When a Parent thinks a child is pushing too hard.

Parents Forum
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<p>I think it’s possible for this to be the right choice for a particular kind of person/student. When I was a senior in HS I needed to be very busy. I took the hardest courses I could, including 2 advanced language courses at a university. I played a lot of sports, and coached in the youth leagues. I did a lot of other things. I did homework constantly and I was always on the go.</p>

<p>My very capable D1 took a very hard load senior year and had a ton of ECs, plus a job, and in the spring she suddenly added a sport “because it would be fun.” She was so busy that when she ever sat for a moment, she fell asleep instantly. </p>

<p>Neither of us took 6 APs like this (they weren’t offered) but we did everything we could, the most we could, the hardest we could.</p>

<p>Why? Part of it was that we were trying for the most competitive schools. But it went beyond that. As we grew up, we were the kinds of kids who wanted that kind of intensity. Senior year was a chance to work very hard at a high level of competence - I would take issue with the person who says senior year in band is a time to coast: both my D and I were musicians, not heading to music school, but took the hardest route in performance, solo work, even professional gigs, because we COULD. Also my D had several leadership roles in music, arranged songs for her a capella group, etc. This mattered a lot to her.</p>

<p>For both of us it was about meaning. My D said she finally felt like she hoped to feel in college: a high-powered student doing work that meant something. For me it was that I was also dying to work at a college level and got a chance to jump-start. Neither one of us was worried about having fun; we had time for friends, but that wasn’t a real priority.</p>

<p>Also neither one of us particularly loved HS (like most kids), and being so busy was a way to get through. Too much downtime and we’d remember how much we didn’t want to be there. Instead of partying and goofing off, we channeled that energy into achievement.</p>

<p>My D2 is not as high-powered a student, but she, too, has chosen a very hard curriculum senior year. She wants to feel mature and show she can handle things, in her own way. She has many ECs, mostly in the arts, and she wants to succeed at the highest level in that, too - such as state/national music competitions, local professional theater, creative projects of her own. </p>

<p>I don’t know this girl at all; maybe she drives herself too hard, I can’t say. But I think if she’s handled this before, she’ll handle it again, even with the college apps. This is how she is. To drop the intensity senior year could be very deflating, boring, and frustrating. I remember my D1 talking to her cousins at Christmas her senior year (one her age, the other two older). All of them had taken a light senior year “to enjoy it.” None of them had aspirations to a top college; they’ve all done fine at lower-tiered schools and are very happy. She sat there dumbfounded, though - she felt no regrets at the load she was taking, because that’s who SHE was. She couldn’t have switched to someone who spent senior year taking fun electives and hanging out with friends “for old times’ sake.” She had other things on her list, even if they thought she was being silly.</p>

<p>People saw me in HS scrambling with my college language homework every minute I could find, and I’m sure they thought I was silly, too. But it was who I was. And if you are heading for a top university, as my D1 and I did, you do need to be ready for that kind of workload, and to enjoy it. You might as well see what you’re capable of in HS. </p>

<p>And I’ll say as well that I wasn’t the smartest person at my university by any means, but I had the easiest time with my academic demands from the start of anyone I knew - even though I had mono when I began college, and slept at least 12 hours a day (and no, I didn’t get mono because I had overworked myself … but I won’t tell that story here!).</p>

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<p>I still say that the viability of the OP’s daughter’s plans depends a lot on the time demand of the AP courses, which is highly variable from school to school. There are apparently some people who can get along perfectly well with 3 to 4 hours of sleep a night. For most students, staying up until 2 or 3 am and then getting up around 6 am to head to school is really not workable on a consistent basis. Yet there are some school districts where this is not abnormal for top students. I’d be concerned about someone who fell asleep instantly whenever sitting still for a moment, taking that statement literally. Sleep deprivation does have bad effects.</p>

<p>An additional consideration is that colleges expect a student to adhere to the senior-year course schedule that goes on the application forms. This is appropriate in the sense that no one would want a student to represent that he/she was taking 3 AP’s and then suddenly drop to 0 AP’s after the applications were submitted. But in the case of the OP’s daughter, the expectation creates additional pressure to stick with the original plan. The online courses can’t be dropped because they are required for graduation. They could only be substituted for some of the AP’s.</p>

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<p>Forgot to add a consequence of limited sleep at night: QMP’s high school had a shockingly large number of students falling asleep in class. This happened very rarely in my high school, in the “olden days.” </p>

<p>A few of the students who qualified for the AIME (competitive math exam, en route to the Math Olympiad) went to the testing room and then slept through the exam. A student could lose points for falling asleep in class, but the AIME became free sleeping time. I still find this troublesome.</p>

