When does diversity shopping become racism?

Applying to College
141

<p>fabrizio:</p>

<p>I wasn't there, but you said a cop was directing traffic and the driver tried to take a shortcut. I would never do that with a cop directing traffic. I assume he/she would be angry with me. I try not to anger cops.</p>

<p>The part about the black kids is only your interpretation. You said the cop was scared of them. Maybe he was, or maybe you were scared of them and projected your own feelings onto the cop. Maybe the cop realized that he just didn't have the time to deal with it and do his job. There are a lot of reasons why this could have happened, but your jumping to racism on the cop's part is ridiculous. That's only one hypothesis, and not a very well supported one, at that.</p>

<p>Now, if this were an ongoing pattern, such as the sort of patterns the Hmong face in Michigan, it would be different. But it's not.</p>

142

<p>fabrizio:</p>

<p>Racial preferences is misleading because it tends to be applied only to certain URMs and only in certain situations. "Racial preference," as a term, is very rarely (if ever) applied to preferences afforded to whites.</p>

143

<p>Tarhunt,</p>

<p>"Short-cut" of shorts. Please allow me to elaborate.</p>

<p>As I recall (it was three years ago, I'm pretty sure the officer has been fired as I haven't seen him since), there were about three car lines waiting to go through one exit. My friend switched from one line to another. The officer then stopped by and made his remark. Shortly after, a Cherokee with four Black guys and very loud rap music pulls up on the rightmost line. I should mention that the speed of the vehicle was far above 15 mph. The officer is visibly afraid and leaves us to resume his work.</p>

<p>Why did he not address the driver of the SUV?</p>

<p>Brings us to the next point...</p>

<p>
[quote]
The part about the black kids is only your interpretation. You said the cop was scared of them. Maybe he was, or maybe you were scared of them and projected your own feelings onto the cop. Maybe the cop realized that he just didn't have the time to deal with it and do his job. There are a lot of reasons why this could have happened, but your jumping to racism on the cop's part is ridiculous. That's only one hypothesis, and not a very well supported one, at that.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This paragraph is, simply put, hypocritical.</p>

<p>Observation. Four Black guys are in a Jeep Cherokee. The driver quickly pulls into the rightmost line. The stereo is just blasting rap music. The guys are having fun and swaying to the music.</p>

<p>The officer sees them, thinks, and then leaves to resume his work.</p>

<p>Interpretation. The officer was scared of four big Black men but was not scared of two (smaller) Asian men.</p>

<p>Neither I nor my friend was scared of four co-students who were visibly enjoying some music. Even if we were, we said nothing. You're giving a lot of credit to this police officer to think that he can react to our "projected feelings."</p>

<p>If he didn't have to time to deal with them, why did he have "the time" to deal with us?</p>

<p>My jumping to racism on the officer's part is ridiculous, huh? So, the next time a Black man gets pulled on the road, it's just duty and not racism? I mean, that's what you're saying, isn't it?</p>

<p>I'm totally unfamiliar with discrimination Hmong face in Michigan. All I know is that Vincent Chin, who was not an American Hmong, was killed by disgruntled auto workers. The judge gave them a slap on the wrists.</p>

144

<p>Fabrizio:</p>

<p>A projection is not what others see in you, but what YOU project into a situation that may or may not be there.</p>

<p>We had been having a good conversation until you insisted on calling me a hypocrite. I'm done. I thought you were discussing in good faith. I was wrong.</p>

<p>Bye.</p>

145

<p>Ha. So, it's OK for you to label my "interpretation" as ridiculous, but it's not OK for me to call your paragraph hypocritical?</p>

<p>Can we spell D-O-U-B-L-E S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D?</p>

146

<p>I've become convinced that it is actually conservatives who are the true heirs to the Civil Rights Movement. They have properly atoned for their previous inaction by supporting equal treatment (c.f. racial preferences).</p>

<p>Now, it's the liberals who are reactionaries.</p>

<p>When Blacks are discriminated against, they ostentatiously proclaim their commitment against discrimination.</p>

<p>When Asians are discriminated against, they're utterly unconvinced.</p>

<p>"You sure? Maybe you're wrong."</p>

<p>"Grow some skin!"</p>

<p>"Get over it!"</p>

<p>"So what? It's just a joke. No big deal."</p>

<p>And, why is it that these comments aren't made when Blacks are discriminated against?</p>

