What racial group would they fit under?

Applying to College
141

<p>naj7488: "This implies that you think she only cares to be friends with people who have a certain skin color"</p>

<p>Nope. Wrong again. I offered my view on my friendships. If there was any implication at all, it was that race should not be a factor in choosing your friends (I said nothing about ALL of her friends). The statement she posted was troubling to me way back then, and is troubling to me now. I don't think about skin color when choosing friends, and I don't think anyone else should either. </p>

<p>naj7488: "Here you imply that she is close-minded"</p>

<p>Instead of writing the script for my thoughts, just read my words. You said this, I didn't. I know nothing about Hotpiece's character in general. With respect to this particular situation, she herself refused to consider the other side's perspective (and therefore an apology would likely not be accepted). Don't take it beyond that, if you care at all about accuracy.</p>

142

<p>You said that you "still wish your focus was just on meeting nice people in general" as if her focus is not on meeting nice people in general. </p>

<p>


I carefully read the thread, and I still think you were the one being judgmental.</p>

<p>And where did she refuse to hear the other side?</p>

143

<p>naj7488: "Spidey, it has been asked numerous times that if the event was not racially charged, then why did the residents of Cabot House still call the police when they knew the students on the grass? Yet, you keep skipping over this glaring fact."</p>

<p>Wrong yet again. I already answered this question (I believe more than one). Scroll back and read.</p>

144

<p>
[quote]
Wrong yet again. I already answered this question (I believe more than one). Scroll back and read.

[/quote]
I've read all your posts and I don't see an answer.</p>

145

<p>You don't see an answer that you like, NAJ7488. I listed MANY possible scenarios. Here is another: With so many people posting, do we know who looked out the window and saw everyone's skin color and Harvard attire? Who called the police? Who debated online? Who did some or one but not all of those things? We are talking about a group of people. Did everyone see the Emails? Did some just get angry at the debate and decide to call becasue they felt people were being nasty online (with skin color having nothing to do with it)? Did someone call because they were sick of the noise? Do you know the answer to all of these questions? I don't. No one who does should be making judgements.</p>

<p>And regarding your post just above the last, Hotpiece said she "heard" the other side from the Cabots students who denied what happened, yet believed none of it. If you are not believing someone when they tell you what is really going on in their own mind, there really doesn't seem like much of a possibility for an apology working. I am sure, BTW, that just as you have assumed great things about Hotpiece's character, there are others who assume great things about the character of the students being accussed. And both sides can be correct, as this whole thing could be a misunderstanding.</p>

146

<p>I honestly don't see your response. If you could repost what you considered your answer, I'd be glad to read it.</p>

147

<p>I scrolled back - here is some of what I wrote (and then I am going downstairs for pancakes):</p>

<p>"It just isn't accceptable to me to accuse fellow Harvard students of bigotry when there isn't ample proof. Based on the lack of a sound evidence set, the ease with which one could come up with other plausible scenarios to describe the incident, and the fact that the students who complained have denied racial motivation, I simply cannot see how one could jump to the conclusion that Hotpiece and others have in this thread (and at the school). Again, it could have been something racially based - can we ever know what is in other people's minds? Based on the facts, however, I think we need to give the Harvard students the benefit of the doubt.</p>

<p>It could be because the event was during reading time, and there was loud activity - did they not look like students because they were playing while others were studying? Or maybe because someone assumed they looked like they didn't know the university routine enough to stay off the seeded areas being prepped for graduation? In either case the same phonecall could have been made about a group of Caucasian students doing the same activity.</p>

<p>In the context of a campus filled with hyper competitive students who are grumpy as they prep for exams, complaints could certainly be lodged quickly without a look-see, analysis, or even much thought. Do we know that whoever called looked out and scanned the crowd and noted everyone's skin color?</p>

<p>Isn’t it possible that it was just a different day, and a different group of grumpier people in Cabot? Is it possible that Emails were not read, or that the internet communication was getting combative (thereby making those who were bothered by the noise more inclined to dig in their heels)? Isn’t it true that non-Harvard students also wear clothing with the university’s colors and name (I see it across the nation, and it has to be a more common practice right in the school’s vicinity)?</p>

<p>How do you know that the people writing even saw the people on the lawn? How do you know they believed that they went to Harvard? Isn’t it possible that the angry writers just cared about the noise and the fact that the ceremony could be disrupted (and didn’t care about the color of anyone’s skin)?</p>

<p>I don’t know anything about those Cabot students who complained. Maybe some of them do have a vein of bigotry. It’s just that there isn’t anything you have presented which would prove it."</p>

148

<p>okay, so I still don't see it. Could you bold it please?</p>

149

<p>Were the quotes that I attributed to you not your quotes? Does Harvard not have less than perfect people in attendance and working at the university?</p>

