What is the Greatest Ancient Civilization? (part II)

<p><by skeam=""></by></p>

<p>Though I did delineate that the choices will be ancient, I will add two Middle-Age empires just to widen the range of choices. </p>

<p>I was hoping to do a poll but since that opportunity is not open, I will simply list the choices:</p>

<p>~Rome --------- 11 (31.4%)
~Greece --------10 (28.6)
~India -----------6 (17.1)
~China ---------- 4 (11.4)
~Egypt ----------2 (5.7)
~Persia ----------1 (2.9)
~Mongol Empire---1 (2.9)
~Mesopotamia --- 0
~Mayan Empire ---0
~Arab Empire -----0</p>

<p>Voters: 35</p>

<p>We are judging by art, science, overall contribution (none scientific), and overall power.</p>

<p>To keep it organized, I suggest you put your choice at the top of your reply, and then (if you wish) write an explanation of why under it. If you're lazy or tired, just write one word.</p>

<p>Take the poll and participate in discussions! The deletion of previous thread, though killed many great posts, gave us the chance to start the new peaceful and constructive discussion. Basing on the deleted posts I want to mention you some distinctions and achievments of these civilizations.</p>

<p>1) Rome & Greece
**<by baller4lyfe="">* The Romans were the first to develop a Public Health System
The Romans were the first to build roads and use them for transportation
Julius Caesar can be accredited as being one of this world's most INFLUENTIAL individuals, he was "as great as a man can be without being moral" (sir Ronald)
Roman culture has practically left an everlasting positve effect in Europe for centuries.
<by thermodude=""> ...the Greeks contribute plenty to the arts, culture and philosophy, but their mathematical contributions were crucial to the devolpment of mathematics during the 17th Century onwards.</by></by></p>

<p>Greece vs. Rome
<by coureur=""> It's true that Rome borrowed heavily from Greece. They recognized this themselves. But thinking and talking gets you only so far. The Greeks had ideas. The Romans made plans.</by></p>

<p>In addition to high achievements in engineering and all the humanities, particularly sculpture and architecture, Romans also had the highest levels of literacy (>90% could read and write) the world would ever see until modern times. They bathed daily too. Compared to the unwashed and unlettered civilizations that came before and after them, they look pretty good.</p>

<p>Romans treated their women better too. Women couldn't vote or hold political office in Rome, but they were educated, they could own land, run a business, inherit wealth, divorce their husbands, and live independently if they chose.</p>

<p>None of that was true for the Greeks. A Greek woman was barely more than a slave. Once she married she basically dropped out of sight behind the walls of her house. She had no independent existence. She lived under the rule of her father, husband, or son. If she had none of those she was out of luck --> out on the streets.</p>

<p>Rome's contribution to modern civilization is enormous. One example: the alphabet all these posts are written in --> Roman.</p>

<p><by angrod=""> While Greece did start a lot of the literature, culture, and art that Rome later picked up on, it was Rome that improved upon these things to make themselves the greatest nation in the known world. Most importantly though, Rome spread all of these things all over their empire (=world at that time). So while Greece came up with a lot of the original ideas, the Romans are the ones who gave it global impact, so I have got to give it to Rome.*</by></p>

<p>2) Egypt</p>

<p>**<by ibclass06="">*
First to invent medicine (later, the Greeks worshiped Imhotep as a god)
First monotheists- much of the monotheistic religions today rely heavily on ancient Egyptian culture
First indoor plumbing
Oldest free-standing structure
First mummies...and so well-preserved, too
First tombs...decorated, as well
First solar calender
Several first games, including primitive forms of bowling and checkers
First fortified outposts (debatable)
Large territory- Syria, Palestine, Nubia, and Punt
Oldest life-sized statue
Oldest identifiable stone statue
Oldest legal documents (wills)
Egypt had one of the longest lives of any civilization (exceptions are China and Assyria).*</by></p>

<p>3) Persia</p>

<p>**<by baller4lyfe="">*The Persians were the very first to create an enormous world empire</by></p>

<p>They also were the very first to create a monotheistic religion (prophet Zoroaster) - Judaism Christianity and Islam have all been derived from it.</p>

<p>Cyrus the Great also created the FIRST DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS, hence, set the basis of humanity (very important).</p>

