<p>the GFG: I had that same problem at a SUNY…so much for that theory…</p>
<p>There can be a gulf between students coming from a working class background and students attending private colleges. It came up again with a conversation I had recently with my now graduated daughter, who did attend an elite college. Neither she nor I used the words “snobby and elitist” – our conversation focused on the difference between students who came from privilege and those (like my d.) who had to take loans and work during college. We were talking about mindsets, expectations, and work ethic.</p>
<p>The issue actually looms quite large because of its impact on lifestyle. My kids had to work during college for all of their spending money (including cost of food). Because my d. was attending college in a very expensive city, that meant a LOT of hours put into work --for my d. always involving multiple jobs. You can paint it anyway you want, but when one student’s weekly routine includes 15-20 hours of paid employment, and another student does not have that factor in their life and is also getting a generous monthly allowance from a parent, then there is a difference in basic expectations. If the balance at the school happens to be tipped in such away that the cash-poor, working students are a significant minority, they will be aware of the difference. </p>
<p>Again, I am not using the word “snobby”. My d. has many college friends with wealthy backgrounds. The point isn’t that they were mean or judgmental to her – the point is that there were many times that she had to turn down social invitations either because the planned event couldn’t fit within her budget or because she had to work during the hours that the event was planned. Her best source of income was from a job where she was often working evenings, weekends or holidays-- so there would have been plenty of times that scenario was repeated. </p>
<p>My d. feels very happy that she is the beneficiary of a very rigorous education at a top school. Unlike some of her more privileged classmates, she has never taken that for granted and she feels she has a much better, career-track post-grad job in part because of a strong background of work experience accumulated over the college years. So the “fit” thing really doesn’t tell the whole picture. I think in my d’s eyes it’s more of a maturity thing.</p>
<p>I get what you’re saying Pizzagirl, absolutely. My mentioning of Tory Burch was a little tongue in cheek; I had never heard of it before this year probably because they don’t have an outlet store and are not represented in TJ Maxx 
When I was reading some campus reviews, it was specifically mentioned as a popular brand at the type of schools on that Entitlement Index Score. </p>
<p>I also don’t think that entitled=snobby.</p>
<p>Probably not intentional,but this is exactly what i am talking about…
" Unlike some of her more privileged classmates, she has never taken that for granted…" </p>
<p>How do you know the’priveleged classmates took it for granted?..</p>
<p>You don’t need to be “rich” to be an unbearable snob, or even wear particularly “nice” clothes. It seems like a lot of frat guys/sorority babes at my undergraduate institution were middle-class and wore beach stuff (sandals, visors, short shorts, etc.) and thought they were just infinitely better than the non-Greek students.</p>
<p>Even members or relatively low economic classes can be heirs of higher social orders, although the tendency in the nouveau-riche (and America in general) is to conflate the two.</p>
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<p>What on earth is “snobby” about sandals, visors, short shorts (I’m assuming you went to school in a warm climate where such attire was appropriate)? </p>
<p>And how did you know they “thought they were infinitely better than non-Greeks”? Perhaps they just didn’t care about you one way or the other, other than in the generic sense of not wishing you harm. I don’t particularly spend my time “caring” about whether I’m better than people I’m just not interested in.</p>
<p>Some of the least snobby people are the ones that may be considered wealthy. Wealthy is a relative term that means something different to everyone.
Saying that wealthy people are snobs is like saying poor people have a chip on their shoulder. Asinine!</p>
<p>^ My cousin doesn’t have a snobby bone in her entire body, and she’s a multimillionaire! Of course, with just a few million in the bank she isn’t REALLY rich …</p>
<p>It’s interesting that wealthy students are portrayed as snobby and elitist by individuals who are looking to avoid them. It would appear that snobby and elitist goes both ways.</p>
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<p>Because when my daughter was working hard at her job + internships + all of the hours of studying needed to maintain her 3.9 GPA, she had classmates whose parents were paying $55K annually for them to attend plus giving them generous allowances who were drinking and partying. Now, more than a year out of college, there are some former classmates who still do not have jobs and are not even trying to find work, simply because they have plenty of money without working.</p>
<p>And I said “some” not “all”.</p>
<p>Every time I read these accusations that elite schools are snobby, I get so mad that my monocle steams up!</p>
<p>Seriously, there are snobby people at a lot of schools. But I don’t think they are dominant at many schools, including the Ivies. The kids who are dominant are the ones who are super-active in visible campus organizations, and that has little to do with being rich or coming from an “elite” family.</p>
<p>And I have to say that at Yale, at least, this was the case 30 years ago as well. For the vast majority of students, it just didn’t matter that somebody else was rich. There might be organizations at some of the schools that are the province of the rich and connected (although even that’s less true), but most of the students couldn’t care less about those things.</p>
