<p>OH! Of course. And both me and H went to medical school, albeit 20 years ago. I don't know how we did it! My D seems so much smarter and hard working, but it sounds terrible! And to think I thought it was kind fun.</p>
<p>This is such a fascinating thread. Thanks so much to everyone for sharing their experiences!</p>
<p>Still can't figure out where my son would fit in on the reach vs. non-reach spectrum. </p>
<p>Unlike others have mentioned, he doesn't seem to thrive on competition (spends nights before tests & SAT helping his friends instead of studying for himself). Had learned to play the game of 'do what it takes to get an A' but still only goes the extra mile in classes he enjoys.</p>
<p>Would a kid who doesn't thrive on competition fit into a 'competitive' school? (I realize these are all generalizations...)</p>
<p>Um, well, Colgate is a competitive school but not terribly cutthroat in the humanities or social sciences. In the sciences, definitely. The most important thing, really, is that can he IGNORE the competition and cutthroat environment? If he wants to be competitive, then fine. </p>
<p>But not everyone is naturally competitive. I'm not though I do work very hard in my major to appear competitive for graduate schools. Professors know it. I just can't get myself to be competitive but as long I focus on ME and my own work, then I'm my own competition. He'll do fine if he's good at being independent and ignoring other kids' "what did you get on that final??" nosy comments. Unfortiunately, my fear is that when my grad school looked at my app, they might assume that I'm competitive with my work because of my school's nature, and they find out that I'm so lax... </p>
<p>Otherwise, maybe it sounds like he might just do better at an academically match school if he's not competitive with others or himself.</p>
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Unlike others have mentioned, he doesn't seem to thrive on competition (spends nights before tests & SAT helping his friends instead of studying for himself). Had learned to play the game of 'do what it takes to get an A' but still only goes the extra mile in classes he enjoys.
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<p>Sounds like he should look at schools where the students enjoy their classes and helping each other in a collaborative environment.</p>
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e'll do fine if he's good at being independent and ignoring other kids' "what did you get on that final??" nosy comments.
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<p>I actually found the most competitive students in my classes were the ones that refused to talk about how they did on a test afterwards. Either that, or they'd grill you until you gave them every little detail on what you did wrong. After a test I'd usually chat with my friends about how we thought we did on various portions and want to find out what we did wrong because we genuinely were curious. I know a had more than one test where I was ****ed none of us figured it out, because I really wanted to know how to solve that kind of problem. :(</p>
<p>Hi. OP checking in. </p>
<p>Like Jolynne, I've also been fascinated by the answers. Some have been encouraging and some have been worrisome. I also think my (10th grade) son is like Jolynne's. A great student, but not the top student. </p>
<p>Funny ticklemepink mentioned Colgate. It comes up time and time again as a good match for son. He's not the least bit interested in a math/science career, but excells in the high-verbal courses. </p>
<p>Having said that, I still think we'll tour and possibly apply to several reaches. I liked hearing that the hardest thing about Ivies is getting in. I liked learnign from this thread that some other schools (Williams? Swathmore? I think) have a rep for harder classes. </p>
<p>Very interesting. Thanks.</p>
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<p>Williams, Swarthmore and several others are known for grade deflation. The curve is steep, and even if everyone in the class deserves an A, everyone doesn't receive an A. If your objective is to maintain an A average, then you will be exceedingly stressed.</p>
<p>On the other hand, it's not so hard to get a B (or B- in a very tough course or B+ without trying too hard). I would think that a range of A's and B's is the norm. I can only speak for Williams, but for sure kids balance academics with ECs (sports, arts, activism - sometimes more than one) and pure socializing. </p>
<p>Another point that I would make about small LACs is that the professors know their students and if the students are under-performing or slacking, the professors often take the initiative to find out why and get them back on track. </p>
<p>There are other safety nets available, like reading centers, study groups and professor-led review sessions, but, to me, the personal involvement of the instructors is the key factor that keeps less focused students from crashing and burning even in the most rigorous academic environments. This is not strictly hand-holding as the criteria are still very tough; it is more of an awareness of their students' individual capabilities and the personal connection that mentors and motivates.</p>
