What is heaven?

College Confidential Community
41

<p>Those are valid questions. Sorry I didn't explain more. As a Christian, I grew up with all the stories and doctrine, and I tend to think everyone else knows it as well, even if they don't believe in it.</p>

<p>Anyway, Christians believe that God created humans to be perfect. Adam and Eve were thus originally perfect, without sin. This means they were in really close communion with God, so in a sense it was literally heaven on earth. But then they ate the fruit that God had expressly forbidden them to eat, and sin entered the world. Every human thereafter has sinned (Romans 3:23). Because of that sin, all the imperfect things in this world (suffering, death, poverty, pain, etc.) came as a consequence. Some ask why God didn't create humans so they couldn't turn against him and sin. But that's the whole concept of free will. Basically, if God made it so that we had to love him (and would thus all go to heaven), we would be nothing more than robots. How much does it mean if someone loves you, when they are basically forced to do so?</p>

<p>To Christians, the punishment for sin is death (both literally, and figuratively - meaning Hell). However, if an innocent is sacrificed, he can take the punishment of that sin (like a scapegoat). That was the principal used for animal sacrifices in biblical times, which is how people before Jesus' time could go to heaven, as long as they had faith in God. However, they were still separated from God, as they had to repeatedly offer up sacrifices to stay "pure".</p>

<p>But God loved the world, and didn't want this separation between himself and us. Not that we deserve this love, as sin is basically turning your back on God and his commands. But "God demonstrated His love for us in this: while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) Christ Jesus, God's son, abolished the need for animal sacrifices. (Thus why he's often referred to as the sacrificial lamb in the Bible.) Christians believe that He is perfect, and so when he died, his sacrifice took the punishment of all the sin in the world. It's like what Aslan did for Edmund in the Chronicles of Narnia (pardon the reference, I just watched the movie), only Christ took the punishment for everyone in the world as the Ultimate Sacrifice. </p>

<p>Thus, though we don't deserve it, we are given salvation and eternal life (meaning we go to heaven). All that's necessary is that we as humans receive that gift. In other words, we must believe in what Christ did (Romans 10:9-10). Christians believe in that, and therefore Christ's sacrifice atones for their sins and they are seen as perfect in God's eyes. Non-Christians do not believe that, and thus are still imperfect and unable to go to Heaven.</p>

<p>I hope that made sense, and wasn't too long...</p>

<p>Oh, and out of curiosity, what do you mean by "what happened in the Garden of Gethsemene"?</p>

42

<p>I, too, have been brought up in a Christian household, but I have forgotten some of the nuances of the stories and doctrines of Christianity.</p>

<p>What I meant by "what happened in the Garden of Gethsemane" was this:</p>

<p>Matthew 26 (NIV)
39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
How can a perfect being doubt their cause?</p>

43

<p>Jesus wasn't doubting their cause, though no doubt he was tempted to get up and walk away. (Remember, as well as being fully God, he was also fully human, and thus could be tempted, though he never sinned). So if he wasn't doubting their cause, what did he mean when he said "may this cup be taken from me"? I believe he was dreading what was to come - not just physical torture, but separation from God as he took on the world's sin and became a sinner that way - and was wondering if there might be some other way to advance their cause. Of course, he knew the answer to that question was no, but his question just shows the torment he was going through.</p>

<p>Yet through it all, he never sinned. He remained completely obedient and submissive to God and to their "cause." This is shown by his position of submission ("fell with his face to the ground") and by the way he phrases his question ("if it is possible"). Technically, it is still definitely possible for the cup to be taken from him, if he were to sin and walk away from their cause. But since Jesus is God and cannot sin, that would not be possible for him. So why ask if it was possible for him not to die? As I mentioned earlier, he's asking if it was possible if there was a way to advance their cause some other way. However, if this is the only way, he's willing to do it. His final statement makes this clear, and shows his ultimate obedience ("Yet not as I will, but as you will"). </p>

