The federal funding you may be thinking of, @OHMomof2, are National Research Service Awards (NRSAs) through the F30 mechanism (specifically for MD/PhDs). Funding announcement is [here[/url]. These are individual, competitively awarded grants that a student would write with the support of at least one faculty member to one of the NIH (depending on their research interest). I have several friends who have gotten the PhD version of these (F31). It’s a long process, and requires a close working relationship with someone who has an intimate knowledge of how to write NIH grants, and usually requires at least one resubmission before success is had. The entire process can easily be 2 years from the time you begin writing to the time that you actually win the money, if you get it at all. That said, I don’t think a college senior would be capable of writing one of these, let alone competitive. It’s usually something you write in your second or third year of graduate school, with the intent that it’ll fund your dissertation years.
There are also institutional grants (T32s). Those are easier to get for the student because it is the university who applies for the grant through the NIH; once they get the money, they are empowered to accept a certain number of graduate students into the program through whatever mechanism they wish. I had three of these in grad school + postdoc and they all had different application processes and none of them were as cumbersome as the NIH process. (And in the case of two of them, I didn’t even apply - I was invited into the program.)
There are also NIH dissertation awards like the R36. They’re an NIH grant and they give you salary support while you complete your dissertation.
Frankly, though, I wouldn’t go the MD/PhD route unless she’s absolutely sure that she wants to add some clinical work into the mix. 9 times out of 10 she’ll be able to do the kind of research she wants without the MD anyway; it seems to just add an unnecessary extra 3-4 years to a research program. Considering that she also may need to spend 2-4+ years as a postdoc before she gets a decent research position, that seems like a particularly miserable way to get an MD paid for.
I think it’s because
Most people who get an MD intend to be clinicians.
On the flip side, most people who want research careers and know that ahead of time go to get a PhD.
Even in the small amount of cases in which an MD decides they want to be a researcher after the fact, the MD doesn’t really prepare you for research and you’d have to do a postdoc most likely to be competitive for a good research position. That’s an extra two years with low pay while your loan interest piles up. I’d imagine that’s not so appealing to MDs, even MDs who have considered a research career.
The above is all post bachelor’s degree. This HS student is still evolving. Her best bet is to research undergrad colleges that offer potential majors and the possibility of doing research as an undergrad in some way. There is a wide variety of medical research out there and a wide variety of schools. She should not plan to do medical research as an undergrad- there are so many basics to learn in the realm of science research that she shouldn’t ignore many good choices by focusing in on just this type of research.
Have your D research schools for where she wants to be for four years. With her ability the upper tier schools that interest her will offer majors that interest her and will prepare her for her future. Do not let her fall for the school that is cheapest/offers the most money just because it is cheaper than ones she likes better. Do not worry about grad school at all at this point.
I know kids who went to Washington U in St Louis. There can be medical research opportunities there but the downside is so many premeds. There may be downsides for the science major who wants to be among grad, not medical school, hopefuls. I noted there is only one general chemistry sequence there- unlike at least three at UW-Madison. Same for other STEM course sequences.
Likewise check on courses available to serious science students at all schools considered. Being among those with similar interests and goals gives a peer group. Your D needs a solid background in a STEM field to get into a graduate program. Many top U’s will have these and faculty in the know for getting into desired grad programs. The assumption is that she will want an advanced degree, btw.
btw- For most getting either the MD OR the PhD, not both, is the way to go. No sense going through medical school with all of the clinical years if one never wants to function as a physician.
I just spoke with a Phd (Biochem, master’s biology/chemistry) yesterday at my son’s football game. He has worked as a researcher for a large company and has also worked in the medical field and he said that if the student plans to work in a hospital environment like a large research hospital that they do not value a Phd like the do an MD. He said he is unsure why he feels this way but that he has been left with a strong impression that most researchers have an MD and they may have a masters as well. Not sure if this is just his perception but he has been in the industry a long time.
Thanks everyone for the insightful information. I think I’m all for taking @wis75 recommendation and try to focus, with my D, on her UG choice. We will have to start digging a little deeper into programs and availability for research possibilities. That’s got me worried, because she is more interested in their fight song or mascot at this point. Have not been able to get her time to look at any schools in any detail. I think I scared her off because I’m so fascinated by the whole process, and am probably over-analyzing it. Gotta keep it simple for now. I’m starting to see the threads from kids who are borderline-miserable early into their freshman year, and I don’t want that to be her.
It’s nice to know a little bit about how PhD and MD/PhD programs work, but I agree with @wis75 that it’s early days to be worrying about that. One school I have not seen suggested is Rice. My nephew (same one as in my first post) ended up there with a very good scholarship and had a fabulous experience. He got invited to research in a lab at freshman orientation. The result of that research ended up in an interview we heard on NPR. During two summers he worked for a lab that produced probably the most important biology paper of the century. He got to be one of the (many) co-authors. He’s in grad school at MIT now.
Depending on your finances your child may be better off at one of the really good public universities, perhaps in an honors program.
