What if your stage crew child doesn't take algebra 2/trig? or physics?

Parent Cafe
41

Even though I have one math and science kid who would prefer never to read another book as long as she lives, and one artsy/theater/history kid who can barely add and subtract (but did take and get a B in Alg 2), I agree with colleges requiring a well rounded kid upon admissions and to get a diploma. When the world sees that diploma with a BA, it should mean that the student has a college level education. My engineering daughter has to take a few English courses, a few econ or history courses. She doesn’t do as well in them. My non-math daughter had ACT scores a lot more dramatic than OP’s, a 13 in math the first time and a 30 in English.

But I do not think the school should change the rules for her. If she gets a diploma, it shouldn’t have an asterisk on it that says “But she still can’t add.”

42

I hope to try to address everyone and thank you all.

My son is planning to retake the ACT in September. He is working with a tutor, who teaches math at a local college. The strategy we are using is to try to maximize his points in geometry, since he likes that math the most, then to do review work on algebra and finally move on to alg 2/trig, where the goal is just to teach him enough to be able to try to guess at some of the answers.

I don’t know how many hours at theater he could cut and still be active enough in it. He is also actively working on merit badges and will soon be starting an eagle scout project.

I really wish that the GC had explained to me that he might not even be able to get into Purchase or Oneonta without alg 2/trig. All he said was that he should take it as his third math credit but that there were alternatives. Why offer alternatives if colleges don’t accept them? How is that fair or right? I really thought that I was doing the right thing for him in terms of self-esteem and mental health and his future financial ability by having him take accounting. I might have done differently had I realized accounting would be essentially an elective and not a required college prereq. I knew that schools like Binghamton and Stony Brook were out of the question (probably even if he had taken the class) but I might have done differently had I known this problem would arise. I have no problem with him taking a college math class to fulfill gen eds since he could take algebra 1. I am hoping that he gets some of his college science out of the way with APES, but as Sylvan suggests, he can take an earth science or the like if he needs another science. If there was a non-math conceptual physics class, he could do that, too, As I said, he liked physics but couldn’t handle the math.

I will look into Wright State but I am not sure how far away my son wants to be from home. Plus, our finances might preclude it. I can swing a basic SUNY education for him but really don’t have much beyond that. I still have one son upstate, who may graduate in either August or December of next year and another who is at community college and not sure how much farther he wants to go after that. I am paying for them as well.

At this point, we are going to continue the ACT tutoring. He is going to visit Purchase and Pace and, if he likes them, I will contact the schools and see if he could be accepted without alg 2. If there is no way, I will have to face him, admit that I was incorrect about it and force him to take it. I am looking at Pace because if he gets enough money and agrees to live at home, we could swing it.

Thanks again.

43

We’re NYS residents with a 17-year-old who has dyslexia, dysgraphia, and dyscalculia. We homeschool because the public school doesn’t have the resources kids like this need, but we face similar issues. Our kids are trying to gain mastery of a subject while trying to figure out how they learn best. That’s a tall order. I think it’s important that we help them set priorities.

You can’t change the past, but you can change your path going forward. It’s unrealistic to expect that colleges will make allowances for your son because he took a less rigorous course load. Why should they relax their standards? If we choose a less rigorous course load for our kids, we have to adjust our expectations for the colleges they can attend. If you’re not willing to do that, you need to encourage him to take a more rigorous course load.

I think part of the reason people think kids like ours aren’t as smart as other students is because many shy away from challenging subjects. I think that’s a mistake. I’d prefer my daughter take trig and physics and get a C than take a less rigorous course and get a B, but you have to do what works for your family.

It’s a choice to let your son invest his time in theater and Scouting when doing so will have a direct affect on his college admissions. We were actually faced with the same decision (theater group + Scouts + year round swim team). We curtailed theater and Scouts, and switched to the summer swim league until our daughter could handle her academics. Then we added back outside activities. The reality is that our kids can’t always do as much as their friends if they want to excel in school. Something has to give. If your choice is that theater and Scouting are your priorities, then you may have to adjust his college list to reflect that.