<p>So to apply that to a Christian's life: though it is necessary to obey God's will, it is not a sin if we naturally recoil from doing whatever is required of us, and to question God as to whether that course of action is necessary or not, as long as we remain submissive and willing to carry out God's plan even if another way is not revealed to us.</p>

44

<p>You will only go to hell if you want to, any religion. Heaven is the perfect place for you.</p>

45

<p>"...the punishment for sin is death (both literally, and figuratively - meaning Hell). However, if an innocent is sacrificed, he can take the punishment of that sin (like a scapegoat). That was the principal used for animal sacrifices in biblical times, which is how people before Jesus' time could go to heaven, as long as they had faith in God. However, they were still separated from God, as they had to repeatedly offer up sacrifices to stay "pure".</p>

<p>But God loved the world, and didn't want this separation between himself and us. Not that we deserve this love, as sin is basically turning your back on God and his commands. But "God demonstrated His love for us in this: while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) Christ Jesus, God's son, abolished the need for animal sacrifices. (Thus why he's often referred to as the sacrificial lamb in the Bible.) Christians believe that He is perfect, and so when he died, his sacrifice took the punishment of all the sin in the world. It's like what Aslan did for Edmund in the Chronicles of Narnia (pardon the reference, I just watched the movie), only Christ took the punishment for everyone in the world as the Ultimate Sacrifice.</p>

<p>Thus, though we don't deserve it, we are given salvation and eternal life (meaning we go to heaven). All that's necessary is that we as humans receive that gift. In other words, we must believe in what Christ did (Romans 10:9-10). Christians believe in that, and therefore Christ's sacrifice atones for their sins and they are seen as perfect in God's eyes. Non-Christians do not believe that, and thus are still imperfect and unable to go to Heaven.</p>

<p>I hope that made sense, and wasn't too long..."</p>

<p>Actually, no offense to you for your beliefs, but no, it's doesn't make any sense at all. I cannot fathom why a Being capable of creating the universe would come up with such an illogical plan. And, be so callous and cruel to condemn most of his creation to eternal suffering. It sound elitist and...quite frankly, ridiculous. Think about it: A being who has existed for billions and billions of years would be bothered by a few hours of physical suffering? Not to demean in any way what Jesus endured - it WAS horrible - but it wasn't really any worse than what many mere mortals have suffered. In fact, MANY humans have endured much worse suffering and for far longer lengths of time. Why would him suffering for a few hours and dying a martyr (again, something that has happened to MANY humans) be this magical thing that poof, makes all the people who believe it live forever in bliss? </p>

<p>It's nuts. I think reincarnation is much more logical - EACH of us must GROW to perfection (over many lifetimes if necessary) and when we are ready, we experience blissful union with our Creator. It's a much more merciful doctrine because it does not condemn people who weren't smart enough or lucky enough to pick the 'best' religion. It allows for believe in a LOVING God, not a 'god' who spitefully casts aside those of his creation who were peaceful, loving Buddhists. Why anyone would want to spend eternity with such a god as is described by the old testament (which was written by HUMANS, I might add) is beyond me.</p>

<p>I much prefer to believe in a God who is just, merciful, and, most importantly, LOVING. Not one who is bigoted. Because, sorry, but it is the epitome of bigotry to cast out those who don't choose to believe a certain way. </p>

<p>Sorry, no offense intended. I just cannot understand the Christian view. That's why I no longer consider myself a Christian. (I have a strong spiritual faith, and I pray to God, but it is not bible-based.)</p>

46

<p>I've tried to explain how a loving God can allow people to go to hell, but apparently I'm not doing a very good job. Ugh, I'm never good at putting ideas into words and it doesn't help that I haven't studied that aspect of theology as much as some. I guess the main thing is that God is love, but that's not all that he is. He's also perfectly holy and righteous and just, and he can't compromise any of those aspects of himself. But I'm not sure what else I can say, so I think we're going to have to agree to disagree for now.</p>

