Years ago, my oldest son got a D in calculus his first semester at Virginia Tech. If I remember correctly, he later got a D in a required engineering course. He persevered and went on to graduate without delay in Mechanical Engineering. I think concerns about whether engineering is an appropriate major for OP’s son are not warranted at this time. However, I do think that taking some (or more) non-engineering courses might be a good idea. My son enjoyed his first economics course, chose to minor in economics, and got better grades in those courses than in the engineering ones.
Hi, I’m a HS student but i just wanted to throw this out there- is it possible your son has a learning disability? I had straight A’s throughout elementary/middle school, but then got diagnosed with a slow processing speed halfway through high school. If you’re completely unchallenged in one environment and never showed problems with grades or test scores, no one ever suspects that there could be something wrong. If he’s feeling that overwhelmed by his classes it might be something more than a new environment + challenging classes.
Regardless, your son is being very honest and up-front with you. I think that’s a great thing considering how horrible and defeated he must feel. I’m sure with some guidance, tutoring, and a new plan of action (perhaps a lighter course load next semester?) he will eventually be fine. Good luck to you!
Nat, many young people will get smacked in the face in college at some point and I would guess the vast majority don’t have a “learning disability.” College is difficult. It’s supposed to be. The engineering path is difficult. That is well known. Many kids will make some adjustments and overcome that rough first semester.
I’m concerned that you don’t overlook the possibility that partying played a part in his performance this past semester.
My first thought when reading your post was it looked like a young man having a bit too much fun, and needing to learn how to balance academics with social activities. Your followup comment about him being “off” every weekend reinforced my impression that partying may be a culpret. If this is the case, there are many other possible risks and hazards you need to talk about. Please consider opening a dialogue so that you and he can honestly discuss the situation and provide practical advice to keep him safe and set boundaries.
Before I sent my two kids to college I had a talk that started out something like:
“While I don’t condone underage drinking, and prefer that you wait until you’re of legal age to try alcohol, I also realize there will be plenty of opportunities for you to experiment while you’re away at college” . . . “so if you do decide to drink, please make sure you stay safe …”
I won’t get too off-topic with my parental advice (which may be better suited to a different thread). My point is that low grades will seem trivial if he gets hurt or into trouble because of a foolish decision while under the influence. He sounds like a great kid and I’m sure you will get through this.
Just want to chime in again and say kudos to you for addressing this with your son. I’ve got 2 in college now and know it’s not easy. There will be bumps and “surprises.” But if this were a football game, you wouldn’t even be through the first quarter - lots can change. He should consider it a fumble, make adjustments, and get back in the game. He’s got 7 more semesters to go. He may stay in engineering … or switch. He might add a minor or two … or not. Who knows. But he’s very lucky to have you there to support him, offer guidance, etc. And you’re very lucky he’s open to discussing it all with you. Good luck.
If he goes to a school like Cal Tech, Carnegie Mellon, MIT, a low GPA from a A high school student is common. They take all A students and half are in the top and half in the bottom. He will likely learn the ropes and do better each semester. Also a low GPA won’t necessarily keep him out of the field he wants to pursue. If engineering or computer science, those in charge of hiring know what those schools are all about.
That’s probably true for most of the big engineering schools.
Thanks, all, for the discussion and support. To a previous poster’s question re: partying … yes, it’s possible that was part of it. That, and training for a marathon and working out every night at the gym and joining an extracurricular club that had hours-long off-campus activities every weekend… We told him to try new things … he did that ;-). DH and I often wondered aloud to each other how he was able to do all this stuff … he did more his first semester than DH and I probably did all 4 years (we’re much more introverted, but still).
So, he goes back next weekend. DH and I are planning to sit down with him this weekend and touch base on where he is with what he’d planned to accomplish before he goes back, and to talk concretely about his plans for moving forward, goals, expectations, etc…
One thing we’re struggling with, if anyone wants to voice an opinion – do we stipulate that we expect him to achieve a certain GPA from here on out (e.g., 3.0 or better each semester) to continue us supporting him at the OOS school? Or do we allow him to continue there next year even if his grades improve, but not as much as we think they should (e.g., let’s say he pulls a 2.8 next semester … better, but still not great or what he’s capable of doing)? I keep leaping back and forth across the fence. On the one hand, he is perfectly capable of a 3.0 even in tough engineering courses if he applies himself, and if he isn’t going to apply himself, then I think we should save our $ until such time as he is prepared to do so. On the other hand, his grades are too low to reasonably allow him to transfer to an in-state school, so the only alternative is taking a semester or so off and working/doing CC to fulfill general electives until such time as he is ready to go back and be focused on his program of study (engineering if he chooses to continue; or something else with a plan behind it if he wants to change). I think we are perfectly within “our rights” to tell him he loses our monetary contribution to OOS tuition if he doesn’t maintain a 3.0, but I can see how from his perspective that might seem punitive, since the school would still be happy to have him (whether he’d be able to continue in his desired program or not is another question…). Thoughts? Just mulling over contingency planning…
If you want to put on conditions, I would recommend that they are process/behavior conditions, rather than outcome conditions, and that they are motivating/positive, not punitive. Have him keep a log of hours spent at the library, times attended office hours, times missed morning class, etc. Have him give himself points and demerits for each action or habit. Just do up a spreadsheet and have him update and send to you (or keep on Google Docs) each week. This sort of probation can be seen as helping him with his accountability, OR it can be seen as Helicopter parenting. But it is a probationary Behavior Plan.
