What it's like to be poor in an Ivy League(or any elite/respectable private college)

Parents Forum
341

“I find it hard to believe that poor people somehow don’t know that there are occasions where people dress up. Even in poor neighborhoods you can find people who dress up for church or religious functions, within the constraints of their budgets. Heck, the women in black churches - with their dresses and hats - dress up far more for church than does your average middle or upper middle class suburbanite! I’d find it believable in poor rural areas but less so poor urban ones.”

PG, this does vary both by region and by ethnicity. Whites in super-casual regions do not necessarily EVER dress up, which I find appalling but out of my control. Blacks and certain Asian groups do dress up – the latter, for example, for solo musical recitals, for certain festivals, and if it pertains, to church. There are great differences both in regions and in ethnicities.

342

@ Hanna that’s interesting to know. Are most Ivy league schools likely to have formals?

343

“I find it hard to believe that poor people somehow don’t know that there are occasions where people dress up.”

The super-disadvantaged kids my sister works with, foster kids and unaccompanied immigrants, have (what seems to us) a totally warped idea of what dressing up means. It’s closely associated with revealing acres of skin. “Dressing up” means for the club, not church. She discovered this because she would tell them to dress up for their hearing in court, and they would arrive half naked. They aren’t headed to the Ivy League, though – CUNY is a big triumph for them.

344

My D’s 6th grade class had a field trip to a middle eastern embassy, and kids were told to ‘dress up’, no jeans or teeshirts. We still had to leave a few kids at the school as they had no appropriate clothing

345

So, nothing like a Bryn Mawr Winter Formal or an Oberlin Spring Formal?

346

Nope.

Bryn Mawr had this thing called Athena’s Ball every few years, but it was super creative … I wore black velvet and my date wore jeans and a tie. Lots of ethnic dress. Didn’t see any tuxes.

347

The only folks who wore suits or formal wear with any regularity are Connies(conservatory students) due to dress code requirements for recitals and performances. When I attended, it’s one way for Obies to visually identify with some degree of high accuracy who’s in the Con and who’s in the college.

It’s the college folks who practically never dress formally and would go so far as to regard those who do so outside of conservatory requirements or interviews for academic research positions/scholarships/jobs as “pretentious” or “bourgeois capitalist tools”. Considering this was a common tendency among many young GOP/libertarian-right students in many HSs…including my own and some colleges, there’s probably something to it. This aspect is one thing a few HS classmates who were young GOP/libertarian-right activists who later reassessed their politics regard as one of the most cripplingly pretentious aspects of their younger selves.

I never needed a suit or formalwear up in Oberlin as all my job interviews were back home or in other areas so it was fine to leave it at home.

Only exception is wearing formalwear as costume for a protest against the establishment or for fun like Halloween or Drag Ball(Women dress as men, men dress as women, or some go completely naked).

In HS and college, I was fortunate to have a hand-me-down suit to wear to interviews from HS even though it became slightly too small for me after my sudden growth spurt when I grew 5 inches in one summer.

Ended up continuing to wear that slightly undersized HS suit until 6 months after I landed my first post-undergrad job and finally had enough money to replace it. It was also fortunate that the first jobs I had were in tech startups where formality of dress wasn’t taken nearly as seriously as other types of firms…such as finance/banking or law firms.

Interestingly, unlike 15+ years ago, 4-year CUNY colleges have raised academic standards and admission requirements to the point they’re no longer considered “colleges of last resort” even for students at/near the bottom of their HS classes as it was in the late '90s and earlier.

348

@dadoftwingirls It is because I don’t often feel that I have to ask for special requests that I don’t feel slighted or victimized by people who do so. While I realize it is advantageous, I have a hard time even identifying situations where this would be possible. I am not complaining per se – just sharing the other side of this story. Additionally, in watching the administration of my school handle certain cases, I wouldn’t feel confident enough in my support system to put myself on the radar. I don’t resent people who do, and I don’t attribute the entirety of their success to being able to do so, but I wish you would try to understand why not doing so is not entirely a choice.