<p>Here's one more thing I wanted to address, though:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Think about it: A being who has existed for billions and billions of years would be bothered by a few hours of physical suffering? Not to demean in any way what Jesus endured - it WAS horrible - but it wasn't really any worse than what many mere mortals have suffered. In fact, MANY humans have endured much worse suffering and for far longer lengths of time.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Jesus' suffering was more than physical pain. Actually, the physical pain was a VERY small part of it. The main thing he dreaded was taking on the weight of the sins of the world. In other words, he became the sinner, by taking the punishment of our sins (which is more spiritual than physical) on his shoulders. The guilt of sin on someone perfect would be heavy enough, but also, when he became sin, he became separated from God. (Sin, as I mentioned earlier, separates one from a perfect God). This is why he cries out at the cross, "My God, why have you forsaken Me?" It is as if someone who you were very close with all the time turned away from you in disgust, only times one million because the unity between the Father and the Son was infinitely more close than any human relationships. That might not make sense to non-Christians, however, and it's not an essential part of the Christian doctrine. (The part below this, though, is.)</p>

<p>
[quote]
Why would him suffering for a few hours and dying a martyr (again, something that has happened to MANY humans) be this magical thing that poof, makes all the people who believe it live forever in bliss?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It is true that others have suffered physically worse. But Jesus was not just any martyr, though that's how non-Christians see him. To Christians, he was perfect, because he was God. Moreover, he died expressly to take the punishment for the sins of the world. None of the other martyrs can truthfully make those claims. It was the slaughter of an innocent victim (like an innocent lamb in biblical times), who took the punishment for the sins of the world. (Once again, think of what Aslan did for Edmund in Narnia). And in fact, not only did Jesus die, but Christians believe that after three days he came back to life, and thus conquered death (both literally, and in the spiritual sense that he saved us from Hell and closed the separation between us and God). </p>

<p>*Note: I'm not trying to convert anyone. Nothing I can say can do that. In fact, if you're coming from a very different worldview, I doubt I can make any of this make sense to you. But I am trying to explain my beliefs the best I'm able (which unfortunately isn't as well as I'd like).</p>

47

<p>Thanks for your explanation. You're actually doing fine!</p>

<p>I should clarify here that I actually was brought up Catholic, and then was a born-again Christian for several years. So I am completely versed in the Christian worldview. I just no longer accept it as truth.</p>

<p>I think Jesus was special in the sense that he was an example of PERFECT LOVE. He also had a very important role to play because he showed that the physical body is not all that there is. I think his mission was to demonstrate what God wants us to aspire to. It is in that aspiring that we become closer to God thru time, not thru some momentary proclamation of a certain belief.</p>

<p>The part I disagree with is the whole 'punishment for sins' thing. That's not loving, plain and simple. Punishment accomplishes nothing. Loving discipline, otoh, serves the purpose of TEACHING the person to do better.</p>

<p>So, I believe that God does not seek to punish his creation, but instead seeks to TEACH us. That is better accomplished thru life lessons than some arbitrary rule that only those who believe a certain thing about Jesus get to go to heaven. </p>

<p>The reason I have a problem with that is because by that definition, many beautiful people who happen to be Buddhists or Pagans or whatever would suffer forever. That is simply not loving. Nor is it righteous, because it is elistist and we all know that bigots are not righteous. And nor is it just, because they didn't do anything any worse than make the normal human mistakes that we all make. There is simply nothing righteous about condemning someone to suffer forEVER. I find the whole idea despicable. I couldn't do it, so how could God? Surely God has more love and compassion that I, a mere human, have.</p>

<p>Why in the world does simply 'believing that Jesus died for our sins' and 'accepting his sacrifice' give Christians a free ticket to eternal paradise, while others who thought they were doing the right thing by following the religion or beliefs they felt were right for them, must suffer eternally for doing something they thought was right? Why would a Buddhist or Hindu who meditates daily for world peace and gives freely of himself on a daily basis, and prays earnestly to the Cosmic Creator be penallized? Sorry, but I find the idea ludicrous.</p>

