Hi,
My DS23 is considering Dartmouth as one of his ED choices. He has visited it twice and is excited about the academic program including the engineering program as well as the location, clubs, etc. However, he is concerned about the “bro/bruh” culture and that the athletes “rule” the school and are at the top of the social pyramid. He’s also curious about how inclusive the frats really are… Tour guides made it sound like there’s a “greek house for everyone” but he didn’t know if that was just what the tour guides say. Are there enough “spots” in the frats for everyone who wants to join? Thanks for any advice - not a lot of time left for him to figure out his decision!
Whoever told him that is incorrect. Most students do not go to football games as it is freezing cold. Hockey games are better attended but bros and bruhs def do not rule campus. There are plenty of frats. Most are on frat row which used to have the President’s house at the end. AD (animal house infamy) is not too far from Dartmouth Inn. Yes, there are plenty of frats but most students look the other way. More and more Dartmouth students are now the woke outdoorsy type. You do have a strong undercurrent of old money conservatives and that will never change. They are the ones who rule campus but most students do not break into that circle. It is very subtle.
Engineering – this surprises me. Dartmouth is not known for engineering and require a fifth year for many students to get the ABET approved degree.
Good luck!
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What specifically did he like about the engineering program?
If he’s concerned about the social climate, seems like there are dozens of places he could study engineering with a less frat/athlete vibe than Dartmouth.
I’ve observed a very bifurcated student body at Dartmouth- the ones who love the location, outdoorsy elements, frat and party culture, and those who don’t (and complain about those things A LOT but will tell you “Dartmouth was the “best” college I got in to, so I decided to go”.)
Not a great reason to pick a school IMHO. I think Dartmouth has a lot going for it- performing arts, great academics across the board, etc. but if the party culture is a concern even before applying- perhaps apply elsewhere?
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Thanks for your response - I appreciate your thoughts about Greek life and the culture on campus.
He likes the engineering as Dartmouth offers a BA in engineering as well as combined engineering majors so it’s not as big of a commitment as a BS/ABET approved degree. He’s not sure he wants to study engineering as he has a number of other academic interests.
As I wrote to the other responder, he likes that he can combine engineering with another academic subject. He’s not against a party culture but just doesn’t want an exclusive frat scene. He likes the outdoors, skiing, etc and isn’t a city kid so location is appealing to him.
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If you son would like to explore widely as an undergraduate, and if he would like to broaden his potential college choices, he might consider an LAC from which Dartmouth’s engineering program could be pursued at a later time:
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Brown has a non-ABET-accredited Bachelor of Arts in engineering, but also has four year ABET-accredited engineering programs. I.e. it does not require extra time to complete the ABET-accredited degree to work as an engineer (as opposed to engineering-adjacent paths like consulting or finance with engineering companies that the non-ABET-accredited programs are presumably aimed at).
However, this 3+2 or 2+1+1+1 Dartmouth program does not have assured admission to Dartmouth for the engineering part of the program.
In addition, students starting at the other college may not know whether Dartmouth financial aid will be sufficient until later.
My daughter is a Dartmouth student. Physics major. She entertained the idea of the Engineering Physics program when she applied.
She likes the location and is an avid outdoor hiker, cross-country runner (not athlete). She works as a certified ski instructor on breaks and yes she loves the school and its location. She is parallel with the frat/athlete vibe.
She has no time for parties and no interest in them. You can avoid them, but they were bothering her in the first trimester. First years are not allowed to join, but people were still coming late in the night screaming. After the first round of exams they cooled down.
The money problem is not too subtle. She told us laughing how a guy was inviting people on his family island. Many kids come to courses as if they show up to a business lunch. But most kids are (upper) middle class with good manners. Lots of international kids too.
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I totally agree with you and have taken him to lots of LAC but he finds them all too small. He will apply to a couple and maybe that’s where he’ll land!
Thanks for sharing your daughter’s experience. I’m glad she’s found some activities that interest her - being a ski instructor sounds awesome! I hope she’s enjoying the physics major - that is also something my son is interested in!
He is aware of the money problem but he’s already been exposed to a similar vibe at his private school. The partying story sounds like one he’s heard from kids at many freshmen in their first weeks at school too.
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Yes - he looked at Brown and Harvard which also have some BA/AB programs in engineering. Both are still on his list!
I agree with the posters who have said that Dartmouth’s engineering offerings are weak. Not many LACs have engineering. What other schools are on his list?
If he wants to keep open the idea of engineeeing, he might consider Lehigh (high application overlap with Dartmouth), Bucknell, Union, Clarkson, and Lafayette. Swarthmore is an LAC with strong engineering but isn’t like Dartmouth.
