So don’t you think your kids have an advantage over first generation/low SES students in that you know how to advise them to be more savvy in a college setting?
Rather, let them understand that the small amount they do know about something is not everything there is.
Let them stop beating a dead horse.
LOL I think this takes the cake for one of the most racist, classist things I’ve read on CC. Well done. Bravo.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to go gather my club and beat my dinner to death. I mean, that’s what those of us who don’t bring wine to dinner parties do, yes?
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Didn’t you say you were a vegetarian, romani? 
No. Bravo for your utterly political interpretation of a politically neutral remark. I made no insinuations about race or class. Originally, this thread was about poverty. If anything, the original theme of the thread could be called somewhat classist, and I surely didn’t initiate any such equation between poverty and lack of manners. My daughter was on a Pell Grant at an Ivy, yet has always been considered – there, before there, after there – more gracious than the average American in any region, on any campus. I didn’t comment on that part of the supposition of this thread; I let it go, because what concerned me much more was what the thread eventually evolved into: A justification (regardless of origin) for thumbing one’s nose at social convention, given how supposedly insufferable and oppressive polite behavior and non-vulgar speech are. Further, a point was (correctly) made that often the most economically privileged students behave without regard for convention in dress & perhaps other areas.
The classism and racism are entirely yours to own.
jonri,
The foul/fowl typo was a perfect freudian slip, eh??
The more of this thread I read the more I feel I must point out to @JustOneDad that your attitude is exactly what many low SES kids fear. I do not mean to attack you personally. Your posts imply that you think this is all so easy and just a matter of attention to detail. You clearly think negatively about anyone who has not figured it out. You really need to step back and allow that these kids have clearly shown that they can master whatever material is presented to them or they would not have been admitted. Rules of etiquette, clothing options and other non-academic knowledge has never been presented to them or may actually conflict with “the rules” in their home communities. Sounds to me like both you and these students have equal learning yo do.
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Jym, yes I’m a vegetarian but who has ever heard of an uncivilized vegetarian?
I have some problems with the “wine thing.” First off, my spouse and I are teetotal. My family was also teetotal. We never took wine anywhere. Secondly, as far as I know, it is illegal for a college student to purchase wine before the student’s senior year (for the most part). Thirdly, and this is where I see the biggest problem for a poor college student–does the fact that the hosts are spending more than the student could possibly afford on a meal/hospitality obligate the student to bring a gift that is “appropriately” priced, from the hosts’ viewpoint?
When I was a junior in college, an aunt (whom I did not see that often, since we lived across the country from each other) took me to dinner at a restaurant where the meal cost more than the clothes I was wearing. I appreciated it, and I loved my aunt, but it did make me a bit uncomfortable.
I believe that I can assure PG, on behalf of romanigypsyeyes, that there are broad swaths of the Midwest where people do not bring hostess gifts, wine, or any other thing when they come to someone’s house for dinner. They do reciprocate the invitation.
These days, when I am invited somewhere and realize that wine would be the customary gift, I go to the sommelier at a local wine store, whom I trust. Sometimes, I have apparently gone overboard on the price/type of wine. I am still pretty clueless about that.
As I read over these examples, I see that one of the hoped-for consequences of a lower SES kid attending an elite university will be that the kid will learn the conventions of the upper SES students around him/her and benefit from this later in life.
But in real life, does this happen?
I was a first generation college student from a blue-collar family (though not particularly hurting for money because my parents were doing well financially at that time in our lives). I went to a semi-elite school (Cornell, as many of you know). I was uncomfortable with the upper SES kids I met there, who were very different from me. So I gravitated to my peers.
By the time I was a sophomore, all of my friends were either first generation or hurting financially or both. We were comfortable with each other. But we didn’t learn what many of the parents on this thread are hoping we would learn because we didn’t interact socially with the students from more elite backgrounds who surrounded us.
It worked for me (and my friends), but we missed out on something, I think.
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We had a long dinner table discussion about this article last night, my D, mom, stepdad and I, who had all read it except D. Talking to D (who is heading to college next year) about the norms and ways of asking profs for help when needed, when it’s appropriate to ask for an extension, how to befriend profs outside of class - many of the things mentioned in this article. D’s fortunate to have experienced-with-higher-education family around her.
