<p>"Mini, I know you got a lot out of your experience, but I wouldn't want my kids or anybody else's kids to go through the same experience. </p>
<p>I hope things have changed and I believe things have changed; although, the man the Jewish department at Williams a couple of years ago resigned and said he didn't like the atmosphere."</p>
<p>Let's just say they've had "continuing problems" (despite the last two Prezs being of the persuasion, which I heartily applaud.) </p>
<p>I do think things have changed - as Karabel notes, the Protestant aristocracy is in serious decline, with money having gained the upper hand over birth. I think the liberal ethos at most prestige college campuses has made overt classist behavior bad form, and the little insults mostly result from lack of knowledge rather than maliciousness or intent. </p>
<p>At the same time, however, in some areas, as I noted in some detail in another forum, these campuses have become increasingly less economically diverse even as the percentage of folks receiving so-called "need-based" aid has increased. </p>
<p>I think this is well-reflected in the "feeder school" studies for the top professional schools (graduate schools are a bastion of relative meritocracy). None of them publish the family income data of students who attend; none of the undergraduate schools publish income data of the students who apply.</p>
<p>Sometimes it's the richest kids that act like they have no money and the poorer ones that act like they do.</p>
<p>um yes
how many nail places are in the "hood"? what about spinny wheels and all the other tricked out things you can do to your car- not cheap.(my d even has a friend who has a diamond in her tooth- lovely- I don't even have a diamond in my wedding band)</p>
<p>I know one family- who is very well off- neither parent works for pay- they just attend family voting meetings, to manage their money.
If the kids didn't eat their dinner they had it for school lunch the next day & they didn't have a housekeeper, because that is what kids were for.Raised nice balanced kids.
BUt I know people who have less than we do, and rack up credit card bills to appear that they are rolling in it.
also make catty comments about people who drive older cars etc.
I have often noticed , that those who are very sensitive about their lack of something, appearance- money- education, are often very fast to notice and comment on the lack of it in others..
I do know what diesel pants are- they also make shoes- my younger D and I are very fashiony- well her more than I - she loves clothes, but will pore over fashion magazines to get ideas for looks with stuff she already has, or from discount shops- she doesn't get fixed on brand names, except for brands that we have found that fit her well.
Older D, could really give a rip, she wears the awfulest clothes- stuff she brought with her from high school, or stuff she found in the lost and found.
She is adorable, but apparently is going through a "real" women don't care about style, that is bowing to the * man* phase. If I say anything, it apparently makes it worse, so I am just pretending I don't notice.</p>
<p>Clueless is correct. It's totally tacky to flaunt money and the kids that do probably are most likely not as well heeled as they'd like you to believe. My parents told me that and I tell my children that and I don't think times change that much generation to generation. Not that we have any money to not flaunt LOL.</p>
<p>It's interesting you'd say this about Williams. My son felt comfortable with the Jewish community at both Amherst and Swat, and ended up applying to Swat. After doing some research and talking with people at Williams, he told me he wasn't interested in applying because something felt "fishy". I never could get more out of him than that, but for some unknown reason (feel or whatever) the school didn't feel right to a fairly observent Jewish kid.</p>
<p>I tend to agree with Huskem55, that is somewhat depends on where the school is located. One of my d's attends an lac in a very remote area. Students at this campus are very close-knit and somewhat restricted by location as to where they can go and spend $$$$. Although my d is certainly not one of the richest students at that school, she is not however one of the poorest. As in life, she has seen those who have much more than her, and of course those who have much less. Nonetheless, they show respect and appreciation for eachother. She,at a tender age will be the first to say that $ does not equate to happiness, and those who flaunt their money are laughed at because their peers realize that in fact it is not the student who is wealthy, but the student's PARENTS. We have always reminded our children that they in fact cannot afford anything, and that it is through US that they receive these gifts.</p>
<p>he,at a tender age will be the first to say that $ does not equate to happiness, and those who flaunt their money are laughed at because their peers realize that in fact it is not the student who is wealthy, but the student's PARENTS</p>
<p>I must say that I agree with the 1st, but to the 2nd, i also know students who were gifted with offshoot companies or branches of their parents companies, when they were quite young- say 21- and that provides them with financial resources of their own,although often parents have a trust that wont go to them until they are old enough to be able to handle it responsibly, even as late as 30 for some kids.</p>
<p>Money may not buy happiness, but it sure makes the gritty details of life a lot easier. Any problem you can solve simply by throwing money at it is a <em>good</em> problem to have, if you've got the money.</p>
<p>Interesting thread. I agree totally with Cami215. I graduated from Smith in 1980 and remember the culture shock I experienced when I arrived on campus as a freshman. I fast realized the most of the girls in my dorm and classes were pretty well off financially compared to my background and many had gone to exclusive prep schools. They wore designer clothes, took fancy vacations and some even had their own cars at school with them. I was lower middle class, a public high school graduate, on scholarship, had accumulating students loans and did my workstudy job in the dorm kitchen washing dishes. In the summers I had a job operating machines in a factory in my hometown to make minimum wage to buy my books and to have some spending money when I returned to college in the fall. There were no Spring Break trips to Bermuda or Florida for me! My parents helped as much as they could but they had three or four children in college or grad school at the same time. </p>
<p>Anyway, I made great friends with girls from all backgrounds. I think if you are grounded enough to realize that wealth and material things are not what matters, you can take advantage of opportunities in college to get to know people with varied and interesting backgrounds. College is one of the few times in life when one has such a golden opportunity to do this. There are always going to be some people who look down on others if they don't have the right clothes or are not from the "right circles" but who wants to be friends with people like that anyway? Also, I never felt at a disadvantage because I had gone to public schools instead of private ones. ( I actually came out of Smith with a Phi Beta Kappa key) It all comes down to one's own academic abilities and motivation to do well in the end. </p>