349

I don’t think anyone is going to be denied entry to a college dorm formal if they don’t own a tux. I actually find that type of concern to be silly.

I doubt you could find many 18 year olds from CA who own a tux. Most kids in our high SES area don’t even wear a tux to formal. They are more likely to wear a navy blazer or suit, and often with athletic shoes. Tuxes are not the norm. And there are lots of Californians at the Ivies.

350

Youdon’tsay, I hear ya.

When I was really desperate in college, I sold my plasma for grocery money. I didn’t go to dances or join a sorority. Couldn’t even dream of a car. I had no safety net; I was the oldest of five kids, a zero EFC kid. My mom handed me $50 the day she dropped me off at college and made it clear that was all I’d get from them. Period. Had I not had a small external scholarship waiting at school, I would have had to turn around and go home, because I had no other funds to pay tuition, room, board or books. The bursar’s office agreed to disburse the money over two quarters instead of three, so that I could start the school year and get some time to figure out a job and save for spring quarter. From day one, it was all about survival, not success.

I lost roommates because I worked in the cafeteria and the nasty smell of the place permeated my clothes, even after washing them. Professors didn’t get that I couldn’t attend late afternoon meetings for class group projects because I had to work the dinner shift (4-8 pm), and the group wouldn’t reschedule for after 8 pm because they were all going out to various parties. (Think huge SEC flagship. Most kids on my hall spent more on their social lives than COA. Very few worked.)

DH had no money, either. He went to Wharton as a zero EFC student. DH’s dad was unemployed much of the time DH was in college, and didn’t make much when he was working. DH wore his polyester suits from HS (which his debate coach bought for him) to job interviews his last semester of college. He didn’t have $$ for a wool suit. He didn’t own a tweed blazer, non-polyester dress shirt or silk tie until after we were married. He cooked in the dorm (back before this was a regular thing) and got all kinds of grief from others on his floor. He couldn’t afford the full meal plan. He was a blue-collar kid from the Bronx with a lot of rough edges. He’s gotten where he is on the strength of his brilliance. There are still rough spots.

He and I still live like we are one paycheck away from disaster. However, one of the paramount values we agreed upon 33 years ago when we first met was that we would support our kids at the college of their choice. They would have to help pay, but there was no way in hell we would force them to experience what we did. I can say that despite successful careers and a fair degree of security, there is still some of that fear and feeling like an outsider.

I am glad that colleges are paying more attention to SES and transition issues that they did in previous years. We have other friends who struggled to overcome the enormous hurdles of surviving socially and economically at elite schools. Some got through it; some didn’t.

2 Likes
351

I once saw a documentary about some African kids from small villages coming to the US to college. During an orientation, the counselor told them that once they arrived at college and started their work study job, they would instantly become the richest person in their whole family. It’s not often that bad for native-born students, but I know a young man whose father stole his identity to get credit cards so he could feed his gambling habit. That cost the kid his safety net for years.

352

I always dress up for special occasions and church on Sunday’s. However, I know when I lived in Battery Park City and daughter attended elementary school in TriBeCa with a lot of very high SES families, the principal reminded parents that kids gad to “dress up” for graduation because she said that there are times where you had to be “appropriately” dressed. This meant no jeans. Sneakers, shorts, tank tops, cut offs etc. I remember families purchasing the $5 slippers/ballet shoes from the little shops on Chambers street where they certainty had the means to purchase pretty much anything they wanted.

I remember my daughter’s high school graduation where families again were not hurting for money a high SES crowd where the PTA raised 1 million dollars every year) and there was one boy who wore slacks and a dress shirt to graduation. The girls were dressed up in nice summer dresses, heels and sandals.

At my D’s college graduation from an Ivy, again very few graduates were dressed for the occasion; my own kid walked across the stage in a pair of flip flops, a summer dress and shades (while she purchased some very nice dresses and sandals for both the ceremony and class day, she said it was way too hot to wear the dress she purchased for graduation under her robe and she did not want to take the long processional walk in heels.)I was just hoping that her big hat wearing , Sunday go to meeting grand parents would still own her after graduation.