<p>I think God has a lot more compassion than Christians give him credit for. The Christian 'god' is not very compassionate at all. If he were, no way could he condemn good people just because they aren't Christians.</p>

<p>The thing is, all of this doctrine about sin and salvation was created by HUMANS purporting to be channeling what God supposedly told them. It was HUMANS who decided this, for political reasons.</p>

<p>I think there is a tremendous amount of good in the bible, and I think Jesus was an awesome avatar, and I most definitely pray to God on a daily basis. It's the blind obedience to other humans' interpretation of a book written by still more humans that I disagree with.</p>

<p>Just my opinion. It's ok if we agree to disagree.</p>

48

<p>heaven doesn't exist. neither does hell. i think that when you die, you die. nothing else to it.</p>

<p>btw, i get in a lot of trouble when i say stuff like this cuz my parents are very religous</p>

49

<p>^Doesnt that make life seem kind of depressing or meaningless?</p>

50

<p>just live life to its fullest. thats my motto.</p>

51

<p>
[quote]
heaven doesn't exist. neither does hell. i think that when you die, you die. nothing else to it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>While I happen to disagree with you that there is nothing when you die, I am unconcerned about what you believe, because, if you are wrong, you will surely find out! (And be pleasantly surprised to find that you still exist!)</p>

<p>
[quote]
just live life to its fullest. thats my motto.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think that sounds like a fine motto as long as you don't hurt anyone else in your quest for a full life.</p>

52

<p>lealdragon - I understand where you're coming from, though I see it differently. So yeah, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. :) Thanks for saying I'm doing fine with expressing my ideas. That's always been hard for me. I'm definitely not a writer!</p>

53

<p>Agreed! Best wishes, and maybe we'll see each other in 'heaven' some day. And, perhaps be surprised as to who is there. <wink></wink></p>

54

<p>When I was little, I had no trouble with the fact that I was going to die. Now, I have a lot of trouble with it since I question what will happen afterwards and worry about whether I'll get to do everything I want to in my lifetime. Sort of funny how that reverses.</p>

55

<p>Heaven is the best imaginary place in the world.</p>

56

<p>read "the five people you meet in heaven"</p>

57

<p>Also read some of the many books on reincarnation stories (people who remember details of past lives and they turn out to be uncannily true).</p>

<p>This is the best, imo:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Many-Mansions-Edgar-Reincarnation-Signet/dp/0451168178/sr=1-1/qid=1169091561/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-5970522-5421614?ie=UTF8&s=books%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.amazon.com/Many-Mansions-Edgar-Reincarnation-Signet/dp/0451168178/sr=1-1/qid=1169091561/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-5970522-5421614?ie=UTF8&s=books&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>There are lots of others:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/002-5970522-5421614?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=reincarnation+case&Go.x=9&Go.y=12&Go=Go%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/002-5970522-5421614?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=reincarnation+case&Go.x=9&Go.y=12&Go=Go&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>And before someone accuses me of not having 'proof' of reincarnation: Reincarnation is not something that can be proven. There is, however, much data to suggest and support a belief in reincarnation.</p>

<p>Read about near-death experiences, too.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/002-5970522-5421614?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=near-death&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/002-5970522-5421614?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=near-death&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

58

<p>Oh, near-death experiences are cool to read about. I went through a whole paranormal phase a few years ago and spent a lot of time learning about those.</p>

59

<p>I've been in a paranormal phase for the last 25 years, ha.</p>

<p>Anything you'd like to share with us?</p>

60

<p>
[quote]
Oh, near-death experiences are cool to read about. I went through a whole paranormal phase a few years ago and spent a lot of time learning about those.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How do you know the people who say they see something are telling the truth? </p>

<p>The only reason I don't believe in God is because, obviously, there has been no actual evidence. A magical being with superpowers who created us out of nothing just doesn't appeal to me over the simple logic of evolution.</p>

<p>I don't need to believe in a magical superbeing to have faith.</p>