What happens when rich kids and poor kids become friends at college and beyond?

Parents Forum
1

<p>An article in the NY Times...When Money Changes Everything</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/fashion/sundaystyles/07friendss.html?ex=1147320000&en=51740dae1201c5bd&ei=5087%0A%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/fashion/sundaystyles/07friendss.html?ex=1147320000&en=51740dae1201c5bd&ei=5087%0A&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>From the article...</p>

<p>"Economic barriers to friendship have come about in part because other barriers have been broken down, sociologists say. College, where people form some of the most intense friendships of their lives, is a melting pot of economic differences. Students from country-club families and those on scholarships are thrown together as roommates, on athletic teams and in classes.</p>

<p>"There has been an incredible expansion of higher education," Professor Conley said. "More people from more varied backgrounds are going to college. There are also more meritocratic admissions among elite institutions." </p>

<p>According to data compiled by Thomas Mortenson, a senior scholar at the Pell Institute in Washington, 42 percent of young adults (age 18 to 24) from the bottom quarter of family income were enrolled in college in 2003, compared with 28 percent in 1970. Enrollment for students from the two middle income quarters also increased. Participation of students from the highest-income families changed the least, with 80 percent attending college in 2003, compared with 74 percent in 1970.</p>

<p>And this...</p>

<p>"The pressure to fit in economically can be especially intense for teenagers and young adults. Marisa Gordon, a 27-year-old account executive at a midsize Manhattan advertising agency, recalled that as a student at Syracuse University, her roommate resented that Ms. Gordon had more spending money than she did. The roommate made comments when Ms. Gordon brought home a pair of Diesel sweatpants and cried because she couldn't afford the same Issey Miyake perfume. </p>

<p>Though she and the roommate are still friendly, Ms. Gordon said money issues contributed to the fact they aren't as close as they once were. Now it is her younger sister, a freshman at Syracuse, who is feeling the sort of competitive pressure Ms. Gordon's roommate felt. The sister recently asked their parents for a Louis Vuitton bag, Ms. Gordon said, because, "Everyone at school has a Louis bag." </p>

<p>I think Syracuse is out. :)</p>

2

<p>We are low middle income- my oldest daughter has always attended private very expensive schools-( the same ones that the scions of Microsoft & Amazon attend)- it hasn't been a big deal.
While they might go to their families home in Italy for the summer, we made sure she always had her own interesting local opportunties , often shared by friends who didn't have homes on the French riveira :)</p>

<p>She attends a college that has a lot of free things to do, funded by the "grey fund" ( an alumni donor)- it is in a city with good public transportation, so few people have cars- the work load is demanding and I have never heard of anyone taking spring break on a beach- they either use the time to relax and explore the surrounding area, or they join one of the many community service projects.
Clothes are not a big deal, they often shop in the "bins" outside the salvation army store.
We have heard however of schools where "presentation" is more important, but we didn't even look at those schools, let alone seriously consider them.</p>

3

<p>This is an issue which concerned me when my son selected an elite college, though he assured me he was already used to the economic pressure from his high school. I told him that at my college I always felt poor. Money became an issue when kids would ditch the dining hall to go out for dinner, or go skiing or to the beach on weekends, travel to Florida for spring break, etc. When I would honestly tell them why I couldn't go, saying "I don't have the money to do that," they always thought I meant that I just didn't have the actual cash on hand at the moment. So then they'd offer to lend me the money but I'd be forced to explain that I wouldn't have the money tomorrow, next week, or next year either! At times that was very humiliating. I don't want my son to go through that, as we're in a similar financial situation as my parents were. But he doesn't think it will bother him.</p>

4

<p>it really comes down to the student.</p>

<p>if the kid is one who is very concerned with wearing the 'right' things at school (and the parent doesnt have the financial resources to buy the kid the 'right' things)... an affluent college can be a dangerous choice. the 'right' things become much, much more expensive.</p>

<p>trade in that american eagle hoodie thats 'cool' at average american high schools for a classic ralph lauren cashmere cable knit sweater... only $397.50.</p>

<p>i go to a very affluent school... and can honestly say that money is only an issue if one chooses to make it one. i cant afford diesel jeans or that sweater... woe is me. i mean... really. not everyone here has them (or similar outrageously expensive items), nor does everyone anywhere. and that goes for the louis bags, too, ugly as they are (and most of which are probably fake).</p>

<p>its just that the perceived 'cool' kids do, the ones who are only 'cool' because you put them on the pedestal because of what they wear. just dont put them on the pedestal in the first place and youre home free.</p>