<p>It does seem like post after post you talk about "giving Harvard the benefit of the doubt" despite the fact that the student gave her first hand account of the incident and a "neutral" party in the Crimson corroborated the incident.</p>

<p>Funny thing is that everyone who calls you on your stuff is misunderstanding you.</p>

<p>In a subsequent column to this incident in the Crimson, the columunist states:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Bygones are not bygones, and nothing should be forgotten. *What happened this past Saturday was not an isolated incident. It was a reflection of the attitudes and perceptions of black people that are prevalent throughout society. This has not been the first incident at Harvard that has made people of color feel uncomfortable, and I doubt it will be the last. *</p>

<p>This is why it is crucial for us to seize this moment of anger. We cannot let it pass and become silent again. We must use this hurt. We must channel our pain in order to make sure that these occurrences take place much less frequently. </p>

<p>The current sentiments of many black students must be used constructively. Our anger should not morph into hate; rather, it should evolve into determination. We must be determined to work together in order to make sure that everyone is treated with equal respect.

[/quote]
</p>

<p><a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=518949%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=518949&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The writer of the cambrigde common wrote:</p>

<p>
[quote]
And in the case of yesterday's Black Quad incident, it can mean second-guessing black people's entitlement to use Harvard space in a way we probably wouldn't have had they been white instead. Not only that, but responding by calling the police rather than checking in with the revelers first. </p>

<p>I've got my hands kinda full at the moment responding to Cabotians who've emailed me individually, but I just want to stress that an incident like this presents us all with an opportunity to reflect on difficult, uncomfortable questions of racism (prejudice + cultural/institutional power) and our complicity in it. Rather than get into a whole spiel on white privilege, entitlement, and whatnot, I'm just going to post some highlights (in chronological order) of the Cabot-Open conversation, along with my responses to the list, so non-Cabot folks can get a better sense of what's going on. Hope to see some of you at tonight's race relations discussion in Currier, 7pm. More thoughts to come.

[/quote]
</p>

<p><a href="http://cambridgecommon.campustap.com/blog/entry/view.aspx?Iid=158527%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://cambridgecommon.campustap.com/blog/entry/view.aspx?Iid=158527&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>comments in the bog were as follows:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Why did a group of random people come and take down the barriers protecting the newly seeded part of the Quad? Seems a little presumptuous for a group of people - especially a group that isn't Harvard students (they seem too young, at least from here) - to take that barrier down so they can use OUR Quad.... Now what if the grass never grows in and the senior have to graduate in the middle of a big muddy...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
They ARE creating a lot of noise....I'd love to have HUPD relocate them but isn't the Quad public grounds? They aren't trespassing, are they?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
Before anybody goes jumping the gun, the event has been approved by the Harvard Dean's office which also means that all three housemaster (Currier, Pfoho, and Cabot) have signed off on the event.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>At almost any given time on any college campus, there is noise. Are the campus police called for every noise incident? If this is the case then they must be working double and triple shifts on any given thursday through saturday night.</p>

150

<p>
[quote]
Based on the lack of a sound evidence set, the ease with which one could come up with other plausible scenarios to describe the incident, and the fact that the students who complained have denied racial motivation, I simply cannot see how one could jump to the conclusion that Hotpiece and others have in this thread (and at the school).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>maybe you missed the part in the original article that states:</p>

<p>
[quote]
*Cabot House Master Jay M. Harris wrote yesterday in a e-mail to Cabot residents that he found the call to HUPD “inappropriate.” *</p>

<p>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If it was about Harvard putting a spin on something or coming up with the list of plausible excuses such as e-mail, people didn't know, grumpy students, etc. it would have been given at this point. But hey, maybe the plausible excuse guy had the day off.</p>

151

<p>NA7488: You can get out the highlighter yourself, if you’d like – it was enough that you were unable to go back and read posts. If you choose not to “hear” what I am saying, than there is nothing more for me to do to help you understand my perspective. You can disagree without pretending not to understand what someone is saying, BTW. I see this technique used by my younger teenager so it isn't anything new or different. Pretending not to be able to read something is a juvenile approach to debate. Better to debate what I said, than to pretend you don’t see it, or to keep asking questions I have already answered. Very silly approach.</p>

<p>From Sybbie (Quotes provided “from bog”):</p>

<p>“they seem too young”</p>

<p>“They ARE creating a lot of noise”</p>

<p>“They aren't trespassing, are they?”</p>

<p>“Before anybody goes jumping the gun, the event has been approved by the Harvard Dean's office which also means that all three housemaster (Currier, Pfoho, and Cabot) have signed off on the event.”</p>

<p>There is no evidence of racism here. None of the questions I asked in my last post are provided by this information, making other plausible interpretations entirely possible. Information is provided that the event was approved, but no information is given here as to who made this post, who the people were on the lawn, etc. Do we know the person who posted is the person who called? Do we know the person who called KNEW that the people on the lawn were all African American (if in fact they were - I wasn't there)? If he or she did know, do we know that is the reason for the call (and not agitation b/c of noise, messing up a field for graduation, or response to a escalating online debate)?</p>

