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There's nothing wrong with intelligent black students at elite universities. I have stated nothing that suggests otherwise. I have, however, stated that most Blacks at elites are not the descendants of American slaves but are either immigrants or the children of immigrants. I then state that this is most definitely an unintended consequence of racial preferences. Affirmative action was supposed to help people who had historically been denied opportunity. Are the children of African and Carribean immigrants the descendants of the people who suffered under American slavery and segregation? You and I both know the answer to that is NO.
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<p>I'll just ignore the part about why affirmative action was created because I don't particularly agree with that, but I have no desire to argue that. As for the second part, the answer is not NO. How do you think Africans got to the carribean? Do you think they decided to go on a vacation over there? Perhaps they thought about starting new lives in the promised land? BS, they were brought over as slaves. As for the African immigrants, they had a jolly good time over in Africa too, what with imperialism and all and the plundering of their homelands. </p>
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It is how they identified with their African or Carribean roots in the context of being an American that contributes to their unique viewpoints.
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<p>Yes... exactly. That's why we want to make sure their viewpoints are represented on a college campus... as well as the viewpoint of people who are descendents of white Americans, descendents of slaves, Asian-Americans, Native Americans... you name it!</p>
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Are you even remotely suggesting that Asians do not contribute to a diverse environment? Please correct me if I have misunderstood you.
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<p>Lord no! I wouldn't dream of suggesting that. I was suggesting that if affirmative action benifits weren't offered, Asian-Americans would still get into college in large numbers. "Bumps" are only offered to races like African-Americans, Latinos and Native Americans because fewer of them would get into various colleges without affirmative action.</p>
<p>Well some colleges try to promote women in engineering, URMs in science, etc. Maybe we need to find PhD degree programs with very few Asian graduates and promote Asians in those fields.</p>
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I'll just ignore the part about why affirmative action was created because I don't particularly agree with that, but I have no desire to argue that. As for the second part, the answer is not NO. How do you think Africans got to the carribean? Do you think they decided to go on a vacation over there? Perhaps they thought about starting new lives in the promised land? BS, they were brought over as slaves. As for the African immigrants, they had a jolly good time over in Africa too, what with imperialism and all and the plundering of their homelands.
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<p>I anticipated a similar response, and that is why I prefaced "slavery and segregation" with American.</p>
<p>Yes, I am aware that many Black Carribeans are descendants of African slaves. Their ancestors suffered deplorable treatment, I acknowledge this. However, is the United States obligated to preferentially treat them? Is it the responsibility of the United States to address a historical grievance that falls outside of our borders?</p>
<p>So, no, the ancestors of modern Black Carribeans did not decide to have a vacation in that area. But, the ones who choose to emigrate to our nation TODAY are very much thinking about starting new lives in the promised land. As are all who voluntarily emigrate.</p>
<p>Yes, I am aware that many European nations in the late nineteenth century sought to conquer the African continent. I am aware that some cultures were lost completely and can never be recovered. Again, is the United States obligated to preferentially treat the children of African immigrants? To make sure there's no confusion, I'm talking about American-born sons and daughters of parents who were born in Africa. Is it our responsibility to address historical grievances that exist across an ocean?</p>
<p>I never brought up historical arguments in our discussion. I don't think affirmative action is needed as a "reperations" for past-wrongs. I think that's the wrong way of doing things. Although, if we want to get technical, there are many hours of unpaid labor that could have been inhereted by someone... but that's irrelevent.</p>
<p>Which is why I'm going to ignore your above post, I don't see it as relevent. It doesn't refute any of my points at all.</p>
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As for the African immigrants, they had a jolly good time over in Africa too, what with imperialism and all and the plundering of their homelands.
<p>Here is a link to a scholarly article that summarizes the legality of using race as a consideration in admissions after the Univ. of Michigan decision:</p>
<p>Notice that there is no mention of "correcting past wrongs," etc as the rationale for promoting racial diversity. As JB suggests, I think you need to leave that argument out of it.</p>
Why do colleges consider interviews? They don't count for much, and many colleges (Duke included) have stated that they'd get rid of them if there wouldn't be an uproar.</p>
<p>I didn't say it was insignificant everywhere. In fact, at some places (like Bowdoin), it's pretty important. I merely stated that it was very rarely a major factor, and it can't even be always counted on to be a tipping factor. A need for a top-notch oboist could very well trump an URM, for instance.</p>
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How do you think Africans got to the carribean? Do you think they decided to go on a vacation over there?
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LOL. That reminds me of an anecdote my IB History told me. One year she had taught a girl with a typical German-sounding last name. After asking the girl if she was from Germany, the girl innocently replied that her grandfather was from Germany, but he had decided to move to Brazil to start his family. :eek:</p>
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Then, why did you mention the role of the Carribean Islands in the slave trade? Why did you mention European neo-imperialism?</p>
<p>My post does in fact refute your points, unless you just decided to randomly throw out slavery and imperialism with no backing.</p>
<p>If that was your intention, then I can't refute anything because you don't have any points to begin with.
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<p>Are you ****ting me? You brought that stuff up. Not me. You were asking about why it should benifit them too when they hadn't suffered (at the hands of America apparently.. a part I didn't catch). I simply answered that they had suffered. That was never part of my argument. My argument, has always been that affirmative action has been here to a) enahnce diversity b) correct for current racism problems in the US.</p>
<p>As for the canuck, did you honestly just cite something written by the John Williams Pope Center?</p>
<p>Dr. McWhorter actually answers several "held as gospel" beliefs from supporters of affirmative action, especially about the values of "diversity."</p>