I would NOT add a positive feedback loop that just increases the pressure and the dread (like threshold GPA). Use incremental milestones (e.g. weekly updates) of short time extent, and assess what DS can control. Do not require an end-of-semester guillotine time of reckoning. He already feels bad enough. Why don’t you support him rather than threatening him with further punishment?
In fact, perhaps you could arrange to send special treats in a “Care” package once a month. Four reports above threshold in pre-agreed point-count and he gets a special treat. It is silly and contrived, and is not REALLY an incentive, but he can at least ‘kiddingly’ aspire to that monthly ‘gold star’. Try to increase the joy in his life!
Don’t be so sure he is “perfectly capable” of a 3.0" even in tough engineering courses. My D2 with 2380 SAT & 800 SAT Math II has been laboring mightily at a tough STEM school to break 3.0. She is working VERY hard, and ended up with a 2.999 last semester. Remember, that is essentially a “B” average. She only got one C the rest of her grades were B- or better (and even got an A in a 1 credit lab, and an A- in a 1.5 credit advanced Diff Eq class). She had a 2.8 the previous semester. I don’t think you should require a 3.0 for next semester. Maybe target a 2.8 with passing all classes.
This jumped out at me because most college classes typically only meet 2 or 3 times a week, and missing “a couple a month” can add up to some fairly significant absenteeism in a given semester. Something to watch, at any rate.
I think this is really excellent advice.
I also agree with the advice for process/behavior conditions. Also read up on the requirements for his major and engineering concentration. The engineering colleges I’m familiar with all have GPA requirements for the major and those requirements will be what he needs to achieve and that requirement won’t have anything to do with you.
Thanks again, all, for the chance to get external perspectives on this. After discussing with DH, we went with not stipulating a minimum GPA … we’ll let that be handled by the college requirements … if he’s making forward progress at a level they’re willing to allow him to continue, then so be it. If he doesn’t do better or does better but not as well as hoped this next semester, then another conversation will be in order about his plans and options regarding moving forward while also wisely managing our $ and the scholarship money. But we’ll bring it up as an option for him to consider together with us, not a hard/fast requirement imposed by us.
We did sit down with him and ask him to talk through what his thoughts are about going back this semester, and we did ask him to walk us through the more detailed grades in each class and talk about specific things he could identify as weaknesses that need to be corrected. Like, doing the extra credit in one class would have made the difference between a C+ and a B- (he had a 79.5 average at the end…).; staying up too late and missing a quiz in an 8 AM class hurt; he didn’t do well on his finals in general … they probably cost him at least half a letter grade in every class … so figuring out a better way to prep for finals will be important, etc… He knows that for what he says he ultimately wants to do, he needs much better grades than this … the challenge is in the day-to-day decision-making that either helps or hurts his outcome for the semester (e.g., all those “good student” behaviors). This is definitely maturity-related … he admits now that he was very short-sighted about alot of things … things that he had all semester to accomplish in August didn’t seem pressing, and he didn’t realize how neglecting work early in the semester would cause him to quickly get behind so that he never felt like he had any margin to get ahead, etc., etc., etc… Classic case of all the things you warn them about before they go to college going in one ear and out the other and then coming back to bite them in the butt… “I told you so,” did not cross my lips, though…
He has always hated and bristled at “behavior charts”, so we’re going with treating him as the adult he is and not adding one more thing that he hates onto his plate; instead, we asked him to write up a list of “behavior” things he will commit to do this semester, and print out a copy for us and a copy for himself as a reminder. I also did ask him to go through the exercise of working through a weekly time budget – not necessarily “schedule” every minute of every day on a calendar, but work through the process of accounting for the 168 hours he has every week, so that he can see where he is going to have to make choices about how he spends his time (e.g., if he’s in class for 16 hours a week, and should be studying/doing homework for ~3x that, then he has 104 hours left for everything else – getting to/from class, sleeping, eating, showering, exercising, etc…).
I’m hopeful because he said he’s actually really looking forward to going back and getting started since now he feels like he knows much better what specific things he needs to do. (Never mind that we’d discussed specific things to do before he went … the stubbornness is strong in this one … he must apparently learn every hard lesson for himself…)
I’ve been dipping in and out of this thread and may have missed some suggestions/ posts. Perhaps you could ask for a brief weekly email update on the week. I.e. any grades, upcoming quizzes, concerns, bragging points, etc. Just top line on how the previous week went. Just a thought
OP, it is so true about “neglecting work early in the semester would cause him to quickly get behind”. Over break, D mentioned that many of her friends did not do so well as freshman in college because they crammed for finals just like in high school. Hard lesson indeed, but he has at least three and a half years to make up for the disappointed first semester.
