade?). If so, Jym’s post would certainly qualify.</p>
<p>Well said! Let’s keep the discussion on track. [I’m</a> not surprised](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063495791-post91.html]I’m”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063495791-post91.html) it has veered off course.
</p>
<p>Thank you, IBclass06. Appreciate your kind sentiments. </p>
<p>Byt he way, remind me to check to see if the Center for Disease Control and Prevention or the American Cancer Society, both of which are housed near the Emory Medical School and offer opportunities for students, are housed in trailers :rolleyes:</p>
<p>jym626, </p>
<p>I’d like to take this opportunity to disprove hawkette’s belief, as well as yours, that Emory is superior to Berkeley. You were asking some sources, well, to prove that I wasn’t inventing my claims, here some of the things I’ve gathered which you and hawkette have a hard time believing.</p>
<p>Best Colleges: High School Counselor Rankings of National Universities
[Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-counselor-rank]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-counselor-rank)
Berkeley - 9
Emory - 25</p>
<p>Best Colleges: Undergraduate Teaching at National Universities
[Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-ut-rank]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-ut-rank)
Berkeley - 11
Emory - not even in the list of top schools. (I would surmise it’s not even in the top 30.)</p>
<p>Best Colleges: Top 100 - Lowest Acceptance Rates
[Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/lowest-acceptance-rate]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/lowest-acceptance-rate)
Berkeley - 21.6%
Emory - 26.6%</p>
<p>Selectivity Rank
[National</a> Universities Rankings - Best Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-universities-rankings]National”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-universities-rankings)
Berkeley -14
Emory - not even in the top 25</p>
<p>Freshmen Retention Rate
[Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-freshmen-least-most-likely-return]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-freshmen-least-most-likely-return)
Berkeley - 96.5%
Emory - 94.2%</p>
<p>In addition to the above, Berkeley students have a higher average HS GPA than Emory’s. 99% of Berkeley students were from the top 10%. In contrast only 88% were from Emory.</p>
<p>For Harvard’s law school, med school and MBA programs, Berkeley grads count more than Emory grads do, that despite the fact that Berkeley has also a pretty strong professional schools. Even at Yale Law, Wharton MBA, UC-San Francisco Med, JHU Med, you’d see that Berkeley grads are more represented that Emory grads are. </p>
<p>And, lastly, one of the ultimate measures of the school’s prestige is how their products do after college. According to payscale.com, Berkeley grads make more than Emory grads do. In fact, Berkeley grads make exceptionally well compared to the vast majority of the schools across America. Berkeley grads make more than grads of three Ivy League schools, namely Brown, Columbia and Cornell. Grads of these 3 Ivies, however, make much more than Emory grads do.
[Top</a> US Colleges ? Graduate Salary Statistics](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-us-colleges-graduate-salary-statistics.asp]Top”>http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-us-colleges-graduate-salary-statistics.asp)</p>
<p>So, whatever angle you’ll look at this, there is actually no contest here. Berkeley is superior to Emory, and the gap between them is even wide than you’ve imagined.</p>
<p>Read IBClass06’s post. You are just making yourself look sillier and sillier, RML. A school that is 3X the size of another will understandably have greater representation in some grad or law schools. I am surprised you didnt say that Cal football players have greater representation in professional teams. Oh wait, Emory doesnt have a team. Sheesh. Goodbye. Go waste someone elses time.</p>
<p>IBclass06,</p>
<p>Excuse me; but this is a thread about State Universities. Did you forget that Berkeley is a state u? If there’s a "squatter"n this thread, it’s Emory. ;)</p>
<p>jym626: You asked for proofs/links. I gave them to you. That’s not being silly.
As to your Berkeley is 3x the size of Emory, then call that as Berkeley’s advantage. But, even if we will get the % of those admitted students against those who apply from those schools, I’m pretty confident that the figures will still be on Berkeley’s favor, big time. </p>
<p>And, what is your scapegoat for Emory grads making significantly less than Berkeley grads? :D</p>
<p>Your graduate salary list doesn’t adjust for location or cost of living. Using your table, I guess Colgate and Bucknell are better schools than Cal. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>And “proof”, by spewing the flawed USnews listings that you challenged earlier, is hardly “proof” of any discernable difference in what you claimed were “obvious” differences (facilities, faculty, intellect of the students, etc). Please stop wasting our time. Good day.</p>
<p>This is where UCBChemEGrad normally weighs in but since he is not …</p>
<p>NAS members:
UCB - 129
Emory - 3</p>
<p>I believe we can safely conclude that UCB obviously has more established science faculty.</p>
<p>:D </p>
<p>[10 char.]</p>
<p>Gee I didn’t know Emory had that many?</p>
<p>Comparing student body strength via average SAT scores is pointless when the cohort populations are not of similar size.</p>
<p>[Faculty</a>, Civil Rights, and Education Groups Blast UC Regent’s Claims about Berkeley and the SAT | FairTest](<a href=“http://www.fairtest.org/faculty-civil-rights-and-education-groups-blast-uc]Faculty”>Faculty, Civil Rights, and Education Groups Blast UC Regent's Claims about Berkeley and the SAT - Fairtest)</p>
<p>" Social science evidence and admission data justify “comprehensive review” at the University of California rather than heavy reliance on the SAT, according to a report released by a broad coalition of professors, civil rights organizations, and education groups.