<p>Look at the graduation rates at the most selective LACs; they are incredibly high, which indicates that once they get them in the fold, the schools find a way to help students succeed. Then look at the graduate and professional school acceptance rates for the same schools. This indicates that even if they're not getting all A's, these kids are getting into top programs.</p>
<p>My daughter felt that Rice was very non-competitive (except for a few pre-med majors) and she really enjoyed her classes and classmates.<br>
I was very impressed with Colgate when we visited (S was recruited) and the students seemed happy.</p>
<p>I just want to correct something that may be misleading: There has been no grade deflation at Swarthmore or Williams in at least the last 50 years. The median GPA at both schools in recent years has been in the B+ range.</p>
<p>The graduation rates at top schools have skyrocketed over the years. For example, the 4 year grad rate for Swarthmore's Class of 1975 was 73%. Compare to the four-year grad rate for the Class of 2005 at 91%.</p>
<p>Why? I would suggest that the safety net and support services available to, and routinely used by, today's students is a big part of the reason. </p>
<p>For example, back in the 1970's nobody went to Psych Services unless they were certifiably nuts and hallucinating (without mushrooms). Today, it is routine for college students to turn to Psych services for a little bolstering during a trying period in college. Large percentages (a quarter to a third) of students will have gone for at least an informal buck-me-up during their four years. Parents should encourage this, with most going for just one informal counseling chat to get over a hurdle.</p>
<p>The mentoring programs available today simply didn't exist thirty years ago. For example, Swarthmore's Writing Associates program is a model that has now been implemented by just about every liberal arts college. Student's are trained in peer review of papers. At Swarthmore, the Writing Associates (WAs) take a special semester long course. Any student can drop in any time to discuss their topic, their outline, or their rough draft of a paper and get suggestions from a WA. Some courses have a WA assigned and review of rough draft by the WA or the professor is mandatory. These writing programs are widely used at many schools. It's a tremendous advantage for a student to feel comfortable getting a peer review of a paper before turning in a final copy. Imagine how this helps a student who comes to a reach school without the best writing skills or confidence.</p>
<p>Study groups have been around forever, but schools are now formalizing them with department support. For example, Swarthmore uses some of their Howard Hughes Medical Institute grant money to support Biology and Chem study groups, led by junior and senior majors to assist in the groups working through problem sets, complete with donuts and coffee. Attendance is sky high and internal studies show that regular participation actually increases grades statistically. Again, these are support functions that were nowhere near as formalized or widely available thirty years ago.</p>
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I just want to correct something that may be misleading: There has been no grade deflation at Swarthmore or Williams in at least the last 50 years. The median GPA at both schools in recent years has been in the B+ range.
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<p>Okay, let me revise my comment and put it another way: "Williams, Swarthmore and several others are known for not succumbing to grade inflation." A B+ GPA at these schools is known to graduate school admissions as an excellent accomplishment. </p>
<p>And in graduate and professional school admissions, the personal relationships with professors factors in again. The professors who are mentoring during the undergraduate years are the same people who are writing recommendations and making introductions at the grad schools they attended.</p>
<p>no, it's not. B+ average is a 3.33, the same average gpa at harvard/columbia/etc., schools criticized for having to much grade inflation.</p>
<p>back on topic, i'm attending a lower reach and found that there are stupid people as usual, but a higher percentage of outrageously smart people (relative to the top prep i attended). </p>
<p>my conclusion is the same that my parents found at harvard - if you're a genius in high school, you'll still be a genius even at the top colleges. except, maybe, caltech =)</p>
<p>My son went to his reach school transferring after his freshman year. So far, so good. He's very happy and working hard and doing well. I truly believe that, in most cases, you have to want it bad enough to taste it. Then you can do well almost anywhere.</p>
<p>My D was a top student in high school (top 2% in large public). When she made her college choice, she opted for a lower ranked school where she received the top scholarship.</p>
<p>She is like you Myarmin. Works very very hard. She was accepted to reachy/match schools (ie Emory, Vanderbilt) but the money offered was less.