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<p>I do agree, and I meant to mention the curriculum has a lot to do with it. But some of these kids can just turn on the power when they need it - a high level of efficiency and concentration is often one of their gifts (I wasn’t myself so much extremely smart as highly, highly organized and very fast at completing work).</p>

<p>When I was in HS I did all that I did along with being a professional musician and obsessive folkdancer who was out playing music or dancing (wholesome stuff!) most weeknights, which kept me up until midnight, and up again at 6 to go to school. I’m not trying to brag, but I think we forget how energetic HS kids can be. I’d go from school, to soccer practice, to my college class from 5:30-7:30, to a dance from 8-11. I was the one on the sidelines of games scribbling homework. I had a job on weekends, too. </p>

<p>It all sounds crazy, but I try to remind myself that we are old and stodgy and it’s hard to remember having that kind of energy. I did good work in HS, too. </p>

<p>My D was never at a danger point of sleep deprivation. She would fall asleep when she “turned off” her head - trying to take a movie night break with her was humorous, because she slept through everything. But she was so happy - and she’s very sensible, now a rising college senior who’s really managed excellently. Her last semester in HS she even added another honors class and said it was the best time she ever had there, finally a pace that was right for her (as I said, the HS here is not as rigorous as many that CC kids attend, but there are lots of kids who have tons of homework - my D is capable of doing things lickety split, fortunately).</p>

<p>I’m just joining in here - I think everyone is right, depending on the kid. My point is to make a case for people like me and my D who really did like that kind of “overload” in HS. Both of us would have been - and were - very insulted by people who suggested we take it easy. A GC at my school said to me every year, “Gee, you could have all As if you just didn’t always take the hardest and the most classes possible.” That just burned me up, and also made me laugh. He just didn’t get it. And this was a HS that sent numerous kids to Ivies every year.</p>

<p>Finally I went to a university where that kind of drive was respected - and actually I was able to sit back and “coast” a bit there, because I was so well-suited to that kind of mindset and pace. It ended up being a very fun experience for me, although for other people it probably would have been torture. No judgments - people are just different is all.</p>

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<p>Thank you EmmyBet, you speak very eloquently for these kids.</p>

<p>QM - I understand your points, but it certainly sounds like you have a much more challenging HS than my kids. My kids really had to take AP classes to be challenged. They were reasonable classes and prepared them well for the AP tests but doubt they were the rigor you describe.</p>

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<p>Hi Everyone…I have read every message here and I have absorbed every response. So without making myself crazy and addressing each message via the original poster, I will just address what I think is out there.</p>

<p>1) I have chosen to trust my daughter’s instincts and allow her to scoop on her plate what she thinks she can handle.</p>

<p>2) Why is she taking these classes. First, from the schedule perspective it was asked why she did not take these last year. She had a full AP load last year with AP Music T, AP Cal AB, AP Biology, APUSH, Ap English and AP Psych. She scored all 4’s or 5’s on those tests. She also took a pretty full AP load Sophmore year too. Why does she push herself? She has always been a take the bull by the horn kind of girl. Pure nature. She does have top schools on her list, but would be 100% satisfied with her safety. To her it is about learning and her love for learning. </p>

<p>3) I calculate that Marching Band and her leadership position with the band takes up 16 physical on-campus hours outside of class and around 10 hours at home on mastery of music. Add 6 additional hours on competition weeks (3 during the fall semester) </p>

<p>4) AP workloads at this school are heavy. Max sleep MOST nights is 5-6 hours. A handful of “all-nighters” last year and I suspect a handful this year. To her an all-nighter is not some weird merit badge, but a “just what it takes” mentality. Sunday is always sleep catch up day. (I know, you really can’t “catch-up” on sleep)</p>

<p>5) She watches about 2 hours of TV a week. That is when I know she is stressed. She will absorb into some mindless MTV reality crap for a breather…lol. I would also say she devotes about 15 minutes to facebook each day.</p>

<p>6) She actually has a steady boyfriend that attends a school locally, but not her school. Last spring they would go weeks without a date, as she made it clear that school is her priority and he is cool with that as school is his priority too.</p>

<p>7) To complete her online courses, I think she will need about 4 hours each week to pull it off. She is a super fast reader and these course are really just busy work for her.</p>

<p>8) She is devoted to physical fitness and spends an hour a day on that. I think it is a stress buster too.</p>

<p>9) She works 6 hours every Sunday at the hospital. She would do this in her sleep. It is what she lives for. She loves that darn hospital. </p>

<p>The bottom line she is just a HUGE type A-personality that thrives on pressure, challange and learning. Through conversations with her I do believe if she were to take Health and Communications in school, she would be so bored that she would just go nuts. Does these mean she will just glide through this year…NO. Will we have breakdowns…probably. But they will be few and far between. I guess the true answer will come at the end of the semester, when the grades are in and ED decisions come around and rolling admission schools decisions come around. Then and only then can she second guess herself if her results are not what she was hoping for. But atleast they are her decisions and her outcomes.</p>