I think many CC parents have gone through this. I know I had to rein myself in and resist sharing every thought or insight I had about college with D, she’d burn out. At the same time if you’re fascinated, go for the research, chat here, learn all you can. Gather info. What worked for us was limiting convos about college, and I know some who made it official - we only talk about it for an hour on Sundays or whatever. Especially as you come into app season next year.
If you haven’t joined the “parents of the HS class of 2017” thread you may wish to.
@OHMomof2 Yes, I’ve backed off the throttle with her. She’s done with the PSAT now, so that’s no longer hanging over her head. I like the idea setting aside some time every week or two chat about college, until she feels she wants to dig in, which I believe will happen. All the juniors are crazy busy right now it seems. And, I have recently been following HS Class of 2017 thread.
@mathmom Yes, there are a couple of honors programs we/I have seen that look interesting, and either the school or the program provides some potential merit awards. This is another area that requires some detailed research, and probably a visit, to see if it makes sense.
My S is a junior in college and interested in a career in medical research. He’s majoring in biology. When he chose and undergrad, he opted for a LAC with strong bio department. He had heard that undergrads have better access to research at a college (rather than a university.) At a university, often the good research positions go to grad students.
13- he may have heard it but this doesn’t make it true.
Often repeated on CC- endlessly- but without a shred of evidence. The powerhouse research universities have grants, lab resources, staff, and funding for undergraduate research that dwarfs that of smaller schools.
It’s great that your son has found a great match- and presumably is doing terrific research in bio at an LAC. But that doesn’t mean that university would have been a worse choice for him.
I know kids at MIT doing cutting edge work in interdisciplinary genetics (bio, math, chem and computer science based); brain functions, electrical stimulation for quadraplegics, etc. all at some of the many teaching hospitals in Boston as undergrads. A huge university is where these affiliations and outside opportunities become available.
Well, it really can be true - depends on the large university considered. At large research universities, the norm for research is the grad student and the professor. The random freshman isn’t going to do much research at Iowa State or UAlabama (large public flagships). On the other hand, LACs specifically choose professors who want to involve undergrads in their research (that’s one big hiring criterion). The random freshman at a (s)LAC would be different in motivation, outlook, etc even if their stats were similar. Undergraduate research is also more “normative” if you will, depending on the college, because these colleges’ populations are self selected.
HOWEVER, if OP’s daughter’s stats come true, then the problem wouldn’t occur because she’d in a an Honors College and thus would have access to professors and research opportunities freshman year, immediately be “tagged”, mentored, etc. The Honors students at Iowa State or UAlabama WOULD be doing research.
OP’s not looking at MIT because s/he’s looking for universities that offer some merit aid, so while your example is absolutely true, it doesn’t apply here specifically. Also, MIT is not just a research university, it’s a unique STEM school, which alters opportunities.
I think OP needs to look at LACs that emphasize undergraduate research in the sciences and offer merit scholarships (I’m thinking anywhere from St Olaf to Hendrix to Wooster to Dickinson, OP would have to investigate those with professors whose research fits in with his daughter’s interests, broadly, and which have connections to grants/labs etc) as well as top Honors Programs(Barrett, Schreyer, UAlabama, UVA Echols/Jefferson, Michigan LSA…perhaps Robertson at UNC-CH?)
William and Mary doesn’t have merit, or it could have been a great pick, too.
I’d throw in Pomona, Wellesley*,Bowdoin, Carleton, Williams, and Amherst , even if there’s no merit, to run through the NPC, in case they’re affordable. Then all the powerhouse universities, although to put through the NPC. OP could select 4-5 that have the lowest price among those.
Well, if we’re swapping anecdotes - I went to a small research university as an undergrad, one that is well-known for its research opportunities and close faculty-student relationships. The undergrad research I did there was nowhere near as exciting, as cutting edge, or as satisfying as was the research available to undergrads at the large non-descript state-university grad school that I later attended.
There was no comparison, really. The large state school had more research funds, more state-of-the-art equipment, and more sophisticated research opportunities for undergrads than did my higher-ranked undergrad school. To be honest, it was a little embarrassing - the sophomores working in my grad school lab had more broad hands-on experience in the lab than I did.
And I AM talking about the Iowa State/ Alabama type of school. In fact, I had a friend who did his undergrad at Iowa State, where he did research for one of the Chem professors there for three years.
Later, when I was interviewing undergrads for a prestigious summer research program at a pharma company, we routinely hired students from University of Oklahoma and Michigan State, mainly because of the breadth of their lab experience.
All this to say - you really can’t make general judgements about the research ops at state schools versus LACs. So much depends on the availability of grant funding and research dollars, the relationships between academia and industry, and the personalities of the faculty members involved. Sometimes it’s those non-glamorous state schools that actually have more opportunities in a wider range of sub-fields. Not every LAC can support projects in nanotechnology and synthetic medicinal chemistry and biomedical engineering.
There. That’s my sweeping generalization of the day.