So I thought I’d post an update and see if anyone has any other thoughts to offer.
Second semester is done. He did better, but not nearly as well as he’d hoped he would – finished with a 2.96 GPA this semester, which brings his overall up to 2.46. Physics: B-; Multivariable Calc: C+; Engineering: B+; Programming: B-; Philosophy: A. We haven’t discussed it in depth yet but his overall assessment is that he sucks at multiple choice tests and finals, and having all of his technical classes being tested that way really hurts; he knows he needs to figure out how to do better, but doesn’t know how to tackle this problem because it seems so intrinsic and not terribly dependent on how hard he works. That may sound like an excuse, but his individual grades bear that out. As examples, he cited getting a 95 and 93 on his big engineering projects this semester … but getting B’s on the multiple choice tests. A’s on the homework and free response quizzes in Physics … but B’s and one C on the multiple choice tests. A’s on the homework in Calc; B’s on the free response tests in the semester, but then died on the multiple choice common final, which brought him down to a C+. He likes programming and does pretty well at it … but all his programs this semester were graded by an online auto-grader (WebCat) that would hiccup and mark the program as failing to run properly when there were slight differences in output format or programming approach from the “correct” program provided by the instructor, regardless of whether the program performed the assigned functionality or not. His 2 A’s in college have classes that are 100% paper or project-based (Chem lab, and Philosophy). So, yeah, it sounds like multiple choice/auto-grading is probably costing him about half a grade level (e.g. 0.3 GPA or so) in most of his classes. As an engineer myself who never had to endure multiple choice in any of my technical classes 30 years ago, I’m pretty confident I’d have done at least a half a grade level worse in my classes if I’d had to do things that way; I was the Queen of Partial Credit…
So, the question is, what now? He’s determined to keep pressing on and trying to improve, even if it is incrementally each semester. He has to apply to change his major into a specific engineering discipline, which will be competitive based on his GPA. So, he has some decisions to make. Right now he says he thinks he’ll go for Engineering Science and Mechanics, since it is a smaller department, not as competitive to get into, and offers a Biomechanics option, which is what he really wants to do eventually. Because of his AP credits and being “ahead” of the schedule, he will likely take some more elective credits this semester that will hopefully help boost his overall GPA. We’ll see. It’s not the direct/“easy” path he could have taken, and he understands now how hard it is to recover from his first semester mistakes, but I’m proud of him for not giving up.
Reading this message, I get the impression that your son is still wanting to blame someone other than himself. He does badly in engineering and physics classes, but it’s the fault of the multiple-choice tests. He does badly in the programming class, but it’s the fault of the auto-grader that “hiccups,” for him but not for all the other students who manage to produce programs that satisfy the specified functionality.
I’m not an expert on physics, but I am an expert on programming, and the auto-grader excuse is ridiculous. If the program doesn’t produce exactly the specified output, it doesn’t “perform the assigned functionality.” If a program sort of produces the right output but not really, that’s usually a sign that it’s about half finished, and plenty more work lies ahead to get the rest of the program to do exactly what it’s supposed to do. Moreover, typically either the professor provides some sort of checker for the program, or the student gets several tries at the autograder.
It makes perfect sense to use an auto-grader to grade programs. In essence, that’s what professional programmers do; they write their own test suites, to test that the program they’re writing does what it’s supposed to do. If the class doesn’t provide a tester, he should write his own.
Is your son studying with other students? That won’t help with programming, but for the mathy physics and engineering classes, working problems with other students could help him get faster and more accurate.
I think that’s lots of good news! He didn’t give up. He did better, even if not as well as he wanted. He has not let adversity or disappointment crush him. You did not overreact. So those all are to the positive. His articulation of the problem is also good, even if it is a little lame. College tends towards the unfair in grading, so he’ll have to work on his multiple choice skills (which will be improved vastly by mastery of the subject).
Rather than taking electives, he might also consider taking fewer classes so he can concentrate on better results. But honestly, B’s, one C and an A? That’s not nothing. No matter what you read on CC, colleges are not in fact chock full of students with straight A’s.
Well, I would like to offer some congratulations. He made considerable improvement on his GPA. Yes, I agree it still seems like he’s trying to “blame” something outside himself for his grades in math and science. However…(I know, may seem cazy!)…his grades are fine. He has Bs and one C. Is that so awful? I know lots of high performing hs students have a tough time wrapping their heads around the idea that they aren’t top of the heap any mober, but there’s nothing wrong with being a B student in engineering–or any other major.
If he wants to be an engineer, then here’s an engineering analysis problem for him: what is going wrong on those multiple-choice questions? Is he too slow? Is he making mistakes of detail (sign errors, for example)? Are there some problem-types he misses because he didn’t review that part of the curriculum? IMO, he’s wrong that the problem doesn’t depend on how hard he works.