I reminded my mom about a time when I was in college and needed a class. My mom advised me to go ask the prof if he’d let me in even though the class was full. I’d have NEVER thought it was OK to do that - no handbook says that, it’s not in the “rules” I knew, I didn’t even know any other students who’d done it. But she knew it was an OK thing to do because she’d had students do it with her when she was teaching/TAing as a PhD student. She suggested how to approach and what to say. I did it and lo and behold, got into the class. Did it once or twice more successfully. We shared this with D, like maybe a lot of educated families are doing with their college bound kids this spring.
One of the schools she’s considering intentionally does things differently from the “poor kids formal tickets line” at Harvard described by the bus driver’s son in the article. This one uses student fees to cover activities for everyone so little expenses don’t come up during the year that some kids might need to ask for help with. A favorite example they use is an outdoor club that skis, rafts, etc and no one pays for lift tix or ski rental or gear, not just the poor kids get it (or apply to get it) covered. Certainly some kids have their own more expensive skis or whatever, but students are on as level a field as the college can make it. That kind of intentional stuff is important, I think, and probably the types of things the 1vyG kids are looking to implement at their own schools.
I was a scholarship kid at a private HS myself. Nothing to do about being low income when others are wealthy, that just IS. But the kids at my school were very cool about it and with me. I was invited weekends to “country houses” of friends and they knew I couldn’t reciprocate, that was OK. The atmosphere at that school was very supportive of me and the other kids who were lower income. Some schools I could have attended for HS were definitely not, and I think that’s true at the college level as well.
Thanks, QM, for the back up on the host gift thing. I was beginning to think I was all alone in not coming from a culture of host gift giving.
But then I should remember that there are some posters on here who think it’s their way or wrong despite their insistence that others are being provincial.
It’s my observation that any discussion that involves manners gets people up in arms. Manners are, by their nature, arbitrary. Many things that are polite have no real utilitarian purpose. The hostess doesn’t need flowers, or a bottle of wine (non-wine drinkers can always bring something else)–but in some places, bringing something is the polite thing to do. The standard table setting is not particularly utilitarian. A cummerbund has essentially no purpose–it’s just part of a particular uniform.
We have these things because they smooth out social interactions. They let people know what to expect and how to behave in many situations. The problem is that there is a disadvantage if you don’t know the social code. This used to be less of a problem when there was less geographical mobility, and less mixing of people from radically different cultural backgrounds. (Note: if you came from a small town, like I did, most people were pretty polite, whether they were rich or poor. So it’s not all about class.)
But I still think it’s very helpful for a young person to learn the manners that relate to an environment he or she wants to enter, whether it’s college, or the business world, or high society. Certainly, if you want to ace that interview with a typical employer, you need to know how to dress, how to shake hands, and how to talk. I think as the diversity of college admissions increases, the need to help students with these things also increases.
On another note, I’ve finally gotten to the point in my college career when I can ask for an extension but even now it is extremely difficult. There was a murder in my extended family this week and I’m likely heading out of state to help with that. I needed to ask for a paper extension because of this and even that was hard, despite being incredibly legitimate and being very close to my professors.
I honestly got to this point by being an instructor myself and understanding things from the other side of the podium.
I’m from NYC but have lived in the midwest for 20+ years. While adults who drink wine or know I do bring that, often people bring a dish to things, especially informal things. I never attended so many parties where guests bring an appetizer or similar to a dinner.
I never had dinner with a prof myself so I have no idea what I’d bring to one as a college student. I’m wondering now what to advise D if this comes up…it won’t be wine, for sure.
You don’t understand the first thing about what I think.
That’s almost never a mistake when the host has a wine cellar. :-c
Romani,
My comment about being a vegetarian was in response to this
Was trying to lighten the tone and add a little levity to the thread, which has gotten a bit abrasive and has had some defensive sounding posts. Carry on.
Another thing that has not been touched on here is navigating career choices as a lower SES student. In a lot of the career talks I have heard in college, there was much talk about how much you can do with this or that (“unemployable”) major. You can create your own job! Your own internship! Roomful of upper middle class kids nodding in agreement. Umm, yea, if you have the time work for free (in the beginning, admittedly), have contacts who will take you with a blank resume, can spend a lot of time on extracurricular activities, can count on parents to help you out with rent after college, etc., etc. And how would it feel to raise your hand and say…these opportunities, they often don’t pay.
It’s not that we weren’t interested, and it’s not that we didn’t believe that economic success does not depend on the major. We did, absolutely. We just didn’t have family who was confident in our success regardless of the route we would choose, and would support us financially while we figured it out.
You actually see a lot of snobbery on these message boards for choosing a “safe” path. For shame.
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