<p>Many cultures/hertiages have been influenced heavily by the Persian arts.</p>

<p>Persians were one of the most tolerable empires that existed (e.g. Cyrus noted as a liberator rather a conqueror).</p>

<p>4) Mongols</p>

<p><by celebrian25=""> They impacted eastern and central europe so dramatically. And they were stinky. They must of had a great stench to be remembered for such a thing. And they were powerful, like the vikings, but far more feroucious and cruel in their ways.</by></p>

<p><by bigjake587=""> While the Mongols did build one of the largest empires in history, they did not contribute anything culturally other than perhaps creating the Mongol Peace through the suppression of other cultures. This allowed trade to flourish along the Silk Roads for a few hundred years. However, the Mongols just adopted to whatever civilizations they conquered. China's culture was already in place. India's culture was already in place. Russia was just starting out and quickly threw off Mongol rule.*</by></p>

<p>Come on!</p>

<p>hey let us compare the civilisations from the same period.Otherwise,it becomes difficult to really assess which one relly was the greatest.This is coz there were different levels of achievements with different time periods.</p>

<p>So I suggest ,lets make it into 3 parts</p>

<p>Bronze Age(before 2000 BCE)</p>

<p>1.Egyptian
2.Mesopotamian
3.Indian
4.Chinese</p>

<p>Iron age(1500BCE-200CE)</p>

<p>1.Indian
2.Egyptian
3.Chinese
4.Roman
5.Greece
6.Persia</p>

<p>Medieval period
1.India
2.Arabians
3.Mayas
4.Mongols
5.Incas</p>

<p>I think Chinese culture was also in Medieval times. Don't you remember Marco Polo? And what about about Iron Age is 1500BCE - 500CE</p>

<p>And I left for you, Akash, the role to describe India. Plz, be succinct and exact. try to give overall description of Ancient India. And maybe somebodt else can say something about other civils. (chinese, arabian etc.)</p>

<p>akash, I think you overrate India and underrate Greece and Rome. India just hasn't made as many contributions as those two.</p>

<p>Westerners, on the other hand, underrate India. In fact, they hardly know anything about it. For example, when I say I'm an Indian, Americans usually think I'm a Native American. That's pretty sad considering we make up 1/6th of the world population and there are only a few million Native Americans left.</p>

<p>Egypt.
Egypt gets my vote as the greatest ancient civilization, as well as the most mystic.</p>

<p>Mesopotamia, as the heart of human civilization (correct?) and the first inventors of the shadoof {sp} (transporting water through a sytem of levers, like modern day pipes) is a close second.</p>

<p>IMHO, Rome is overrated.</p>

<p>I like the Barbarians who just took over and totally demolished hundreds of years of progress by getting drunk and running around like buffoons.</p>

<p>akash, I think you overrate India and underrate Greece and Rome. India just hasn't made as many contributions as those two.</p>

<p>Agreed. I just wonder how Indians are certain that's wrong. Why when we say "Rome is the best", we're biased? Why aren't Indians biased? </p>

<p>Mesopotamia, as the heart of human civilization (correct?) and the first inventors of the shadoof</p>

<p>Akash can say that India 5000 years ago discovered electric pomp.:)</p>

<p>I like new discussian. Just want to mention again let's keep it constructive without biases. Imagine, what would aliens say about our greatest civilization?</p>

<p>Agreed. I just wonder how Indians are certain that's wrong. Why when we say "Rome is the best", we're biased? Why aren't Indians biased?</p>

<p>I never said or impicated that u were biased.Just unaware.</p>

<p>Akash can say that India 5000 years ago discovered electric pomp.
no,But there is a refernce to dry cells with copper electrodes in a 4rth century scientific text</p>

<p>and the link is?</p>

<p>no,But there is a refernce to dry cells with copper electrodes in a 4rth century scientific text</p>

<p>I heard about it. But it's no more than myth. It's not proved, and not taken seriously (like your Indian texts), but there is an opinion that Egyptians used electricity and magnets to move some thing to impress the masses (to show "God powers").</p>

<p>Well, if we're going to use Akash's categories (which I think we should):
1) Bronze Age- Mesopotamia, without a doubt. India and China were still developing while Assyria,Babylon, and especially Sumer flourished. Egypt stole many ideas from Mesopotamia to get a jumpstart. </p>