The UC Coalition Report was prompted by UC Regent Chair John Moores’ confidential report on Berkeley admissions, which was leaked to the media, and sparked enormous controversy over the fairness of the Berkeley admissions process. Moores claimed that students with SATs below 1000 “don’t have any business going to Berkeley.”
William Kidder of the Equal Justice Society, one of the drafters of the Report, stated, “I am saddened that the Chair of the UC Regents would make such provocative statements about Berkeley students being unqualified without a shred of evidence. Our UC Coalition Report, supported by a dozen Berkeley faculty members, proves that students with lower SATs are highly qualified and successful at Berkeley.”
The UC Coalition Report showed that Berkeley students with SATs in the 900s graduated 79% of the time, while those with SATs in the 1500s graduated 82% of the time. At other elite colleges, students with SAT scores under 1000 graduated 83% of the time compared to 87% for students with 1300+ SATs, the Report found.
Bob Schaeffer of FairTest concluded, “Our report carefully documents why the SAT does not equal merit. When combined with high school grades at UC, the SAT only adds about five percent to the prediction of freshman grades.”"</p>
<p>[California</a> College President: Drop SAT](<a href=“http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/satlocke.html]California”>http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/satlocke.html)</p>
<p>"``To drop the SAT would be like deciding you’re going to drop grades,‘’ said Gaston Caperton, president of the nonprofit College Board, which owns the SAT. Critics say high school grades are a better indicator of a student’s ability than an SAT score. Others say the SAT is crucial to provide a national yardstick - all A’s, for instance, are not created equal. A Massachusetts group that argues a high SAT score may have more to do with money spent on pre-testing coaching than ability said the proposal is a step in the right direction.
``There will be strong pressure on other state college systems to follow California's lead,'' said Robert Schaeffer of FairTest, which advocates less emphasis on standardized test. One of the criticisms leveled against the SAT is that it is culturally biased and unfair to disadvantaged students. Admissions diversity has been an issue at UC since 1995, when regents voted to drop affirmative action. Numbers of black and Hispanic students have fallen at top campuses since then.
Caperton defended the SAT as extremely fair. What is not fair is the education system in America which gives children unequal opportunities.'' But Atkinson said an overemphasis on SAT I scores has created theeducational equivalent of a nuclear arms race,'' that hurts all involved but poses a risk to any institution that opts out. Jeff Rubenstein, assistant vice president of the Princeton Review and author of several books about test preparation, said Atkinson's announcement may prove a rallying point. ``People are finally beginning to realize the incredibly narrow scope of what this test measures which is completely out of proportion with the importance given to it by most people,'' he said."</p>
<p>RML – For future reference, I recommend the following for long posts: {code}blahblahblahblah{/code}</p>
<p>Replacing {} with , of course. It helps keep things tidy. Links are even better when available, as [in</a> this case it is](<a href="http://people.oregonstate.edu/~petersp/ORST/WR121_files/Argument%20Documents/Should%20SAT’s%20be%20a%20factor%20in%20college%20admissions%20sample%20essay.doc]in">http://people.oregonstate.edu/~petersp/ORST/WR121_files/Argument%20Documents/Should%20SAT’s%20be%20a%20factor%20in%20college%20admissions%20sample%20essay.doc).</p>
<p>It’s generally a good idea to cite a source. Given the grammar of that paper (which would certainly not fly for SAT W), I am certain it’s not a faculty publication. </p>
<p>dstark – And yet Asian applicants at Berkeley would have a collective conniption fit if black or Native American applicants were admitted with lower test scores. Attempting to have one’s cake and eat it too? Either the SAT means something or nothing.</p>
<p>I must confess that I remain confused by the purpose of this thread. As far as I can see, the “top 10” lists are based neither on OOS financial aid available nor on the number of OOS students admitted or enrolled. Why not just give this thread the title that it’s really about – the supposed top 10 publics, period.</p>