<p>And Sybbie also provided:</p>

<p>“Cabot House Master Jay M. Harris wrote yesterday in a e-mail to Cabot residents that he found the call to HUPD “inappropriate.”</p>

<p>What does this prove? Frankly, calling the police on anyone for activity like that is just plain unfriendly and unneighborly, but there isn’t evidence of racism. If there is more information which will support your argument but has not yet been reprinted here (not the opinions of journalists and others who agree with Hotpiece) – from the online posts of Cabot residents - please provide it.</p>

152

<p>sybbie: "Were the quotes that I attributed to you not your quotes? Does Harvard not have less than perfect people in attendance and working at the university?</p>

<p>It does seem like post after post you talk about "giving Harvard the benefit of the doubt" despite the fact that the student gave her first hand account of the incident and a "neutral" party in the Crimson corroborated the incident...Funny thing is that everyone who calls you on your stuff is misunderstanding you."</p>

<p>"calling someone on their stuff" - What exactly does that mean, Sybbie? From what I have seen, you didn't "call me on my stuff" - you made up your own twisted interpretations of my words and confidently threw that in (as if you know my mind better than I do). Better to stick to the issues.</p>

<p>sybbie: "If it was about Harvard putting a spin on something or coming up with the list of plausible excuses such as e-mail, people didn't know, grumpy students, etc. it would have been given at this point. But hey, maybe the plausible excuse guy had the day off."</p>

<p>Do you think giving the students the benefit of the doubt, and citing other plausible scenarios, would have been in the Cabot House Master's best interest? Based on what I have experienced in this thread, apparently being open minded to listen to the other side is a very unwelcome approach. Why would he ever want to undergo in person what I have had to endure here online? We probably can't know what he really thinks, but I can assure you if this thread is any indication there is a very reasonable chance that he would be afraid to speak freely about it for fear of being attacked personally for his attempts to be fair.</p>

153

<p>

Spidey, you can call me childish all you want (seems as if you're getting a little defensive), but I still don't see where you supposedly addressed the fact that these students were told that the black kids go to Harvard. Maybe I'm just misreading your post, which is why I asked you to highlight (because apparently I'm grazing over it).</p>

154

<p>More info on the Harvard incident and on the kind of racism that some black Harvard students and faculty have encountered. This is from an opinion essay by a Harvard professor.</p>

<p>"Around 1990, a black law professor at Harvard was falsely accused of shoplifting and thrown up against a counter at Bloomingdale’s. Bloomingdale’s paid him $5,000 in apology. In 1998, an incoming House “master” dismissed a tenured black faculty member whom he had never met from the House Senior Common Room, based upon insinuations of untidiness and petty theft made by a secretary who had behaved similarly toward three generations of black tutors in that House. The secretary and the new House “master” who had acted on her word were required to write apologies. </p>

<p>Two years ago, a high-ranking black dean at Harvard was stopped by the campus police because he allegedly “fit the description” of a perpetrator. For white Americans, who are most accustomed to distinguishing males from each other according to their height, hair color, and eye color, many black males look alike. The dean’s student work-study assistants were reportedly called upon by the police to vouch for the dean’s legitimacy. No more in this case than in the others does the subsequent apology erase the humiliation of a victim whose mountain of accomplishment is so swiftly reduced to rubble, based on the unreflective impulse, willful ignorance, or hallucinations of an underdeveloped white person. </p>

<p>To the Cabot House students who e-mailed their suspicions to each other, 60 black Crimson editors, Institute of Politics members, Hoopes Prize winners, and Harvard insignia-wearing dormmates playing hula-hoop and capture-the-flag looked like an invasion of gang-bangers. One black male professor also reported that he has been asked for identification so often that he would hardly have thought to mention it, though it does make him feel that he does not belong. He summarizes the attitude of many whites as follows: “When you are an unfamiliar black man, you are by definition a threatening black man.” Thus, to some Harvard students, a black male student simply does not look like a hallmate, and a crowd of black students bears no resemblance to other Harvard-loving kids celebrating the completion of a semester’s hard work and saying goodbye for the summer. </p>

<p>Thus, after May 12, BMF and ABHW noted that the police had not been called on the noisy and largely white crowd that, without official permission, had convened “Quad Day”—a similar event on the same lawn during reading period. Some non-black students have argued, counterfactually, that the police were called simply because BMF and ABHW were making excessive noise during reading period. In fact, according to Harvard University Police Chief Francis Riley, the initial telephone complaint specifically identified the picnickers as non-Harvard affiliates, and that was the original official reason for the police dispatch. By the time the police were called, BMF had been asked to lower the noise and had done so by turning off the music and the bull horn. </p>