<p>all that said, i dont know what its like to actually be a poor kid on an affluent campus; im not poor. but if its not going to bother your relatively well dressed, used-car driving kid that the girl across the hall gives her friends $90 belts for their birthdays or that one of your friends shows up every semester with a new mercedes (no joke)... its not going to be a problem.</p>

5

<p>How many "perceived cool kids" are there at Buchnell?</p>

<p>Who pays for expensive nights out when the rich kids and the poor kids get together?</p>

<p>How are the poor kids perceived at Bucknell?</p>

<p>TheGFG, thanks for your story. If your kid says he can handle it, then maybe he can. </p>

<p>I mentored a pretty poor kid (relatively speaking) in a middle to upper middle class area earlier this year and she said her fellow students didn't understand where she was coming from and it did bother her. While the other kids were off having fun, she was working.</p>

6

<p>I think that it does come down to the students and their values and their sense of security about who they are. Two of my closest friends from Harvard had far more money than I did. While I came from a professional family, I was on need-based scholarship and was working during the school year and summer because I really needed the $.</p>

<p>Frankly, I didn't notice the difference between me and one of my friends until I asked her about her Christmas vacation, and she replied that her family had flown to St. Petersburg. I had felt myself lucky to have taken Greyhound to visit my grandmother.</p>

<p>We still are friends more than 30 years later, and she continues to have much more money than I do. The difference doesn't get in the way of our friendship because what brought us together was joint interest, not how much $ we each had.</p>

<p>I didn't actually didn't realize how very much more $ she had until I visited her family home about 6 years after graduation. They lived in a high rise penthouse apartment, doorman, lovely view, place filled with antiques. They took me to some kind of country club to play tennis. </p>

<p>Sometimes the differences in our perspectives are ludicrous. She couldn't imagine why I'd fly to Europe in coach when business class is so much more comfortable. I had to explain to her that I was happy to be able to go to Europe any way that I could. She honestly had never thought of things that way since she'd grown up jetting first to exotic places and staying in luxury hotels. Her perspective was funny to me, and rather sad, too.</p>

<p>I always knew that another of my college friends, a roommate, had more money than me because of the vacations she and her parents went on and because of how comfortable she was charging designer clothes on her parents' credit card. I didn't realize how well of she was until I moved to her hometown about a dozen years after graduating, and was invited to her family's home for "Christmas dinner with a few close friends."</p>

<p>The house ended up being a mansion with an organ in the foyer, which could easily hold at least 20 people. We sang Christmas carols. The few close friends ended up being about 40 people who sat at a long table in their basement, which had stained glass windows. We were served by the family's maid. Afterward, "a few friends" came over for dessert, which we had upstairs. The "few friends" were about 50 more people including the mayor and a state supreme court justice.</p>

<p>My husband, toddler and I were welcomed warmly to the city by all, and I ended up doing quite well professionally and socially during my 7 years living in that city. This was the only time I think that college connections ever paid off for me, though I was never the type of person to make friends for that reason. </p>

<p>It all was very funny, however, because with both friends, I had no idea how well off they were and literally had become friends because of common interests. Our economic disparities had never interferred with our friendships. Our having gone to the same college at the same time was a strong bond.</p>

<p>Re: The article the OP cited: If I had a kid who wanted something like a Louis Vitton bag, I'd tell her to find a way to earn the $ to get it. While designer clothes weren't the "in" thing when I was in college, nice stereos were. When I had the urge to keep up with my more affluent friends, I'd do something like work some weekend temp jobs to earn the extra $ for things that I wanted. Frankly, those things were few and far between because overall, I didn't have friends who were selecting friends based on their material possessions.</p>

7

<p>i went to a small LAC that is sometimes referred to as a "playground for trust fund babies." I was a minority in the fact that my parents arent doctors, lawyers, successful business people, etc, and I didnt have one of my parents credit cards to use on the weekends. i never felt disadvantaged at all compared to my friends, and it was never an issue. if they were all going out to a nice dinner and i didnt have the cash, i would find other people to eat with, no big deal. plus, it was so fun for me to borrow their expensive clothes that i would never buy for myself! i think that if my school was located in the middle of, say, nyc, where everything is so expensive and people dont stay on campus, it would be different. but at a small school where everyone stays on campus, no one is buying $10 drinks all night, and the sense of community is so strong that people are very accepting of people from all backgrounds, including socioeconomic status.</p>