Yes, parents wore all types of dress ranging from suits, to the Sunday morning big church hats, to golf shirts and khakis even though the ceremony was held outside in the middle of a heatwave.

There were candidates receiving their MDs walking across the stage in shorts, Birkenstick sandals a and shades.

You would have thought I learned my lesson, but she graduated from law school during a heat wave, We skipped the school wide graduation and only went to the law school graduation where once again there were not a lot of people; graduates or their parents “dressed up for the occasion” as people wore shorts and robes to get their JDs.

My principal reminds the staff every year to dress up for graduation but that does not stop one teacher from wearing a Hawaiian shirt and a straw hat to the ceremony ever year ( I think he looks great in it and look forward to his annual ritual).

Hanna does have a point since I work in a Title I school a lot of kids come to graduation and their form of being dressed up looks like they are going to the club. Many of the young ladies receive these dresses for free as I sign them up for a minimum of 2 dress giveaways every year. One of the prom events that I signed my kids up for, the young men can actually get a suit or tux (they also have jackets, bow ties, vests and dress shirts)

353

I feel sooo sorry about bunch of whiners!

354

^ What?

People are telling their experiences. I don’t see whining.

1 Like
355

"People are telling their experiences. I don’t see whining. "

  • You cannot say that everybody here have the same set of eyes. We are all different, have very different story to tell…our references belong in very different categories. Anyway, if you are into peole telling their experiences, why you are stopping me from telling my experience thru expressing my opinion? Aren’t we all asked implicitly to express our opinions here? If not, I do not see what this thread is about. Anyway, the answer to my kid in situation like this is always the same:“Deal with it or get out”
356

@worth2try, I think I understand. Another person’s major crisis is a small part of our day or so minimal why would we even bring it up. I was trying to emphasize once you see another person ask for specific assistance from a professor you didn’t know was available, you can do the same. Didn’t realize racquetball in college could have helped me more in college with certain professors in my department who loved to play. I never thought to ask them and it would have help to make them more approachable to ask for help or recommendations.

I can agree with not being on the radar for certain things. You can’t be sure how the professor may categorize you later for recommendations or giving you the benefit of the doubt on grades later. I had one class where I was one of the few participants when the professor asks questions. I bombed one test due to my own fault but still ended up with a better grade than I had calculated. I think I benefited from the participation I had provided in class.

Sounds like a keep your head down administration.

357

“I don’t think anyone is going to be denied entry to a college dorm formal if they don’t own a tux.”

Of course not. And you do occasionally see a dark business suit at the formals. But being denied entry isn’t the measure of being appropriately dressed for an event, and I don’t think wanting to be appropriately dressed is a silly concern. I wouldn’t wear black velvet to class, and I wouldn’t wear a cotton sundress to a Harvard formal, even though I’d be welcome in those places in those outfits.

Everything about our clothing is cultural and based on time and place. Even people who claim, “I dress only for comfort!” don’t actually wear a bathrobe out to dinner. They wear things that follow all kinds of cultural rules about gender, age, location, everything.

If colleges want to enroll kids from all kinds of backgrounds, and they do, then it makes sense for them to think about how to help those kids adapt to the local cultural rules.

358

Just catching up here so please forgive me if some of my comments relate to posts a few pages back.

@JustOneDad,
My daughter is in the same class at a small private day school with the granddaughter of a multi-billionaire. Yes, that’s with a “b.” The friend lives in an enormous house and I know she’s flown private, although how many times I wouldn’t know because really no one talks about it. It’s not anyone else’s business. I can’t imagine anyone ever asking the mom why she doesn’t wear a bigger ring or the dad why he drives a regular person car, let alone hassling the kids over their lack of designer clothes.

The grandparents live in our town and are around school a lot for various class events and games. I’ve probably been with them 100 times over the years and I couldn’t tell you what they drive, except to say that it isn’t a Lamborghini or Ferrari. This idea that everyone with money goes around flashing it is silly.