<p>Like the black students’ gathering, Quad Day made noise during reading period. Unlike the later gathering of black students, however, the white students at Quad Day had done so on a weekday, had reportedly engaged in illegal public drinking, and had muddied a significant portion of the lawn while playing “slip-and-slide.” In a dramatic indication of the double standard at play, "
<a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=519240%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=519240&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

155

<p>WOW, how about we reach a compromise? The Harvard incident may have had racist implications, however since most of us were not there and do not know exactly what happened and cannot look into the mind of the specific student who called the police, it is better that we just leave it in the hands of those who were part of the incident and stay from what doesn't entirely concern us.</p>

156

<p>The Harvard incident obviously DID have racial implications, though i highly doubt they were conscious. White people as a whole generally dont see african americans as fitting their stereotype of the Harvard students. Because of all of the subconscious stereotypes they have, its not surprising that they called the police on the black students. </p>

<p>It's sad that it still happens but that's a prime example of the impact that subtle racism has today.</p>

<p>It's also a shame that some people, such as spideygirl, refuse to acknowledge this the racial undertones of the situation. The kids weren't necessarily "wrong" for calling the police to investigate, they didn't have the cops called on them because they were black. BUT because they were black, the students were a lot less willing to overlook the situation and give them the benefit of the doubt than if they WERE white.</p>

<p>It's just like a study i once read, if i find it i'll post it, that white high school deans often punish white students less harshly then minority students because the white students subconsciously remind them of their sons/daughters. </p>

<p>This could happen to white students at a predominately black school, but the almost all of the time it is white people in the positions of power and in the majority. So black people face almost all of the racism. </p>

<p>The bottom line is in todays world, black people can't expect to get off easy as white people can. It's more of an example of white privilege than racism.</p>

157

<p>na7488: "I still don't see where you supposedly addressed the fact that these students were told that the black kids go to Harvard"</p>

<p>Can you please paste where you read this specific thing? And if you can, how does this address all of the only possible questions I proposed?</p>

158

<p>Northstarmom- Thank you for (typical of you on CC) posting an information-rich and thoughtful response. Learning about other incidents of racism at Harvard, or anywhere else, is of no surprise to me. I did note the word “insinuations” in the first incident mentioned. Acting on insinuations is never good, and that is in part what I tried to bring to this discussion.</p>

<p>This I need to point out, however: </p>

<p>Northstarmom: “For white Americans, who are most accustomed to distinguishing males from each other according to their height, hair color, and eye color, many black males look alike.” </p>

<p>I don’t think it is good to generalize about how people of a particular race think. I am sure this incident says nothing about how the brains of all Caucasians work, but does fit what you said later on in the paragraph (“based on the unreflective impulse, willful ignorance, or hallucinations of an underdeveloped ________ person” – notice I removed the one word, "white", with which I disagree). </p>

<p>People of all races are equally prone to unreflective impulses, willful ignorance, or hallucinations. I do see and know that African American males suffer a disproportionate amount of discrimination in the justice system (no doubt about it). But this fact is not a reflection on how all “white people” think.</p>

<p>No criticism at all is meant of you here, Northstarmom. I am very familiar with your presence on CC, and have a lot of respect for your generous efforts to help others (you are at the top of the heap). In the spirit of this open discussion, however, I wanted to respond fully to your post with my thoughts.</p>

159

<p>Tyler09: “White people as a whole generally dont see african americans as fitting their stereotype of the Harvard students. Because of all of the subconscious stereotypes they have, its not surprising that they called the police on the black students”</p>

<p>OMIGOSH – did you really write that???. </p>

<p>These are two very racist statements, and in addition they are completely wrong. You cannot speak for how any race thinks "as a whole". Making racist statements is no way to fight racism.</p>

160

<p>Tyler09: "It's also a shame that some people, such as spideygirl, refuse to acknowledge this the racial undertones of the situation. The kids weren't necessarily "wrong" for calling the police to investigate, they didn't have the cops called on them because they were black. BUT because they were black, the students were a lot less willing to overlook the situation and give them the benefit of the doubt than if they WERE white."</p>

<p>I don't refuse to acknowledge them, there just isn't enough information to jump to that conclusion. My point was to hear the other side, and keep an open mind if there are other plausible explanations. I said in an earlier post that we can't know what was in the minds of the Cabot students with the set of facts we've been given.</p>

<p>Based on what I read in the rest of your post, your standards for reaching conclusions are quite different than mine. </p>

<p>You did start to get into why it is that African Americans suffer more racism in the justice system, and your premise that it is because of statistics (the race of the person in charge identifying more with their own race) is an interesting one. Perhaps that is part of it. I thnk it is a pretty complicated issue and one for which there are probably a lot of studies out there.</p>