44

if i had to guess, it isnt the dyscalculia thats his stumbling block in math, its the dyslexia. common core is ridiculously heavy on reading/comprehension skills.

since he has a tutor, maybe its possible to focus on the old-style skills so that he has a basic understanding (which still may be tough, but at least you are only trying to overcome one LD, not both). i’d think if it tutor is a prof at the college level that they still pretty much teach math, so it shouldnt be a stretch to work on it.

but i think you might be happy to note this: https://www.purchase.edu/sharedMedia/Academics/GenEd-BeforeF2011-BFA-MusB.pdf

The BFA and MusB programs have been granted exemptions from these two SUNY requirements:

1.Mathematics

2.Foreign Languages

therefore, just figure out what he needs to be admitted, and worry about the rest later
:wink:

45

I have to agree with @austinmshauri. If this were my kid, the boy scout badges would take a back seat to learning algebra2. Even many kids who are not disabled have to drop activities they value in order to prioritize academics. What is he doing this summer? Considering his situation, my number one priority for him this summer would be to work hard on algebra2. By the end of the summer, you should have some idea whether he has a hope of passing the class.

I would also suggest that often people who are advanced in math are not actually the best teachers. Because they have a good intuition for the material, it can be difficult to assist a student for whom the explanations and methods that worked for them clearly aren’t sufficient. This is so hard for him to learn not because the material is that hard but because he apparently needs to approach it in ways that other students don’t find necessary in order to learn it. I would be searching for someone who has experience teaching kids with LDs. As long as they understand algebra2, it doesn’t matter if they weren’t a college math major.

46

@kac425, Those are graduation requirements, not admission requirements. From the SUNY Purchase website:

(See https://www.purchase.edu/Departments/Admissions/criteria/admissionscriteria.aspx for further information).

47

i know. i thought i made that kind of clear with the last statement about figuring out what he needs to be admitted. maybe i wasnt as clear as i thought.

she needs to determine what the third qualifying higher level math class would be in this instance he passed alg1&geometry and/or if this is a case of exceptions may be made (and the answer is probably if there is a documented disability).

i’m sure a phone call or two could answer the questions.

48

In addition to these requirements being for students who are already enrolled at Purchase, what you posted no longer meets the core requirements.

the current Core Curriculum Requirements: All Undergraduate Degree Programs (BA, BS, BFA, and MusB)

can be found at

https://www.purchase.edu/Departments/AcademicPrograms/CoreCurriculum/newgenedrequirements.aspx

Student learning outcomes in math are as follows:

49

It’s perhaps a bit disingenuous to keep referring to Alg.II/Trig as “higher math”. I think they are considered basic math subjects these days. I hated math and chose a dumbed down class called “Senior Math” (it did have some Trig) for my last year of high school, but I did have to complete Alg. II junior year to be considered in a “college prep” curriculum, and that was eons ago. Fast forward, and my math-phobic D had to take pre-calc and calculus in high school to qualify for the kinds of colleges she wanted to attend. That’s just the way it is now.

I’m not surprised that an accounting class wouldn’t satisfy any college’s math expectations. OP’s school likely offers accounting as a math alternative for those kids who aren’t heading to 4-year institutions.

I think having both dyscalculia and dyslexia will make college a huge challenge for OP’s son, with a serious risk of failure, regardless of his major. College isn’t for everyone, nor necessary for everyone. At the risk of offending OP, I will suggest that her son table college plans for now and pursue his theater tech interests by interning with a local theater company and perhaps attending a vocational school to learn carpentry or electrical, or whatever his tech interest entails, while auditing some theater classes at a local college, if available. I know of at least one kid who became highly experienced in theater tech through working with his school’s productions and those at the local community theater. He enrolled in a highly regarded college to major in tech–and dropped out sophomore year because he had no appetite for the other required classes. He could have handled them, but had no desire to pursue studies outside of his chosen specialty and wouldn’t put in the time and effort to succeed at them. I don’t know if OP’s son feels the same way, but it’s a factor to consider, especially since, in light of his disabilities, he will have to work twice as hard as everyone else to pass his academic classes even with the disability services provided by the college.

