What do you think of the Pope's comments?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Notre Dame
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<p>I normally don't post opinion threads, but I am curious what all of you think. I am split but I am leaning towards not being too happy about it I think. I will say that I have looked a good amount into Islam through the years and there are parts of the Koran that scare me and the extremists scare me. However, I think there are a lot of very good Muslims, and they make up the vast vast majority.</p>

<p>Pope Benedict's comments look to just be in question because the source was a bit iffy, and really he should have known that. He is a well-known scholar, plus he should know that anything he says can be taken quite literally. How many people do you know that can speak infallibly? </p>

<p>What gets me is it looks the the Vatican isn't backing down. Why not? Unless they are trying to make a clear message (and maybe they are, but I am not sure I agree with it if they are) why not apologize and move on as well as you can? </p>

<p>I don't know, what do you guys think? I really would like to hear other opinions on this story!</p>

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<p>It's a bad move.</p>

<p>The Pope's image is at sake here.</p>

<p>He has the right to defend his religion, but criticizing Mohammed himself was a bit too excessive.</p>

<p>I would've just stayed quiet...</p>

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<p>Frankly, I wish the same outrage would be expressed by these groups at the slaughter of hundreds of muslims every month by their fellow Muslims in Iraq. Where is the outrage over that? Since its Muslims murdering other Muslims, then its alright?</p>

<p>I wish the same outrage would be expressed by these groups everytime an Islamist "army" straps a bomb to a fellow Muslim and has them kill themselves and innocent women and children all in the name of their religion.</p>

<p>I wish the same outrage by these groups would be expressed at the violence and repression directed toward women in many Islamic cultures. Where is the outrage there?</p>

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<p>That is a very good point but I think that may be cultural. I am not sure that death phases them nearly as much as it would affect us, and likewise I think that any insult to their beliefs bothers them much more than us.</p>

<p>BTW, the Vatican came out with a statement today saying the pope is regretful about the outrage that has been caused. Note the statement, he isn't sorry, he is upset. That is like saying I am regretful that you broke your leg...but not sorry for pushing you down the stairs.</p>

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<p>Yeah, I think Irish is right- death doesn't faze them so much because they live in a troubled part of the world and they see it happen every day. Insults to our beliefs don't get to us quite so much because we live in a society that includes free speech, so we have to get used to it.</p>

<p>I also think that Islam is kind of a scary religion when you look at what it says in the Koran, but all the muslims I know are wonderful people and it's hard to make generalizations about an entire religion (especially one that encompasses so many different sects and cultural groups). Also, the pope really ought to know better than to jeopardize his image (and the image of the entire Roman Catholic Church) with remarks like that. Even with an apology- when so many people look to you for advice, admitting a mistake can weaken your authority. Especially for Pope Benedict, John Paul II's papacy is a hard act to follow, and it seems like there are a few Catholics who still haven't been won over.</p>

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<p>I think the Pope had the right to say what he did. These "peace-loving" Muslims around the world that go out burning flags and trying to stir up violence any time anything negative is said about their religion need to take a good look at themselves. You don't see every Christian going out and raising a rucus when someone says something anti-Christian (which is VERY common these days) and you don't see the Jewish people going nuts whenever many Muslims call for the destruction of their nation. Those that condemn the Pope's right to free speech (which was a quote) are hypocrites and need to accept the fact that certain religious laws (whether they be Muslim, Christian, or whatever) shall not have precedence over civil rights.</p>

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<p>One thing I would add to what Brand said is actually a response from Muslim leaders. I don't think it was what was said, but rather who said it. The leader of a major church with a billion (with a b) members has to be careful with what he says about other faiths, or even what can be inferred.</p>

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<p>Burning alive nearly 3000 people working at their jobs one morning in the name of ISLAM doesn't seem to provoke much if any outrage.. whereas the Pope's comment does</p>

<p>Something is wrong here</p>

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<p>CITATION, are you comparing the Pope to Bin Laden? I personally demand more of the Pope. As a Catholic and an Arab, I am personally disgusted by this Pope. The guy is a racist. Then again, what do you expect from a man that once belonged to the Nazi party. He does not speak for me, that's for sure.</p>