<p>2) Iron Age- Egypt, although debatable. I believe Egypt began "Western Civilization" with many useful contributions (listed in original post). Greece and Rome later added to this important foundation. By this time, India had certainly built a thriving and very advanced civilization, but it lacked the global importance of the previous three. </p>

<p>3) Medieval Period- China, without a doubt. Although it was certainly around in earlier times, China really came into its own in the medieval period. They offered much to civilization: paper, movable type, gunpowder, compasses, matches, the decimal system, seismographs, and even the helicopter rotor and propeller (don't ask me what they used it for).</p>

<p>To respond to stardragon: No, I'm afraid the Egyptians weren't that advanced. The first known battery was excavated in Baghdad; it was used by the Parthians to electroplate silver about 250 B.C. The first use of a magnet is traced back to Thales of Greece, although the Chinese used them extensively (loadstones).</p>

<p>1)Bronze Age
India,coz this was the peak of the Indus Valley Civilisation.The biggest,most advanced cities,well over 1000 in no.,had already developed here.</p>

<p>"Romans bathed daily too. Compared to the unwashed and unlettered civilizations that came before and after them, they look pretty good."
The first public baths, had developed here,not to mention the best town planning,the most advanced drainage system,not to mention the most advanced and busy ports of this time at Lothal and Dholavira.</p>

<p>Also,the origins of self-governemnt and democracy.Despite extensive excavations all over the subcontinent,archeologists have yet to find a single palace or any other structure which suggests a monarchy or something like it.</p>

<p>The biggest area of influence</p>

<p>Highest status of women
No slavery</p>

<p>A lot abt this civilisation is still unknown as the script is yet to be deciphered.All these are archeological facts.</p>

<p>2)Iron Age- Again India
"Large territory- Syria, Palestine, Nubia, and Punt-"
Nowhere close to the empires of the Nandas,AShoka and kanishka during this period
they were still lesser than the sphere of influence of Indian civilisation-which covered entire Indian subcontinent,plus Afghanistan,Tajikistan,Parts of Tibet,Indo-china and parts of Indonesia</p>

<p>Many scientific discoveries-which have not been properly documented so far,I admit-
dicovery of pi,irrational no.s like root of 2,algebra and decimal system along with ZERO AS A FULL_FLEDGED NO..most accurate estimate of age of universe,velocity of light,calculus,quantum physics,plastic surgery using modern type forceps,concept of infinity,earth as a sphere,heliocentric model,gravitation,concept of atom and pythagoras theorem(discovered independently form Greeks),elementary theory of relativity,circulation of blood,most accurate calendar of the period,etc</p>

<p>NO Slave labour </p>

<p>System of self governemt in Villages</p>

<p>Philosophy-developed to the highest extent here with over 64 schools of philosophy existing.Modern schools can all find a place here-even Ayn Rand's objectivism</p>

<p>highest status of women </p>

<p>No death obsession like Egyptians.economic resources put to better use.</p>

<p>Biggest Exporter of Goods.Biggest GDP of this period</p>

<p>"Persians were one of the most tolerable empires that existed "
India,without a doubt,was the MOST.No invasions of other countries whatsoever.All races were freely assimilated into Indian society-Huns,Parthians,Indo-Greeks,Persians.
Even,when followers of the Persian religion fled from Iran due to muslim persecution,they were offered refuge only in India.Not to mention Judaism.Unesco and Isreal have declared India as the only place wher Jews were not persecuted.
Oldest followers of Christianity-which came her in 50 CE)</p>

<p>"Romans also had the highest levels of literacy (>90% could read and write) the world would ever see until modern times. "
Wrong again.This was in India,where education was compulsory for all in Gurukul system of learning </p>

<p>"but it lacked the global importance of the previous three. "
In modern times as u think so.Not at that time.</p>

<p>3)MOngols-coz they had the largest territoryAnd of course China for the reasons IBclass06 offered
But the only place where Genghis Kahn was defeated was India.</p>

<p>Also,the richest country of this time was again India.Even Marco Polo says so.</p>

<p>However,even Arabs made quite a valuable contribution-Science and Trade progresed because of them
So cant relly decide for this</p>

<p>"It's not proved, and not taken seriously (like your Indian texts)"
May not be,but that is due to the BRitish hegemony which despised evrything Indian and forced upon India their own system of education,which though no doubt uesful,sounded the deathknell for Indian scriptures,Only in the last 100 years or so have they started coming to light again.</p>