8

<p>I posted this on another thread, but it is relevant here. Often the kids find a way to work things out.</p>

<p>Kids at my S's school, where there are many with $$ as well as those without, easily adapted to the different spending capabilities of different students. Any group that gathers determines the lowest common denominator of what any one person can spend and the entire group then limits themselves to that level of expenditure. It seems to just be part of the culture, and makes it easy for those with less to spend to participate in most social activities.</p>

9

<p>Idad, I can't remember the school. What's the name of the school? I like the way the kids worked things out.</p>

<p>Huskem55, the same question to you.</p>

<p>Northstarmom, I enjoyed reading your post.</p>

10

<p>I don't know what "diesel pants" are.</p>

<p>I ALWAYS felt disadvantaged, and was reminded of it often. My campus job, which I escaped just as soon as I could, had me in a waiter's jacket serving my roommate and others dresssed in their prep school best. They took vacations in France; I couldn't afford road trips. Skiing was required, but there was no fund to buy skis, and the loaners basically labelled us as indigent cripples. Couldn't afford pizza every night (maybe once a week, and retreated to my room to avoid embarrassment - no one (other than those of my own social class) EVER offered to chip in.) The plus is that we poorer folks couldn't afford cars to drive off the mountainous hairpin turn 7 miles from campus. When not in mixed company, racist and sometimes anti-Semitic comments were freely accepted as part of the conversation (this, I think, has changed.) By sophomore year, the majority of folks I knew had chosen roommates and suitemates that, overall, reflected their class experience. And in the classroom, it got pretty tiresome representing the unwashed rabble (I being neither) from New York City.</p>

<p>I think a lot of that has in fact changed. BUT (and this is a big one), my college and, I expect, most prestige colleges are actually LESS diverse than they were 30 years ago (Karabel's data on HYP are pretty definitive on that point.)</p>

11

<p>the answer to your first question is in the eye of the one doing the perceiving. thats the point. its about drawing an arbitrary line based on what people wear or where they go for their vacations. i dont perceive anyone as 'cool' based on what they wear. someone from a very low income background who does care might say its 90% of the student body. as for the number of people who have louis vuitton bags or wear $200 jeans... i dont know... 10%? 20%? certainly not much more than that. youre much more likely to find people wearing things from the gap.</p>

<p>second, im not sure we have any truly expensive nights out, one of the glories of most preppy schools being in the middle of nowhere. maybe an occasional $20 dinner, but $5 wing or pizza nights are far more common. as for who pays, it depends (we love visiting grandparents). but if you truly dont have any money, its something like dinner, and youre willing to ask (and let someone pay for you) youll always be able to go. weekend trips to miami draw funny faces from most... its just not the reality most students live. impromptu road trips with your friends to baltimore for fresh seafood... maybe. all that costs (shellfish aside) is a tank of gas.</p>

<p>on your last question, its hard to answer. there really arent many students who are truly POOR. there are a some (the ones playing the 'cool' game) who probably look down on the poor students, just as in high school. but theyre the minority... and are often among the least liked people on campus. i honestly dont think its an issue for most, but again, its hard to say because there really arent many people who are actually poor outside athletes on the football team. for some perspective, though, my friend pays $3000 per year to attend bucknell. i dont think anybody other than myself has a clue... or cares.</p>

12

<p>idad, the kids at my son's college do exactly as you said. The more affluent kids seem to be sensitive to the needs of the less affluent, and groups choose activities that everyone can afford. </p>

<p>But then, it's a state university, so economic diversity is expected.</p>

<p>Perhaps this is one of the arguments in favor of state university honors colleges rather than pricier LACs.</p>

13

<p>dstark: UChicago</p>

<p>A little story about how I found out about this. I got a call one weekend afternoon from my S who was out with a group of friends. He told me where he was in the city and asked if I could recommend places to eat. I started naming a few, and he interrupted and said he should have mentioned that they had established a $10 outing limit since that is all one student could spend. I was very pleased, and gave directions to Al's Italian Beef, an inexpensive sandwich place (I would take it over a steak anytime, but that is another discussion). I later asked him about this and he relayed to me what was posted.</p>

14

<p>I just remember that I had an acquaintance who really was "truly poor." Came from a very low income part of NYC, went to public schools. I didn't know that she was "truly poor" except we shared a close friend who told me, explaining how the other girl's sometimes irritating sarcasm was based on insecurity.</p>

<p>Anyway, the girl who was poor ended up marrying a millionaire celebrity [not a Harvard grad] whom she met while working an entry level job in the film business. </p>