She tends to be very critical of herself and to be honest, we were a little worried about her attending a highly competitive school. Not because she wouldn't do well--she'll work herself to death. But because, for her personality type and self-image, we wondered if she might not be better off in a place where she was well regarded going in, by virtue of the awesome scholarship program she was part of.</p>
<p>She took a very competitive major and 3 minors (pre-meds/sciences) but did very well. Just graduated magna cum laude and is attending a top graduate school in the fall. We'll never know how the environment of the other two top choices would have turned out. But for her, the reassurances of being "top dog" for awhile seems to have boosted her overall confidence.</p>
<p>That, along with the maturity of aging, has put her in a very good place now mentally. We're not worried anymore.</p>
<p>I think it is important to evaluate the choices not just on the rigor of the school (as many have pointed out, lower ranked schools can be every bit as tough), but to also consider the personality of the student. </p>
<p>Kind of goes back to cc's age old wisdom of the importance of "fit".</p>
<p>Yes, it really is all about "fit". </p>
<p>My son is attending a reach school -- Berkeley -- and after his first year has a 3.5 gpa. Not bad for a kid who was in special education most of his life and is the first kid in his hs to get into Berkeley. The thing is,the school really "gets" him and he just connects with everything the campus and student body have to offer.</p>
<p>As an upcoming student at Swarthmore, I'm even more confused now.</p>
<p>There's a sharp disconnect between two sides, one in which a special ed student manages to succeed at Berkeley while a salutarian at a nationally ranked HS is barely scraping by at Duke. Some claim that the students at top schools are not very different from those at a lower tier, and that getting an A is manageable with decent effort, but others claim that top schools are concentrated with veritable geniuses, with academic suspension within the realm of possibility even for the most able students.</p>
<p>To those who would say that Swarthmore wouldn't have admitted me unless they felt I was capable of handling the work: you don't know me.</p>
<p>Most difficult school in the US? Well at least if I do do well, it'll be the first time I've accomplished something significant.</p>
<p>While I probably don't have much to add to the discussion yet, I was admitted to Carleton College and everyone told me there was no way I would ever get in. I visited a couple of weeks ago and loved it; I felt like I fit right in. In terms of academics, I feel like I was very well prepared, and I'm sure I'll do fine (based on the classes I sat on)</p>
<p>ee33ee:</p>
<p>The reason you are hearing so many stories is that it's like the mob of blind men describing an elephant. It just depends what elephant part each guy grabs onto!</p>
<p>Every college student at every college, can make their academics as hard as they want to make them. Stick it out with a major (such as physics) when you don't have any aptitude for college math, and yes...it's going to be really, really hard. The kid in the next seat, who does math proofs for fun, is like a pig in mud...breezing through physics.</p>
<p>This kind of aptitude mismatch happens a lot in the sciences, where someone is just determined to be a pre-med with no aptitude for college science.</p>
<p>It's hard to generalize, but my daughter went to Swarthmore from just a so-so public high school. Not a bad public high school, but not top of the heap. For example, she was only able to take two AP courses. The thing that worried her the most was relatively weak preparation in writing.</p>
<p>She found Swarthmore as advertized in that it required consistent work and good study habits. She did the first-year three-day study skills seminar (at the end of Winter Break) and got some useful tips from upperclass students, especially the advice to go to the library every night after dinner as a matter of habit. She and a group of friends went like clockwork and studied alternating with study breaks to make it fun. The other great piece of advice was to prepare for each class with at least one comment or question on the assigned reading material so that participation in the discussion is also a matter of routine. She also took the freshman writing course -- not fun course, but a really good basic platform for three years of paper writing culminating in a senior thesis.</p>
<p>The only class that really kicked her butt in four years was the advanced calculus she placed into with a 5 on the Calc AB exam in high school. That advanced calc class kicked the butt of everyone she knows at every college -- from Ga Tech to Dartmouth to Havard. I think she finally eeked out some kind of high C or low B or something and wanted to frame it for her wall. She found out that she prefers math with numbers and later aced statistics.</p>
<p>Otherwise, I don't think she's ever really sweated a grade at Swarthmore. She kind of knows after the first paper what's realistic for her with each professor...some better than others. But, as long as you go to class, do most of the work, turn in the papers (preferable after getting them WA'd), grades take care of themselves. Also, she got great advice early on about how to balance a course load each semester. Don't take four reading intensive courses or you'll drown, don't beat your head against the walll as a math major if college math doesn't click for you, etc.</p>