<p>The Pope, in his eternal wisdom, quotes an ignorant windbag from the 15th century insulting the prophet of a faith that has over 1,000,000,000 followers and then he says he did not think he would offend them? Come on! And even if he mispoke, any mentally challenged person could have recognized the error and should have appologized. The Pope continue to insist he did not say anything wrong. The man is a menace and he represents over 1 billion Catholics. </p>

<p>Oh, and one more thing, I have yet to meet an Arab/Muslim who was not shocked, saddened and disturbed by 9/11. Sure there some people around the world who did not condemn 9/11 (people who have lost everything because of the US), but the vast majority of Arabs/Muslims were very much against 9/11.</p>

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<p>One thing, the pope as a matter of doctrine, does not speak infallibly all the time. He does so when commenting on theological and moral issues speaking from the seat of Peter. just something that most people dont seem to know.</p>

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<p>I agree Red, nobody is perfect. But the Pope must have realized what he said afterwards and appologized. IF everything was perfectly ok between West and East, it may have been overlooked. But right now, relations between Chirstian nations and Muslim nations are very tense. The Pope should act as a voice of reason and restraint. What he said was unacceptable.</p>

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<p>Red, I know that infallible statements are few and far between and they have to do with matters of faith like Mary being free of sin and things of that nature. I just was saying it scares me a bit that Benedict has this power...I hope he doesn't use it. </p>

<p>I don't know, there have been good points on both sides (and I hope they continue) and I am very glad I started the thread. It is a good dialogue to have. The problem is that there are scary things about Islam, but then again most of the Muslim people are wonderful! It seems like you either have to worry about the scary things and look down on all of the people, or try to not focus on the scary things and proclaim that Islam is a peaceful religion. Where you need to be is somewhere in the middle I think, and I don't know really how to be there.</p>

<p>Another question I have is where do we go from here as a nation? I have seen boards that say we should bomb Mecca, and I don't think that is a good idea, but yet it just doesn't seem to be working with where we are now and one of these days one of the sides is really going to pay for it!</p>

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<p>Irish, M, I don't get your statement about hoping the pope doesn't use the "power" of infallibility. First of all, it's not a "power." Second, the pope, in the seat of Peter, is infallibly protected from teaching error. When he speaks ex cathedra, from the seat of Peter, he is speaking truth. A pope can hold personal beliefs about events of the day that are wrong (See indulgences, or the inquisition, or popes having kids. My weren't the middle ages fun) but still speak ex cathedra and not be wrong.</p>

<p>Speaking ex cathedra doesn't happen very often because it is believed most of doctrine is already developed. And the pope (or the College of Cardinals) can only clarify a belief that is already and has always been definitely held by the faithful. The Immaculate Conception of Mary, for example, was formally declared in the mid-1800s. It was, however, always held as truth, and only formally stated to clarify and refute other claims.</p>

<p>On the Muslim debate, I'd like to clarify that every news account I've read have used the term "radical Muslim sects" and that they are the ones who are outraged. I'm not hearing from any rational or mainline Muslim leaders that an apology is necessary. My hunch is this is mostly media attention.</p>

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<p>You are right, I guess the main thing is I am still wishing it was JPII and I don't have a great deal of trust in Benedict as of yet. </p>

<p>That is very possible. I haven't been watching the news, no time, but have been reading up on Foxnews.com to try to figure out what is going on, so that has been my source on the whole thing. Regardless of who is complaining, there are still two things that concern me. First of all, I think someone in a position such as Pope really has to watch their words and be more careful about what is said or who is being quoted. that may be excessive sometimes, I know, but there are a lot of tensions right now and the last thing we really need is a religious leader stirring things up, even accidentally.</p>

<p>Secondly, what concerns me the most honestly is that he didn't just apologize. How easy would it have been to say I made a mistake, I shouldn't have said this, and move on. How many statements do we need from the Vatican and now (finally) from Pope Benedict himself saying they are sorry for the "reaction." That apoogy even bothers me because to me it just doesn't seem genuine. It is like my example earlier on of saying you are sorry someone's leg hurts when you pushed them down the stairs. Really, what good does that statement do? We are sorry you are offended seems to have built into it the assumption that "we don't think you should be" and "we really aren't sorry that we said it, we would do it again."</p>