^well, actually, you complement my point. It’s important to look at actual offerings and not assume that because the term is “research university”, there’ll be meaningful research for undergraduates, nor should one assume there’ll be no research conducted at LACs. And depending on the field, there may not be sufficient offerings if the college is small, and certainly not all research specialties are covered so one must investigate. For example, if you’re interested in Punic Archeology, you’ll have to look closer than if you’re interested in Athens, for example.
For the record, my post was NOT a put down of flagship universities, far from it - I was pointing to a different environment and different situations.
I bet (I mean, seriously willing to bet, if you can check) that those sophomores in your lab are Honors students. It’s possible, but very very difficult (and WAY not normative) for “regular” sophomores to be involved in research, and those would be “the” top student who somehow isn’t in Honors. (When you have a 130 student lecture you don’t know the professor, and your lab is taught by a TA. The process is easier if you’re in a class capped at 30 and your professor is also the Honors Science premajor adviser, plus the Honors list serv sends you lists of openings/opportunities and there are encounters organized with researchers in your field.) It is absolutely normal for Honors Sophomores to be involved in cutting-edge research at any flagship. And of course R1 universities have more grants and more facilities, so one must visit and check any 'not R1" university. Also, some smaller colleges really have excellent facilities too, but not as many fields covered by far.
OU and Michigan State have state-of-the-art facilities and superb honors program (not top 10 but excellent. Top 10 Honors College students have even more opportunities). OU’s has the most NMFs in the country.
Also, note you didn’t attend a SLAC, but a small research university, where professors do not have the “undergrad research” as part of their top hiring criteria. (I’m imagining more Brandeis than Wooster).
I got the NRSA 15 years ago and that was renewable for 3 years. However, I got it when I was a post-doc. I am not aware of one for PhD student. @juillet The process does not take 2 years. After submission, the review usually takes place within 3 months. Then you will get the review score in a month and comments afterward. The actual money arrive around 1 year after submission deadline.
Actually, no - those sophomores in my post weren’t honors students, just students interested in chemistry and willing to seek out opportunities. (I got to know them pretty well because we all worked closely together in the lab.) They were just “regular” students who wanted to work in the lab and make new molecules - and my professor was well-known for giving any serious student a chance.
That was my point. Undergrad research opportunities can be pretty complicated and not easily pigeon-holed.
Some schools like UMich really encourage undergraduate research opportunity. I had several students under that program when I worked there.
Medical research can be a very broad field. For instance, biostatistician doing nextgen sequence analysis can be a math major in undergrad. I know a PhD who just graduated not long ago is actually doing that in biomedical research and she was not a biological science major in college.
Frankly, research university or liberal arts college - I think it doesn’t matter. If this is a young woman looking at top-tier colleges and universities like the ones suggested on page 2, she’s going to have great research opportunities at any of them. From that point on it should really be about fit and her personal references. Being concerned about the mascot or fight song is totally okay when you’re starting from a base level of excellent schools - if she’s choosing between Reed, Oberlin, Brandeis, and Ohio State, for example, there are going to be great research opportunities at any of these schools.
I’m not discounting the power of the honors program to get you research opportunities because a lot of times those programs seem to set them up. But the random student at Alabama or Ohio State who was interested in research could probably get a research position if they wanted one. At least in my experience, they don’t tend to be super cutthroat competitive; most undergraduates have little to no interest in research opportunities (although I think that’s grown in the last 5-10 or so years given that colleges market them now) and most labs could use more than a few hands to do some work in the lab. A lot of labs also have unadvertised or completely created positions, and undergraduates are cheap - most undergrad RAs don’t get paid. Of course, the best thing to do would be to ask on tours and talk to some current students who are doing research about the availability and difficulty of getting research positions on-campus.
Another minor point I want to make is about consortia and areas with high concentrations of research universities. I went to a small LAC where most of the professors were doing research (I think the expectation was around 50-60% research for tenure-line faculty). There were definitely opportunities. However, it was also in an urban area (Atlanta) with many other research universities nearby, and many of my friends were doing research at Emory, Georgia Tech and Georgia State, as well as at the CDC and other nearby research institutions. That’s a consideration, too - a student at Smith or Amherst could potentially do research at UMass; a Wellesley student could do research at MIT; a Swarthmore or Haverford student could travel up to UPenn. Sometimes these relationships are actually formalized by professors or through special programs - there was a neuroscientist at Haverford who had an established relationship with UPenn to use the fMRI scanner up there, so students in her lab were conducting research using Penn’s facilities.
That was based on a rough estimate of 4-6 months actually writing the thing to submission + 3 months of review + ~4 months of reworking it to resubmit + 3 months of review + time to award (~3-4 months from the time you get the award). Altogether that’s around a year and a half to two years. (I mentioned that I am assuming resubmission in my first post). But even if you didn’t have to resubmit, if we assume that the grant-writing process itself took 4-6 months, and you mention that the money arrives about one year after the submission deadline, that’s about 1.5 years - and it is not including the study planning process prior to putting pen to paper.
But…that’s all pretty much irrelevant to a high school senior