Agree with looking at Brown, UVM could also fit.
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Thanks for the input. He does have Lehigh, Union, UVM and Bucknell on his list.
As I may have written earlier, I would be surprised if he actually majors in an engineering area but rather studies physics, comp sci or even a social science or humanities subject.
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@dogmomof2
If your son is looking for a more academic vibe then Swarthmore might well be a better fit. But could be a bit small for his liking.
Thanks for the suggestion. Yes, Swarthmore could be a good fit even though it’s a bit smaller than he thinks he prefers.
This is the money quote. I would say about 70% of the Dartmouth undergraduate student body loves it and the other 30% vehemently hate it with a burning passion.
Also, FYI – Dartmouth’s performing arts scene is not good (I have a friend who transferred out of Dartmouth partly for that reason).
I’ll add in my thoughts as a current college student who went to Dartmouth for a while and very recently transferred out of the school to a different “elite” college:
Dartmouth is an intensely conformist school. Students who have substantive hobbies other than binge drinking or the outdoors will probably struggle there, to say the least. On one hand, there are lots of great qualities about the Big D – devoted professors, a close-knit student body, and access to the outdoors if you like outdoorsy activities (I personally do not). But make no mistake; the intensely homogenous and conformist culture of the school is arguably its most notable feature. I think that’s what leads to the close-knit student body, TBH.
The fact that the school is so homogenous and “cult-like” is what leads to such a devoted alumni network and tight undergraduate experience. I think this is actually pretty interesting from a sociological perspective; schools that are described as “tight-knit” (Dartmouth, Princeton, Colgate, Grinnell, Middlebury, etc.) are much less diverse (both culturally and demographically) than schools described as “not tight-knit” or “fractured” (Columbia, Penn, Berkeley, etc.). It’s sort of like Scandanvia – the colleges described as “tight knit” and “warm” tend to be that way because the homogeneity of the culture and student body engender said tight knit culture. If you happen to deviate from the “type,” it’ll be like being a minority in Finland – not a great experience, to say the least.
I am still very close to my friends from Dartmouth – I meet up with them every few months (even though I transferred out of the school) and call them on a weekly basis. But we mainly bonded over our intense dislike about the school culture and how we didn’t fit into the student body, which made for a pretty miserable experience. Most of my friends expressed some degree of jealousy that I was able to “escape” Hanover. In retrospect, my friends and I are definitely the opposite of the “stereotypical” Dartmouth student – intellectual*, artistic, politically active and left-leaning, non-conformist, and most of all, outspoken and independent. That type of student (which, OP, it doesn’t seem like your kid is) is pretty much bound to be miserable in a college with a student body of 4500 in the middle of nowhere with a social scene dominated by athletes and Greek life.
*Dartmouth is very anti-intellectual IME. I had multiple professors (especially in the humanities) talk to me privately in office hours about how much they disliked the student body’s apathy and disinterest in ideas. If you don’t believe me, here’s a quote from a Rhodes finalist who transferred from Dartmouth to Yale because of this reason:
He says he enjoys how at Yale … He has so many conversations which “people don’t think it’s inappropriate to bring up class material outside of class.” He said he still thinks about how much he simply accepted at Dartmouth without questioning it; it wasn’t until going to Yale that he saw how different his college experience could be.
Anyways, take care and don’t stress too much about this – I hope I haven’t scared you, OP. In all honesty, if your kid is a prospective engineer who likes to ski, he’ll probably be fine at Dartmouth. I am amused that the tour guides are trained to say that “there’s a greek house for everyone” – implying that there aren’t too many alternatives outside of Greek life. The tour guides are heavily trained to downplay the dominance of Greek life; IIRC the tour route literally skips over Webster Ave (Dartmouth’s frat row) and any spots on campus where Greek life is very visible. IMO it’s a pretty dishonest way of portraying the school.
Feel free to PM if you have any questions. That goes for anyone, not just OP.
Oh lol it’s saying I can’t add links to posts. Weird. The quote I had is from the article “The Will to Leave,” published by the Dartmouth student newspaper in January of 2020. You can find it in the Dartmouth’s Issuu profile. The guy who said that (Farid) is pretty awesome, BTW.
This right here.
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I agree with @cquin85 that this is pretty accurate, but I just wanted to clarify something. Just because most students don’t break into that circle doesn’t mean you’re not influenced by it – the school has a strict “caste-like” social tier system where your “level” (gross, disgusting, I know) is determined by your proximity to whiteness, wealth, and for girls, weight. Even students who seem pretty demographically far off from this wealthy, white conservative circle still have to deal with its assortive effects on the student culture at large.
Feel free to PM if you have questions.
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