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Actually, my d’s experience does not suggest that contacts with the rich and privileged via a school network is particularly useful for job connections. The problem is that those kids aren’t working so they haven’t formed the connections that would be particularly useful for a recent grad. And they are pretty much clueless when it comes to networking, job requirements, etc. Their parents may have high end employment and great connections, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they have any direct influence over hiring at their companies – nor that they are particularly likely to offer up help to their kid’s friends, even if they did. The only time my d. ever got a position through “connections” was via a high school friend of modest means who happened to have an uncle working at an agency where my d. wanted an unpaid internship. </p>
<p>Those alumni connections may become more useful down the line professionally. One of my d’s current job responsibilities is event planning, and not too long ago she made a connection with an alum from her school who was a scheduled speaker. The alum is much older – probably graduated in the 1950’s - but really warmed to my daughter, and of course the alum is someone who is highly accomplished professionally, in my d’s field. So I am not denying the value of a network and connections – I just think that the way in which it becomes valuable is misunderstood. I know that in my own profession - law- it was meaningless when we were all graduating and in competition with one another for the same jobs – but 20, 30+ years down the line when former classmates have become senior partners at major law firms, judges, or are holding political office, it’s a different story. But it’s still not a “get a job” thing – it’s a matter of how the network becomes an asset to someone who already has a job.</p>
<p>I agree. It’s really not as though Will Working-Class winds up being a roomie with Thurston Howell Jr and gets his first job through Thurston Howell Senior’s network of BFF’s.</p>
<p>Wow. I started this thread earlier this morning and just now came back to check it. At least it has people talking! Anyway, lots of great comments and insights. However many people recommended that we visit and we will as much as we can but the budget only allows for a few visits by plane. </p>
<p>The main schools on our list are Georgetown, Tulane, Santa Clara University, Marquette, University of Denver, St. Olaf, University of Iowa and maybe Bucknell and Wake Forest.</p>
<p><em>pssst</em> quiet reminder…</p>
<p>“on my son’s list”</p>
<p>or</p>
<p>“on my daughter’s list”</p>
<p>Tee hee. Thanks Deborah T – I need those reminders frequently. Sometimes I worry that I’m trying to live vicariously but mostly it’s that these high school boys aren’t always the best at doing all of the due diligence that I think needs to be done. Ok – stepping back now.</p>
<p>@ cbug - </p>
<p>My middle son wasn’t good at initial research. I found that if I gathered initial information and send him emails with website links that was a good start. I would send articles that were relevant to the school…sports, awards given to students in the department of his intended area of study, etc. Anything to get him interested and moving around websites, hearing more about the schools culture, whatever. You can facilitate without overstepping. </p>
<p>Many of us here find a way to be an executive manager of sorts. Our kids make all the decisions and direct things. We help with organization, travel plans, a nudge here and there, open ended questions, etc. There is no generally agreement on this. Some kids don’t need it, some do. You’ll find what works for your son.</p>
<p>You’ll do fine. :)</p>
<p>cbug, my comments about a gulf between working /non-working student was in respect to elite schools that offer only need-based aid. That means that there is an either/or dichotomy at the schools — all students from high-income families are full pay, all students on financial aid are from relatively lower income backgrounds – and there are very few students from the upper-middle income group that would have difficulty coming up with the tuition but can’t qualify for much need-based aid. </p>
<p>Most of the schools your son is looking at seem to be schools that add merit money to the mix, so it is possible that the dynamic there may be much different. There may be more students in the upper middle range, and even students from privileged backgrounds who have to keep their GPA’s up to continue to receive a need-based scholarship, and thus may have a different attitude than students who are relying on parents to pay the whole amount. I don’t know – I just would think that you would get a somewhat different mix of students in that setting. The “real” COA at some of those schools, when you factor in the average amount of merit aid, may be something that is more within reach of the upper middle class families. </p>
<p>Anyway, I think those are all wonderful schools you are looking at – I just want to say that I am not sure my d’s experience would apply to any of those schools.</p>
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<p>My parents and my IL’s paid my / my husband’s way at elite schools, including med school for H. Trust me, we were incredibly grateful for the gift we received. We are paying it forward by doing the same for our kids, and trust me, they understand completely the incredible gift / fortune that they had in a) being able to pick colleges without regard to finances and b) being able to concentrate on their studies and extracurriculars without worrying about working the part-time job at the library or cafeteria to make it happen. </p>
<p>I went to school with plenty of full-pay kids. Like me, we were very conscious that our classes cost $x per hour; we didn’t skip, we didn’t party and sleep through classes. We were quite aware that we had it nicer than our friends who were working 3 jobs to pay the tuition bill, and we had no sense of entitlement at all.</p>
<p>“The main schools on our list are Georgetown, Tulane, Santa Clara University, Marquette, University of Denver, St. Olaf, University of Iowa and maybe Bucknell and Wake Forest.”</p>
<p>Nine schools is a pretty manageable number. Georgetown is generally a very tough admit, and Bucknell sticks out as the only “bubble school” on the list. If your S can order the schools, there’s a good chance he’ll only need to visit the top two choices that accept him.</p>