<p>So, I guess I would say that what happens when rich kids and not-so-rich kids come together really depends on whether the kids are grounded enough to ignore financial disparities and allow themselves to enjoy each other.</p>
<p>Like jdasmom, I was lower middle class, on financial aid when I showed up at Brown. I remember freshman year, during winter break, my roommate got orchestra tickets to "A Chorus Line" on Broadway, and I paid $8 (a fortune to me) to sit in the last row in the balcony. She just couldn't understand why I couldn't get better seats. Many of the people around me were awash in money. It was an education in the rich and famous. Eventually, though, I mainly hung out with people closer to my socio-economic status (most of whom I met working in food services).</p>
<p>On the flip side, was my friend who was practically destitute -- when we went out to dinner one night she ordered a 69 cent salad, saying she "wasn't hungry" when the truth was she had no cash.</p>
<p>One thing I learned is that there is diversity even among the wealthy. Some are snobs who spend money on designer clothing and expensive meals. Others were taught the value of money, and didn't use income to determine who their friends were.</p>
<p>My sense, from the college students I talk to today, is that the chasm has broadened. The rich are richer and the poor are poorer (don't national statistics back that up?). There are fewer middle class students attending elite colleges. Certainly that's a main topic of conversation here when we discuss financial aid, that the middle class is being squeezed out. The result is fewer middle class students on elite campuses -- and I have to believe that affects the social atmosphere. </p>
<p>My own daughter loves to go shopping, but she is cheap and has never ever cared about buying name brands. Plus, we live in Vermont where malls are few and far between, and most people around us are anything but affluent. She has been surprised by the wealth she's seen on college campuses, and the discussions she's overheard about shopping. I am concerned about the culture shock she will encounter, wherever she ends up. Either her values will adjust or she'll have to search for a group of friends like her. Since she's gone to several summer programs surrounded by wealthy kids, and always managed to find her niche, I have to assume she'll do fine.</p>
<p>dstark: i was talking about connecticut college.
im admittedly going to use a generalization here, but i think that at these small schools, the more diverse the student body is, the less the socioeconomic differences come to play. to reiterate what someone said earlier, i never realized how wealthy some of my classmates were until i visited them in their home towns! its not something that is broadcast. i do know that at GW, many people have said that they felt out of place if their jeans cost under $100 and didnt have a purse over $100! i dont even know the names of the expensive jeans, let alone own a pair. again, i think it has to do with the friendly and close sense of community that the campus maintains.</p>
<p>It's interesting to read how different socio-economic classes mingle at various schools. </p>
<p>I've never been to Connecticut College, Bucknell, Williams or some of the other schools mentioned so it is great to read how students interact at these places.</p>
<p>This was an interesting thread. Ours can't afford the American Eagle hoodie! They DO have skis, but that's because we live in a ski town and shop at the thrift store... My dd is at a pretty affluent LAC--she manages. She's chosen to belong to a sorority but pays for her dues herself. She works several jobs... She bought her formal at the second-hand store and the rest of the clothes she borrows. We keep telling her that she's their "diversity" member. Her sorority sisters are always amazed that she works in a hard hat in the summer, building fence. They thought she was a "cutter"--um, no, those would be barbed-wire gashes...</p>
<p>Wow, cool job! What I never understand is, why would it matter if she had an American Eagle hoodie or not? (I understand she doesn't think it does, but so many people do, apparently.)</p>
<p>My daughters Christian College is very diverse economically. Since they have a large endowment they are generous with financial aid and merit aid. My daughter has a close friend and she had no idea how well off she was until she and another friend were invited to go to their summer place on Cape Cod. They left from their house in Conn. drove the friends lexus to the Cape and while there took the sailboat (all 6 slept on-board) to another island for an overnight. My daughter has other international friends at college that can only afford to go home once a year for the summer break. I didn't realize any of that for quite awhile because it's not a matter of any importance to my daughter or her friends. That's just how it is.</p>
<p>"Ours can't afford the American Eagle hoodie!"</p>
<p>What's an American Eagle hoodie? Is it made in the Northern Marianas rather than Macau or Haiti? (Lest you think I'm a country hick, I live in the state capital of a prosperous state. We have no American Eagle, Urban Outfitters, Abercrombie & Fitch, Nordstrom's (we can go up the I-5 for that), Aeropostale. The ritziest store in town is an old Bon Marche that is now a Macy's (great sales on New Year's Day!); we have two Targets, two Mervyn's, Penney's, Marshall's and Ross Outlets, a Sears, a K-Mart, a Fred Meyer, a Gap, and a Victoria's Secret. Lot's of hippie stores, though. We have our own coffee roaster that competes quite successfully with Starbucks.)</p>
<p>ya know mini all those stores you mention have an online presence
& actually online has many greater choices-
we hardly ever go to a mall-too dammed exhausting and you feel like you have to buy something to show for your effort
( All those store you mention have pretty similar clothing- I still like Banana Republic, but I remember when they had a jeep in their entryway- really well made stuff- but now they are more like JCrew)
My D likes American Apparel-( made in Los angeles)- I like REI- but that you can buy online too :)</p>
<p>( so how come Evergreen sells Starbucks?- at least Reed I think has Torefazione* oh thats right-starbucks sucked them up too in 2003* ) :(- my favorite is Cafe D'arte though)</p>
<p>I will say though that I feel like an overwhelming fixation with what someone wears/spends, is different than feeling a need to have some similar things that mark you as part of that culture.</p>
<p>Example- older D really likes her Border Patrol tshirt ( given out to workers at Renn fayre- only cost us $15,000)- it identifies her as part of the group
Ever notice how many NorthFace fleece jackets there are?