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<p>^ Your last sentence sums it up well.</p>

<p>You could almost be talking about my daughter–except for her it is violin, not band, plus 3 varsity sports (one each season) and no boyfriend. We tease her about her mindless TV–silly girl stuff, Mythbusters or House. I like House, but the other stuff I can’t stand. It is stress release for her.</p>

<p>Good luck to you and to her!</p>

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<p>Good for you, OP! Thank you, collegeshopping, for doing this thread. I am glad I wasn’t the only parent speaking up about how gifted kids are different and what is difficult for most can be easy for them. High IQ people often need less sleep as well. So what if she gets a B or two? My son was a slacker his senior year- he didn’t bother doing work he didn’t need to for learning the material and his grades showed it. Boring AP work didn’t grab him. Unfortunately there in no corollary with time expected by AP teachers and amount learned by the best students. Nor with work done. Son spent too much time goofing off on the computer instead of doing homework senior year- source of parent-child battles. All strong willed, glad that’s ancient history.</p>

<p>Interesting fact- son blew off his AP Chemistry second semester of senior year because he didn’t like the way the teacher taught, he got a C in it a month after taking the AP exam he got a 5 on. His cousin in a different state and year worked hard, got an A and only a 3 on the Chemistry AP exam, their school started weeks before son’s- they had more class time before AP exams. Both boys had the same good composite score on the EXPLORE test taken for the Midwest Talent Search while in 5th grade (at different ages and years). AP tests don’t require taking the course to get a 5 as well. College credit is given for the AP test result, not the HS grade.</p>

<p>Girls tend to do better- my experience and others backs this up. Gifted twins of friend- girl over excelled (doing far more than needed) while her brother did the minimum to get the A (no +/-‘s given). Intensity and drive differentiate those of equal intelligence. I can see where our son will end up based on parents’ and his willingness to be intense about life. That girl will be a formidable lawyer, her brother a good medical specialist. Their younger sib in top college, likely to excel like her sisiter. My son, a math major, never took more chemistry- a disappointment to chemistry major mom (and he never let us help with homework since at least middle school). That decision fits his interests, not a consequence of a bad teacher.</p>

<p>It wouldn’t surprise me if the OP’s D used her boring time in classes to do her homework. That, coupled with her speed at reading, comprehension abilities and other organizational skills means fewer hours of homework than standard predictions. In college she may take on a lot and remain intense. Others, like my son, find time to excel at difficult courses they like, do okay in others and find time for distance running, plenty of library fiction (college libraries have these books, too) and computer reading of numerous topics unrelated to his field- well versed in what’s happening in many fields and current events. The intense people move our society forward much more than those like my son, even though he is likely to make contributions.</p>

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<p>I, too, thank you for starting this discussion. I appreciate how people have been thoughtful and honest exploring this difficult subject.</p>

<p>Oh, man, did my D use “boring time” to get work done! She had it down to a science! Plus she always had work with her during music rehearsals.</p>

<p>The thing I’d say now, based on the previous post, is that it can be hard to understand different definitions of value. wis75 - I don’t really agree that intense people contribute more than others; I think it depends on what the contribution is. We do need intense people, but it’s important to appreciate all of the different levels, and styles, of intensity.</p>

<p>My second D is not academically driven; she picks and chooses what interests her, doesn’t work as fast, tends to get more caught up in the emotional and doesn’t always just put her head down and deliver. She may go to a pretty high-powered school, in an arts area, but she may end up somewhere no one’s heard of, and her definition of success either way is going to be very different. </p>

<p>Having spent time with her coming to terms with who she is, following a Dad, Mom and sister who are all “intense” people (based on the definition in this thread), I have learned to see the other kinds of contributions she makes, and the value in a broad understanding of hard work and caring. </p>

<p>I also think that our HS’s favor kids who are math and science achievers - they tend to be able to get As in English and History, even if it’s not their strong suit, because of the way that is graded, but a kid who isn’t quantitative gets major dings in achievement and can decide they are not capable very early on, no matter how much they can do.</p>

<p>But this is a bit off-subject. I think we’ve talked very comprehensively about how people decide how “intense” they are and want to be; I’m just remarking from your post that now that we’re more comfortable with the “super-intensity” we have to remember that other styles are valuable, too. It’s a lesson I’ve been long in learning, and that my D2 is grappling with every day on her own.</p>

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<p>Thanks for describing smart kids in more details, as most of us don’t have any experience with them, certainly I know of no one like this boy in real life (<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065274055-post1091.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065274055-post1091.html&lt;/a&gt;), a kid with 22 APs, all 5s, SAT 2400, and loaded ECs and achievements. Hard to believe these kids exist. And good luck to parents who have to deal with them.</p>