<p>congrats to curiouser's daughter and the next successful chapter in her life..grad school. there is no formula for this issue of attending reach colleges if you do not believe you are a savant...it truly is an issue of fit, readiness and willingness to use the supports in the school. My son for instance survived his first C, dropped a course, altered his sleep and study hours from dizzy to responsible, and recovered his momentum and he never missed an offered study group and availed himself of tutors among his peers who were more greatly gifted in Calc. He is also very auditory..so he never teaches himself work on the computer..he attends all lectures..but some of his friends can teach themselves from notes if they miss a class.<br>
ee33ee (cool name?)...we spent 24 great hours at Swat recently with son number 2 and there are cultural things at Swat that lead to a 91% graduation rate which include mixing upperclassman on your freshman residence hall experience. Upperclassmen can be founts of wisdom in courseload selection and coaching, and Swat has a very supportive feeling across the divides of freshmen to senior students. Mentoring is also done among peers is my point. Review classes that Interested Dad highlighted above can be golden. Swat is a great learning community so go access all the supports they have in place. Carbarcam...write us from Carlton next year and tell those of us facing college apps again what you think of the learning community at Carlton...we will look for your posts! oh and isn't it great to see your son shine at Berkeley UCLA 77...these stories are all so instructive</p>
<p>BTW, Williams also reaches further down into the class for honors. You have to be in the top 30% to make cum laude at Harvard--top 35% at Williams.</p>
<p>Our daughter attended a very mediocre, rural public h.s. (had ONE AP course!). She had a 4.0 gpa K-12 and was the val of her h.s. class. We knew that the level of college preparedness could vary from one val to another depending on the rigor of their h.s. cirriculum. BUT, we were very reassured in D's abilities to attend a top school due to the fact that in things that you could compare on a national level, she did quite well. She was a NMF and both ACT and SAT scores were in the 99th% including an 800 on the CR portion of the ACT. D was accepted to Washington University in St. Louis - her stats were in the upper 25%, but the school is really a reach for anyone. She was accepted at our StateU and a private school ranked in the 80s by USN+WR, both with four year free rides. She was also accepted to Notre Dame as Notre Dame Scholar. When trying to decide which school to attend, she suffered what some would call a "crisis of confidence" - can I really hold my own at one of these top schools?? </p>
<p>In the end, she chose WashU and just finished her freshman year. She is a combined science/foreign language major with a music minor, along with taking the premed prereqs. She does have the pressure of keeping her gpa at a certain level incase she wants to apply to medical school, which is her thinking at the present time. She finished the year with a 3.7 gpa, receiving one B each semester (from the dreaded freshman chemistry). As others have mentioned, she encountered students, the likes of which she had never seen before. Phenoms who never attend class, but saunter in on test day and get an A. D's "social life" basically consisted of studying, study groups, review sessions, professor office hours, professor help sessions, etc. Other than her instrument lesson and group practices and concerts, she studied. And studied. And studied. She said, "Someday I will look back on this year and think it was fun". Don't get me wrong, she LOVES WashU. She loved that she sat down in a study cubicle that had "Where is John Galt when you need him" graffiti written on the wall - maybe one other student from her h.s. would have known who that was. She is blown away when watching how her study partners solve a difficult problem. She loves the diversity of the campus. In the end, that is what she wanted. To be surrounded like people who thought like she did, even if some of them take it to an even higher plane!</p>
<p>Although she knew it was hard, I think it ended up being hard in a way she hadn't anticipated. In the past, when she (rarely) encountered a topic in class that was challenging, she just studied harder. That tactic doesn't really work in an academic setting like WashU. She says she feels like she is in the process of learning a whole new way to think. The classes she found hard were the large premed prereq science "weed out" courses. Math, no problem. Upper level language classes, loved them. Aced writing. She studied more for Chemistry than all of her other classes combined. If she does go the medical school route, we will know that it is truly her passion. We know this because no one would go through what she has put herself through to succeed if it wasn't a passion.</p>
<p>Several times when things were rough during the year I would ask her, "Don't you want to come home and go to "StateU" for free?" Always wanted to give her that window of opportunity in case she wanted to bolt for the door! One e-mail I received on a particularly trying day said at the end - "And despite my exaggerated self-pity, no I don't want to come home and go to StateU, thank you very much!"</p>