Expensive, and often worn by people who usually shop at value village ( but for all I know- that is where they got them) they are well made however, and at Ds school, that identified you as a Seattle high school student
( we got hers on ebay)</p>
<p>I don't remember so much from high school but in middle school, you wore desert boots or Wallabys & levis or "swabby" pants
One kid might have had 5 pairs, while another just had one, but I do think it is important for kids, not to always feel like they stick out because lack of money ( or interest) on the parents end
In college- kids are usually more comfortable with finding their own style, and not feeling like they have to vacation in Marseilles just because their roommate is, but the school atmosphere does matter.
When D was looking at 6-12 schools for instance- she commented that everyone seemed to be wearing some sort of branded sweatshirt. She felt like appearance was more important at that school, and while she had always fit in thanks to clever shopping at thrift stores ( tip- hit up the ones in the really high end neighborhoods), she didn't want that pressure.
I think it is great if people are so independent that a strong consumer ethos doesn't bother them- but would me after a while- and why have that stress?</p>
<p>I like Cafe D-Arte too - we have Batdorf and Bronson. Compared with either, Starbucks is so much burnt toast.</p>
<p>I am a very devoted Value Village customer - I have trouble with the notion of my covering myself with new clothes sewn by sweatshop workers in Honduras or "made in the U.S." by Chinese sex slaves imported to the Northern Marianas (thank you, Tom DeLay).</p>
<p>I recently graduated from Williams, and I never experienced one bit of anti-Semitism. My surname is a fairly Jewish one, so it's not like people didn't know that I was Jewish.</p>
<p>To insinuate that anti-Jewish sentiment at Williams surpasses that of comparable schools is quite ludicrous. The school is practically run by two Jewish administrators. I'm not sure what "recent" incidents Mini is referring to, and I'm also not sure which member of the "jewish department" you were referring to. In fact, I wasn't aware that Williams even had a Jewish department. I knew of a Jewish professor who left the Berkshires because he wanted to raise his children in an orthodox environment, and he also really didn't care for the administration or other faculty. Perhaps he thought that they were anti-Semites? My take on the situation was that the professor was a malcontent who constantly sought excuses for why people distanced themselves from him.</p>
<p>As Mini will point out, Williams has issues with which they are wrestling (as do many other colleges). They conduct quite a few surveys, and make the results public- something that very few other colleges do. These data are fodder for the Minis of the world who have very clear agendas. Feel free to PM me if you would like a different, non-biased perspective of the school. I'd be happy to discuss the positives and the negatives.</p>
<p>Hmmph, that last paragraph was quite off topic.</p>
<p>Architecture school is populated by the upper middle class, with large population of Catholics. Most have been able to maintain that lifestyle.</p>
<p>My parents were much richer than the allowance they gave me in college. I always felt 'cash poor' on campus, espeically compared to the blonde blondes in my dorm, the ones with the Louis Vuitton steamer trunks and red convertible mercs. Living with those women was my first experience of the Obvious Super Rich but I had my first association with the Working Poor when I worked in factories and ice cream shops in the poorer section of town. </p>
<p>In my current life, I have a huge range of friends, from semi-billionaires (clients or former clients) to schizophrenics living on the dole.</p>
<p>When I went to college, I was the first in my family to go. My parents were divorced and my mom was less than solvent. I had a ton of financial aid, and worked many hours all the way through school. I didn't even have a driver's license...we didn't have a car so what was the point? My roommate, otoh, came from a wealthy suburb. She had a nice new car from her freshman year on. To be honest, I never even considered her wealth nor did I really understand the extent of it (the family owned a prosperous business and were more than solvent) until WELL after I graduated from college. Family finances were simply not a subject we needed to discuss. We were friends, plain and simple, and we keep in touch to this day. My son tells me that he knows nothing about the personal finances of his classmates and friends...as he put it...it's none of his business, and not a subject they need to discuss.</p>