50

“I think having both dyscalculia and dyslexia will make college a huge challenge for OP’s son, with a serious risk of failure, regardless of his major”

I assume you mean because of the combination of these two and know that the inability to do anything other than low level math (and even then often conflating numbers), while at the same time having no issues with reading/ writing, would have no effect on the ability to be successful at even the most elite colleges in many, many majors.

51

Some high schools offer statistics course.

  • Does your HS offer that?
  • If not, could he take it at CUNY College Now?
  • Could this count as a higher math for Suny Purchase from their POV?
  • If not statistics, could he take "math for college" course which is a lower level college-level math course offered at CUNYs? Here's BMCCs math offerings. Do any look doable? I remember when my mom was avoiding her math requirement in college, she found out that a logic course counted as math. Maybe a decision-making course in a business dept at a CUNY could also count as a 3rd year of math? http://www.bmcc.cuny.edu/math/courses.jsp

I think that it’s true as one poster said that there will be lots of kids from your son’s HS if it’s one of the many arts high schools in the City who are looking at SUNY Purchase and your other HSs. That will make entry possibly difficult. However, much can be overcome in interviews and relationship-building compared with other students. Building relationships with Admissions officers is helpful. They do not want to accept Amazing Applicant X if they feel that person is using Purchase as a safety school. They may take a chance on your lovely son becuase he’s keen on going. The convo can begin with: We think this is the best school. My son has LD issues. What do you usually advise? How can we make this work?

Is Sarah Lawrence off the table? They are desperate for boys to attend and maybe their FA won’t be abyssal (I say thinking: actually it will be abysmal. Who am I kidding?) I’m an eternal optimist and feel like you never know until you try. SL does have a big heart and might see a way forward with you. I’m going to type around and see if there are any other schools with less of a math requirement and a theater tech dept. just a sec.

52

It would depend on the college now partner. Hunter is our college now partner and they only offer one math course for high school students; Everyday Math, which does not fulfill the higher level math requirement

http://www.hunter.cuny.edu/college-now/Fall-2016-college-now-application-packet

BMCC college now offerings

http://www.bmcc.cuny.edu/collegenow/page.jsp?pid=1002&n=College%20Now%20Classes

Also the deadline has passed for Fall 2016 college now.

53

My daughter just graduated NYU as a studio art major. She was accepted even though she dropped math entirely junior year (it was either that or fail pre-calculus). She picked up math again as a senior, but took College Algebra, which was a lower level class.

She also did not take physics, but took honors bio, chem, anatomy and physiology and AP bio. Her grades were in the mid 80’s in science and math throughout high school. Her strength was in humanities and social sciences. But mostly she was a choir, theatre and art student with great leadership and EC’s. Her GPA was a 90.14.

Not only did she get accepted into NYU, but she was placed in their scholars program (in Steinhardt.)

Yes, she did apply ED, but supposedly that does not give much of a bump at NYU. She also was accepted to SUNY New Palz before she withdrew her applications.

I think your son can do fine.

54

@uskoolfish

Your daughter satisfied that math requirement.

The OP’s son is hoping not to have to satisfy a required math course for admissions.

55

Why would you think that? People with these issues are in all kinds of fields. They can be scientists, doctors, lawyers, or anything else they want. Dyslexics, et al, have the same range of intelligence as the rest of the population. They can be quite brilliant. They interpret statements like “college isn’t for everyone” as “you’re not smart enough for it,” and they consider that an insult.

56

To,the OP…how extensive is your son’s technical theater experience? At some colleges, this could be the tipping factor. Has he done only HS performances…or has he done civic theater, or some regional theater?

57

OP, I wouldn’t assume that what you read on the general admissions sections of college websites applies to B.F.A.'s. Your post inspired me to email a school my DS is looking at that clearly specifies 3 years of “foreign language”, to ask whether ASL (an American language so technically no more foreign than Navajo) qualified. The school replied that for their B.F.A. programs no language is required, and that it isn’t taken into account as part of the admissions decisions for B.F.A. candidates.

I didn’t ask about Algebra 2, because I think my son will make it through that, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the same thing applied to math. I know the same university has math classes specifically for arts majors that focus on things like the geometry of tessellations.

In this, there may be a difference depending on whether students who are admitted to a pre-professional program in the arts are also admitted into the school as a whole.