<p>I give u an exact translation of the sanskrit shloka that deals with the dry cell-</p>

<p>"Place a well cleaned copper plate in an earthenware vessel. cover it,
first by copper sulfate and then by moist sawdust. After that put a mercury
amalgamates zinc sheet on top of the sawdust to avoid polarization. The
contact will produce and energy known by the twin name of mitra-Varuna.(cathode-anode)
Water will be spilt by this current into pranavayu and udanavauy. A chain
of one hundred jars is said to give a very active and effective force.'"
Liquid energy, called Mitra Varuna ("Friendly Water God") is produceded Water can thereby be divided into Prana-vayu and Udana-vayu. Vayu means "air." Thus the Ancient Hindus correctly analyzed water as the mixture of two gases. Prana is the life principle (so must correspond to oxygen, which is essential to life) and Udana means "upward breathing" (so must correspond to hydrogen, which is the lightest element).</p>

<p>the mark of a nation is the quality of the person it produces.</p>

<p>No fair. India can't have both the Bronze and Iron Ages. Some comments:
1) Zero- The Babylonians used it first. The Mayans used it as a number in the 1st century A.D. India did not use it until 500 years later.
2) No slavery- true in Indus Valley civ, not true later. After the Aryan invasion (1500 B.C.?), many natives became laborers, artisans, and slaves. This began the caste system.
3) Discovery of pi- India did not discover pi; it improved the existing approximation. The Babylonians discovered it (3.125) in 2000 B.C. using an inscribed hexagon. The Egyptians improved this to 3.1605. The Hindus approximated pi as 3.1416 in 500 A.D.
4) Death obsession- The Egyptians were NOT obsessed with death. Rather, they enjoyed life so much that they were obsessed with life. Read mortuary texts- death is never mentioned except in the negative sense (Blank has not died, he lives and is risen to the Sun that is Re...)
5) Huns- The Huns were not tolerated. Yashodharman drove them out of India about 500 A.D.
6) Christianity- The Coptic Church began with St. Mark's arrival in Alexandria in 48 A.D. Christianity quickly spread. It became the official religion about 60 A.D.
7) Surgery- The Egyptians were very advanced in surgery (not just plastic surgery). Take, for example, the Edwin Smith surgical papyrus. It contains the first surgical references to the brain (very specific, too).
8) Calendars- India had a Hindu calendar, but even today the calendar is up to Brahminical interpretation. The exact day can very in different regions; this draws into question iits accuracy. The Egyptians, however, based their calendar on the rising of Sirius. Their calendar had 365.25 days, which meant they were less than an hour off every five years.</p>

<p>"The Mayans used it as a number in the 1st century A.D. India did not use it until 500 years later."
But did they use it in mathematical calculations????And in 1st century CE? ure sure?
Coz I read somewhere that yes ,though mayas did have knowledge of the zero,they didnt realise its significance in calculations</p>

<p>No slavery- true in Indus Valley civ, not true later. After the Aryan invasion (1500 B.C.?), many natives became laborers, artisans, and slaves. This began the caste system.</p>

<p>Not true at all .First ,the Aryan invasion is still debatable.But the caste system NEVER had slaves.The caste system basically began on basis of occupation.</p>

<p>Discovery of pi- India did not discover pi; it improved the existing approximation. The Babylonians discovered it (3.125) in 2000 B.C. using an inscribed hexagon. The Egyptians improved this to 3.1605. The Hindus approximated pi as 3.1416 in 500 A.D.</p>

<p>Lets chhange it to discovered independently,though the first refrence was in Baudhayana's Sulva Sutras</p>

<p>Death obsession- The Egyptians were NOT obsessed with death. Rather, they enjoyed life so much that they were obsessed with life. Read mortuary texts- death is never mentioned except in the negative sense (Blank has not died, he lives and is risen to the Sun that is Re.
oh relly?Then why is that Egyptian tombs are the biggest examplee of Egyptian architecture??Does the world know of any non-tomb archittecture?
Also,why is it that the pharoahs of the early kingdoms spent 20years building pyramids??</p>

<p>Huns- The Huns were not tolerated. Yashodharman drove them out of India about 500 A.D.
Point taken.pls remove.Let me add scythians</p>