I grew up a 1%er, and the closest thing I ever got to being hassled about money was when I was in junior high and a kid circulated a rumor that my family was the founder and owner of a huge consumer foods company (think Dole or Mars) and people started asking me if I could get samples. I had to repeatedly explain that while my dad did have his own company it wan’t one the one they’d been told and that although we did live in a big house we did not have servants, a safe room, or a private jet. Sure it was embarrassing, but such a miniscule irritant compared with the very real problems of kids growing up poor.

As for the tuxedo thing, when my husband entered the Harvard Business School he bought a tux, having heard it was a good idea. He says it was one of the stupidest purchases he ever made. He wore it twice in business school and by the time he needed it again it had gone out of style and he couldn’t find his cuff links. We spent almost as much to dry clean it coming out of the bag and going back in as it would have cost to rent. We attended a black tie event last month, and as is now his norm, he rented his tux.

I can’t imagine ever buying my college kid a tuxedo. Where would he wear it? Kids don’t attend charity events. The idea that the average poor kid should be setting aside money to buy a tux strikes me as the worst kind of social comedy. “I’d better make sure I get to Goodwill to buy my second-hand tux so I’ll be prepared for all the $250/plate fundraisers I’ll be invited to.” [This is not directed at Hannah’s post or at kids attending Harvard, where there may be a real need for formalwear.]

My kid does have a suit but he doesn’t really need one. His go-to is a blue blazer which has come back from a lot of trips wadded up in the bottom of a suitcase. :slight_smile:

I don’t know if Harvard has as many undergrad black tie events as they used to, but I know that even back in my day they were an outlier. Most schools never threw a single black tie function. Hanna, do you know if there’s any kind of tux recycling or loaner program for kids who can’t afford to outfit themselves?

Back to the original topic, a couple of thoughts-

One of the advantages I see among kids who attend private school is the idea that they can and should communicate directly with their teachers outside the classroom. Prep school teachers commonly do double duty as coaches, dorm parents, and advisors, so kids get used to interacting with them informally asking them for things. I think this makes it much more natural for them to go to a professor for extra help or special requests. It’s not entitlement as much as a sense that these are people who expect you to approach them, not distant authority figures. You see the same dynamic with the police in different types of communities.

One of the issues I can see with extra support systems is the old one of whom to invite. Students of color? Families with incomes below a certain threshold? Immigrants? Foreign students? First gen? All of these groups have kids who may be coming to college with a deficit of social capital, but they also contain kids who really don’t need special assistance. The African American daughter of a couple of doctors from Winnetka may not need the same help as an AA kid coming from a Detroit housing project. The son of a couple of unemployed teachers may not need what the son of a manual laborer with no education past middle school needs.

359

“Hanna, do you know if there’s any kind of tux recycling or loaner program for kids who can’t afford to outfit themselves?”

I don’t know. I do know that kids on significant financial aid can apply for grants for all kinds of expenses and free tickets to various events. 0 EFC aid packages include an allowance for a winter coat. It’s a truism about Harvard that you can get anything on Earth there, but you may have to ask six different people before you find the right one. So how good a job do they do of making sure the students know about this? You’d have to ask a current low-income student.

360

Hanna wrote, “Everything about our clothing is cultural and based on time and place.”

Been there with my two sons. My older son changed his style of clothing between his freshman and sophomore years of college. Went more with the preppy look, as he joined a fraternity. He wanted to fit in, and that meant he needed to wear certain brands. (We refused to pay for his fraternity dues, as we just did not have the money.) I bought him what he wanted/needed within reason. Of course, I always seemed to get things on sale or clearance. No one knew, my son said. They only liked the brand that he wore. Same thing with the younger son. Again, sales are everything. My sons dressed for class – sports jackets are/were common. So are/were colored shirts. Apparently dressing up for class in the deep south, in particular, is a big deal. At least they have nice looking clothing for internships and interviews.