58

In contrast, I would say that a kid who has overcome what this young man has overcome, as evidenced by solid academic scores and G.P.A., and who knows himself well enough to pick a challenging but high demand field that is well suited to his strengths and weaknesses, is better prepared for college than most American youth.

59

In no particular order, I will try to address everyone’s comments, all of which I appreciate and many of which have had me googling or clicking links.

The only stats course offered at our HS is AP stats. He originally wanted to major in psych but the stats and research requirements in most programs are daunting for a kid like him, so he will probably minor in it or just take a few classes. He isn’t at an arts HS, he is at our local high school that offers no theater tech classes. He’s done school theater since grade 6 and a couple of summer programs, but I work full time and don’t have the ability or the finances to send him to theater camp or to do regional theater.

My understanding is that he does have to demonstrate math fluency at Purchase to graduate but I can’t find anything on their website that explains how they judge it. For instance, at our local CC, a math ACT score above 19 exempts you from remediation. If he likes the school when he visits this week, I will contact the admissions office and the office of disabilities and discuss his situation with them. I don’t want to waste their time unless he actually decides he wants to apply there.

I think that he is capable of going to college. I understand that it isn’t for everyone. My eldest, he of the profoundly gifted IQ and mild Aspie tendencies, hated it and quit. He loves his job as a mailman and now plans to return to school because he wants to become a postal inspector. My theater tech son earned 98’s on both history regents and 94’s on bio and earth science. His math and chem scores were lower, obviously, and the dyslexia showed in his english regents score, which was a 74. On his own, he decided to go to summer school and retake the english exam - 6 points higher and he can get a basic regents with honors distinction. It is really only in math heavy subjects that he struggles (plus FL). Could he go to med school or be an engineer - I don’t think so and, luckily, he has no desires in those areas. Could he be a great theater tech person - yes and I just find it bizarre that a math class could keep him from his dream.

Over this summer, he is doing ACT prep and tutoring. The man he is working with has a very good grasp on my son’s issues and has been working with him since 9th grade. He wouldn’t have passed CC algebra and geometry without him. To the poster who says that much of his issue may be with the verbosity of the CC math curriculum - I agree. He earned a B+ in old fashioned pre-algebra and one of his complaints is that CC math is too wordy. I regret not pushing him into the advanced math in 8th grade - had I known how awful CC is for him, I would have signed the waiver to let him do honors, even if he wound up with a D. He is also doing tech and stage crew for a local student production, learning to drive and helping his dad redo the kitchen (this is a skill that will help him with tech builds!) His merit badge work isn’t particularly time consuming at this level and his project is going to be something he will design and build, so that should help with his tech applications. He won’t give up scouting and, in all honesty, most admissions people I have spoken with at various college fairs think very highly of those young men who earn Eagle. He is also earning spending money by taking care of people’s gardens while they are on vacation.

You have given me much to think about. I have decided to have him tour some other local programs, Pace, Hofstra, Brooklyn and then hit him with the fact that he might have to take algebra 2. I am kind of peeved at the fact that an alternative math class offered by the school, which is controlled by the Board of Regents, isn’t accepted for admission at a SUNY, which is also controlled by the Regents.

I dread speaking with my son about this. I promised him no more math after last year and the fact that I might have to renege on this hurts me. I also hate that I may have to spend almost a full year’s SUNY tuition on tutoring if he takes it.

60

A couple more thoughts:

Has your son investigated any relevant stage union apprenticeship programs? I expect that there are multiple options in your area. In addition to the BA/BFA options, Happykid looked at joining the IATSE local right out of high school (and working her way up on the job), and enrolling in the IATSE local’s formal apprenticeship program that is offered through one of the local community colleges and that yields at least some transferable college credits.

How good are the Theater Tech/Design programs at the community colleges near you? Are some better than others? In particular, check out the variety of performances offered each year, and the summer theater options. Happykid and her CC Tech/Design pals all held paid internships for at least one college summer with the Summer Dinner Theater program at her CC. Yup, college credit, hard, cold cash, and strong mentoring that has led to excellent professional contacts in the local theater scene. Happykid arrived at her transfer-to university well-prepared to take advantage of the last two years there.