<p>At our 25th reunion, she was there as was a classmate who works at the Salvation Army and rode Greyhound to the reunion. No one was dripping in diamonds or doing anything else ostentatious. Only one person was bragging about material things (I remember him loudly talking about his sailboat), and he was considered a bore. People were talking about things like their marriages, divorces, kids, dreams, projects and ideas. Lots of people were talking about how nice it was to hang out with people who shared a common college experience at a turbulent time in this country.</p>

<p>I don't think that one can make assumptions about the values of people at high priced schools versus public universities.</p>

<p>At a public university in my town, Louis Vitton bags and expensive cars are owned by lots of students, who come from very well off families and who seem very materially driven. The fees to go Greek, as many students do, are very high. While there also are students who are low income, I think that such students may have a harder time feel comfortable around so much ostentatious wealth than occured at the Ivy league college where I went were brains, ideals and ideas were valued far more than $.</p>

15

<p>My D went to a high-end LAC, but at that school at least, designer clothes were definitely not the style. It's more of a ripped jeans held together by duct tape kind of place. It was also the kind of place where students are hyper aware of money differences, so flaunting or making choices that were out of the range for some of the group would be considered very bad form. She did spend one summer traveling arouond the country (on money she earned) and visited quite a few friends homes. She got an education in how differently other people lived, but none of these students let their affluence show around students at college.</p>

<p>My S sees more of the differences; he has friends who are very, very wealthy, but his closer friends are middle to upper middle class. There was one kid on his floor last year who bought a giant screen TV for the floor lounge, and jetted off to Hawaii on a whim for a weekend, but as far as I know, no one felt intimidated by him. Like his sister, my S is fashion-averse, so if there is some kind of jeans he's supposed to have, he wouldn't know it.</p>

<p>The story about the girl feeling she had to have a Louis V-whatever bag is really sad. I don't even know what that is--my bag is whatever is cheapest at Target. I think that students who get caught up in that kind of one-up-manship really need to stop and figure out why it is important to them.</p>

16

<p>I don't know what diesel pants are either.</p>

<p>Mini, I know you got a lot out of your experience, but I wouldn't want my kids or anybody else's kids to go through the same experience. </p>

<p>I hope things have changed and I believe things have changed; although, the man the Jewish department at Williams a couple of years ago resigned and said he didn't like the atmosphere.</p>

<p>I hope he was talking about the country atmosphere.</p>

<p>EricatBucknell, football players do very well in a social hierarchy. If the poor kids are football players at Bucknell, I can see why there aren't too many social issues at the school. </p>

<p>I don't want to get too off-track but... Bucknell is a great place to go for a sports fanatic, right?</p>

17

<p>I agree with Erica that money becomes an issue only if you choose to make it an issue and with NSM with you have to know yourself and be comfortable in your own skin. </p>

<p>I am also lucky that there is only so much $$ one can spend in Hanover:)</p>

<p>I remember when D was in kindergarten and she told be about one of her friends who was going out to her summer home for the weekend and asked if we had a summer home. I responded to her , yes Chicky, we do have a summer home and the great thing about it is that we get to live in it fall,winter, and spring too.</p>

<p>I have always told my kid to don't let her self get caught up in someone's material posessions because theoretically you can have anything you want for monthly payments On the suface, you don't know who "owns" their stuff out right and who is "making payments" on their stuff. Also you don't know what their stuff is acutally costing them (because you can't always equate wealth in terms of dollars and cents).</p>

<p>I know poor people who hardly have a pot pee in or a window to throw it out, yet their kids are decked out in the latest nikes, jeans, sweat shirts, etc and look down on others who don't have the same. </p>

<p>I know someone who was once driving around in a brand new fully loaded bmw but was living in the projects with no furniture. </p>

<p>I know people who are extremely wealthy and to look at them, they look as you would need to loan them a few $$ until they get on their feet.</p>

<p>I am very fortunate because my child has always been exposed to peopleand has always had friends from both ends of the economic spectrum from a very early age so she is very comfortable around the haves and the have nots. She is not impressed by money so she is not in awe of someone who has it, nor and does knock anyone because they don't have it. I also think growing up in NYC and going to school in the city where you are with all kinds of people has helped to shape her also.</p>

<p>It has not changed who she is and she does not feel pressured to keep up. So while yes, she does attend an "elite school' with people who are not at a loss for money, overall it does not faze her. Money has never been an issue or a reason that she hasn't been able to do whatever she wants.At school she feels that money is not really a big deal and most people she knows do not flaunt their money because the whole concept of "self call" is a bad thing and is often frown upon.</p>