<p>I don't know, I just don't have a good feeling from this honestly. I think it is part of the reason I am not trusting him too much right now. </p>

<p>This is an honest question because I think you may disagree with me... Docmom, why not just apologize? I don't get that.</p>

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<p>The pope is a "racist" because he dared say anything that might be construed to be negative about Islam? Frankly I find the double standard when it comes to Islam to be a remarkable thing? At what point will Islam be accountable for the horrible actions undertaken in its name? At what point will the "moderate" voices be "outraged" at the murder and violence that somehow, in the eyes of these moderates, is not as bad as a cartoon or a plea from the Pope not to use religion to justify violence?
Sorry but Islam has more than its fair share of racist and mysognistic groups. The Islamic world needs to be as accountable as anyone else.</p>

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<p>There's a lot in every holy book that is disturbing. Both the Bible and the Koran proclaim unabashedly that women are subordinate to men. Every religion has its flaws. Both Christians and Muslims have committed atrocities for years...it's convenient to forget the centuries of Crusades and colonialism inflicted on the Muslims and other non-Christians by Christians...the truth is, massacres and despicable behavior in the name of religion are not unique to Muslims. None of the Christians criticizing the Muslim religion would sit down and shut up if someone pointed out something like this about their religion. THAT double standard is preventing progress.</p>

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<p>I actually went and read the entirety of the Pope's speech, although I have to say it was so dry, academic and eye-glazingly dull, I couldn't quite figure out the point. It wasn't as if it were an anti-Muslim speech, it was an academic treatise that wandered in all sorts of directions only theologians could fully understand.</p>

<p>That being said, I think the Pope would be wrong to retract what he said.</p>

<p>As usual, the press is only partially excerpting the speech. I find the most interesting points to be what immediately followed the controversial citation of an emporer's words on Muhammed:</p>

<p>"The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. </p>

<p>God is not pleased by blood, and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...."</p>

<p>Contrast this with burning Christian churches on the West Bank, a nun shot in Somalia, terror threats on the Vatican, and protests simmering on the edge of violence all over the world... Contrast that with two American journalists taken hostage, threatened with beheading, and then released only because they converted to Islam. </p>

<p>How many wretched things have Islamic leaders said about Judaism, or Christianity, for that matter? How many times have Jews or Christians taken to the streets in acts of violence to protest?</p>

<p>Sometimes the truth is just the truth. Sometimes the truth needs to be spoken. Violent fascism carrying the mantle of Islam endangers our world. Perhaps better than appeasing and enabling the violent extremists within their ranks, Muslims who wish their religion to be a peace-loving one should denounce the violent jihaddists within their ranks--a reformation of sports.</p>

<p>Why should the pope apologize for speaking the truth, just because it isn't what some people want to hear? Why, particularly, should the Pope retract comments to the effect that faith in God should not be spread by sword simply because people fear a violent backlash? The violence perpetrated thus far just proves the truth of the words he cited.</p>

<p>Stand tall, Pope Benedict. Just as when Martin Luther scrawled his 99 theses on the doors of St. Peter's, sometimes what we don't want to hear is precisely what we need to hear!</p>

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<p>I think this is a good point as well. As you can tell, I kind of fall on both sides of the argument...if that is possible.</p>

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<p>"How many wretched things have Islamic leaders said about Judaism, or Christianity, for that matter? How many times have Jews or Christians taken to the streets in acts of violence to protest?</p>

<p>Sometimes the truth is just the truth. Sometimes the truth needs to be spoken. Violent fascism carrying the mantle of Islam endangers our world. Perhaps better than appeasing and enabling the violent extremists within their ranks, Muslims who wish their religion to be a peace-loving one should denounce the violent jihaddists within their ranks--a reformation of sports."</p>

<p>Very well said ddjones.</p>

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<p>Amazed you are up and functioning... I thought all of you would be bed-ridden in depression after the whipping my U of Michigan. What happened? Have you all draped the big Fisher F in black for a period of mourning? </p>

<p>I was having flashbacks to the Faust era!</p>