<p>Christianity- The Coptic Church began with St. Mark's arrival in Alexandria in 48 A.D. Christianity quickly spread. It became the official religion about 60 A.D.</p>

<p>Again point taken.But then u must admit they were pretty close to each other.-2 yrs or so.From wat I knew,I thought Coptic church started in abt 90 CE.Also,just as an example of tolerance.</p>

<p>Surgery- The Egyptians were very advanced in surgery (not just plastic surgery). Take, for example, the Edwin Smith surgical papyrus. It contains the first surgical references to the brain (very specific, too).
ok,but Susruts methods very closely resemble that of modern surgery (and he was in abt 600 BCE stardragon) which Egyptians's dont.Also did egyptians use anasthetics???</p>

<p>Calendars- India had a Hindu calendar, but even today the calendar is up to Brahminical interpretation. The exact day can very in different regions; this draws into question iits accuracy. The Egyptians, however, based their calendar on the rising of Sirius. Their calendar had 365.25 days, which meant they were less than an hour off every five years.</p>

<p>but at evry point of time,it is still quite accurate.In fact,Aryabhatta calculated the value to within seconds.</p>

<p>Also I forgot one more point</p>

<p>Worlds biggest university was Nalanda university in India till the 10th century</p>

<p>Also,these are my personal reasons for India as gr8est civilisation.Lets not start arguing here IBclass06.</p>

<p>Points taken. Sorry...I didn't mean to start an argument. I'm a member of the debate team at school, and it just comes out sometimes. :)</p>

<p>Come on, everybody. We need more votes...So far Egypt and Mesopotamia have gained one vote apiece since the start of the new thread.</p>

<p>Akash -
The reason that Egyptian tombs are their most prominently featured forms of architecture and were worked on for decades at a time is because of the Egyptian focus on the AFTERlife, not death. In Egyptian culture, the physical act of dying was viewed as little more than crossing the threshold from one life - physical life - to another - the afterlife. The reason the tombs are so extensive were because they were meant to house the souls of the dead in the afterLIFE. This is why they were filled with everything one could want or need in life - because after the physical death, the soul was believed to continue living and to continue to have need of such articles as food, clothing, entertainment and even servants. </p>

<p>The Egyptians were not obsessed with death at all.</p>

<p>Using akashbansal's categories,
-India for Bronze Age.
-Egypt for Iron Age
-China for Medieval Age</p>

<p>Everyone has made good points about each of the three.</p>

<p>..most accurate estimate of age of universe,velocity of light,calculus,quantum physics,plastic surgery using modern type forceps,concept of infinity,earth as a sphere,heliocentric model,gravitation,concept of atom and pythagoras theorem(discovered independently form Greeks),elementary theory of relativity,circulation of blood,most accurate calendar of the period,etc</p>

<p>Akash, you understand what you said? It is beyond any chauvinism. What you really did:
1) concept of zero - 500 AD
2) algorithm - 500 AD
3) planning of building - AD
4) rudimentary knowledge of what now is called "mechanical engeneering" - after 500 BC (indians used many minerals, metals)
BTW, Kanishka and Kushon Empire made buddhism and diddimenated it throughout Asia. </p>

<p>Babylonians discovered it (3.125) in 2000 B.C. using an inscribed hexagon. The Egyptians improved this to 3.1605. The Hindus approximated pi as 3.1416 in 500 A.D.</p>

<p>IBclass, you forgot Archimedes. He estimated number Pi 250BC, which is accurate to within one part in 2,000. Modern engeneers use this exact approximation very well.</p>

<p>Lets not start arguing here IBclass06.</p>

<p>How can any discussion be without arguing? it's the sense of debates.</p>

<p>But the only place where Genghis Kahn was defeated was India.</p>

<p>Muslims, who conquered India, did it.</p>

<p>1) Mesopotamia
2) Egypt at beginning, Rome - at end
3) China
Overall, Rome rocks. I like its architecture, I like its art, its clothes, its cities, its army (indicator of civilization, I believe), its curiosity, its location. You can bulild 1000-meter temples, examine atomic bomb, but Rome will remain the best. I just dislike Indian culture, from their cities to their clothes, to their discoveries. Rome (and greece here) had fresh mind. Rome made your modern India, and overall world. You took everything from them, what was left from ancient India? Not much.</p>