<p>She says that a large group of students are often seen walking around campus in sweat shirts and flipflops and no one is ever really dressed up. My kid is also extremely cheap (she calls it fiscally conservative) so while she does have a bit of fashionsita in her, she is not quick to run out and spend her money on fads. If there is something that she really wants, she saves her money, and really does not believe in paying full price for anything unless she absolutely has to.</p>

<p>Recently I read about an alumni who made a major donation to the school and is having another building named after them. I commented to my daughter about how nice that was. I was floored when she told me, mom, that is ____ dad (because I did not connect the last name with them). I was like nah, you must be kidding as when I met these parents and their kid, they were the nicest most unassuming people you ever want to meet.</p>

<p>I do think that part of going out into the world of work is the fact that you are eventually going to be exposed to different kinds of people from various backgrounds. In the words or Eleanor Roosevelt, no on cam make you feel inferior with out your consent.</p>

18

<p>and a funny story. like most people above, i made my wonderful friends based on common interests. well, every fall during parents weekend several parents volunteer to speak to students about their career paths, difficulties, et cetera. most of them are quite successful, and its always interesting to see what some of your friends parents actually... do. well, one year i started looking down the list of scheduled speakers and stumbled across one who was the ceo of a very well known fortune 500 company. i looked left, wondering his name, and quickly realized he was the father of one of my better friends. a few minutes on google and i learned his net worth was, oh, $400,000,000 (give or take). i had NO clue... and i had gone out on a date with this girl!</p>

<p>the best thing about the really rich kids, something which truly makes some of my friends and i laugh, is how much they all love to take university-sponsored trips to the local organic farm. i always just offer to just take them to my home town where i have friends whose parents would let them do all kinds of exciting stuff with cow manure and tractors, but they never accept.</p>

<p>...</p>

<p>on the football players, yes, i understand that theyre always going to be relatively popular. the reason i mentioned them is because many of them are actually quite poor (bucknell only offers need-based aid for football, so it can only compete with the william and marys and villanovas, which offer scholarhips, for low-income players). there are obviously other truly low income students on campus, but there really arent many. i went to an elementary school where 50% of the students lived below the poverty line. the other schools in my district were better, but when i think of 'poor' i mean poor... their best meal of the day is lunch at school, they dont shower every day because its too expensive... et cetera.</p>

<p>as for the sports scene, i enjoy it! there were scalpers at some of the basketball games this year. we have as many division 1 sports as penn state. and the athletes are actually students! a national merit finalist on your basketball team? what a novel idea!</p>

19

<p>Like others are saying, I don't see this a big deal as long as the student is comfortable with his own situation. I went to a LAC in Michigan, and just about everyone I knew had more resources than I did. My dad was a factory worker, and I was putting myself through college on my own. What mattered was not their economic background but how they regarded that money. If a person flaunted their riches, I wasn't interested in associating with them. But there were plenty of "wealthy kids" who didn't act like that.</p>

<p>My freshman roomate was from a wealthy suburb. Her family lived on investments; neither of the parents worked. That concept was intriguing to me as I couldn't imagine a family existing without someone having a job. Despite this, we were close in temperment, and became best friends, remaining close to this day. There were rare occasions when my relative lack of funds was an issue, but those times were not frequent. </p>

<p>My son will be in a different situation. While I certainly wouldn't call us rich, our family didn't expect fin aid. Within our own community, we live modestly. Plus son's not hung up on clothes or cars, and doesn't like being around people who make a big deal about money. (There were a few like that at his private school, but fortunately not too many.)</p>

<p>He's sent in a deposit to Emory, and I have at least a minor concern that the student body is said to be 'well heeled'. He and I have talked about the fact there are many different students on each campus, and he'll have to find the ones he's comfortable with. </p>

<p>Often, it's not the amount of money a student has or doesn't have. Whatever our personal resources, there's always people with more. Instead, it gets down to a question of values. Whatever my resources, I wouldn't want my son or daughter hanging around with students whose sole goal in life was to sport designer clothes and remind others of their wealth. As long as a student is sure of him or herself, I think they can handle the situation. What's important is to find friends you like, whatever their background. Real friendship can definitely bridge socioeconomic differences.</p>

20

<p>Sometimes it's the richest kids that act like they have no money and the poorer ones that act like they do.</p>