<p>Redemptive liberals...</p>

147

<p>Can you spell W-I-N-D-B-A-G?</p>

148

<p>Sure can. Windbag. Yay!</p>

149

<p>fabrizio, there was a recent article by Duke's Campus Life and Learning Project about this. It mentioned the students who reported discrimination during their first two years at Duke.</p>

<p>Black: 44%
Bi/Multi-racial: 28%
Asian & Latino: 19%
White: 11%</p>

150

<p>fabrizio, one major flaw I see in your interpretation is that you say that the officer was afraid of four black men. Here is my question.... why in God's name is a policeman afraid of anyone? Police-shootings are really very rare, and even more rare in such a laid-back situation such as the one you described. The worst that could happen "to the cop" is that they resist arrest. Policemen aren't stupid. Cops in general aren't scared of black people, usually its the other way around (see: Rodney King.... racism much?).</p>

<p>Tarhunt has it dead on about why the term "racial preferences" is misleading.</p>

<p>I support affirmative action for two main reasons.
1) Enhancing diversity
2) Correcting for CURRENT racism</p>

151

<p>why in God's name is a policeman afraid of anyone?</p>

<p>JB, you should get out more. Shot, stabbed, beaten, taunted, sued.</p>

152

<p>I can't say it much better than TourGuide as far answering your question.</p>

<p>"Taunted" would likely have applied had the officer been brave enough to address the four students.</p>

<p>Enhancing diversity, I always love that as a "reason."</p>

<p>Exactly what kind of "diversity" are we talking about here? You mean how most of the Blacks at elites are children of immigrants and that their skin color automatically ensures different viewpoints? I bet you the redemptive liberals of the 1970s didn't see the first one coming.</p>

<p>Correcting for current racism. So, you're advocating fighting racism with, <em>gasp</em>, MORE racism? Great idea.</p>

153

<p>TourGuide, I think you might need to get out too now and then. Of course police are at risk.... but being a traffic cop isn't exactly known for being a high risk job if you know what I mean.</p>

<p>And fabrizio, please look at my first post in this thread in response to that BS claim that affirmative action is racism. Affirmative action is NOT racism.</p>

<p>Oh, and god forbid there should be intelligent black males (whether they be children of immigrants or not) at elite universities.</p>

154

<p>Just_Browsing,
You do understand that Asians currently face discrimination as well right? And if it is for correcting current discrimination, it should be taking Caucasian spots and giving them to URMs. Right now it's simply taking spots from Asian and giving them to URMs (as a study done by Princeton professors suggests).</p>

<hr>

<p>Racism - Discrimination or prejudice based on race.</p>

<p>It's not prejudice, but it's certainly discrimination. And yes, it happens to be based on race.</p>

155

<p>I greatly understand that Asian-Americans face discrimination. Rather blatant too. However, as I said, I support affirmative action for two reasons. While one of them should suggest that Asian-Americans should also be benificiaries (correcting current racism), the other suggests that there is no need for them to be benificiaries (diversity).</p>

<p>Also, the whole notion of taking "spots" is just language that opponents of affirmative action use to make it look like racial quotas (which it is not). Nobody and no race has any "spot" in any university. </p>

<p>As for the Princeton study, that study was clearly written for the purpose of making affirmative action look bad, that was painfully evident in the language they used (such as trying to make it look like admissions officers physically added and subtracted points from the SAT).</p>

156

<p>Just_Browsing,</p>

<p>There's nothing wrong with intelligent black students at elite universities. I have stated nothing that suggests otherwise. I have, however, stated that most Blacks at elites are not the descendants of American slaves but are either immigrants or the children of immigrants. I then state that this is most definitely an unintended consequence of racial preferences. Affirmative action was supposed to help people who had historically been denied opportunity. Are the children of African and Carribean immigrants the descendants of the people who suffered under American slavery and segregation? You and I both know the answer to that is NO.</p>

<p>It's likely that a good number of the immigrants came after the Civil Rights Movement and thus have no familial ties (that they know of) to any participants in that cause. Why are they being preferentially treated? Because their skin color automatically ensures a different viewpoint? Nay, their skin color absolutely does not. It is how they identified with their African or Carribean roots in the context of being an American that contributes to their unique viewpoints.</p>

<p>
[quote]

I greatly understand that Asian-Americans face discrimination. Rather blatant too. However, as I said, I support affirmative action for two reasons. While one of them should suggest that Asian-Americans should also be benificiaries (correcting current racism), the other suggests that there is **no need* for them to be benificiaries (diversity)*.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Are you even remotely suggesting that Asians do not contribute to a diverse environment? Please correct me if I have misunderstood you.</p>

157

<p>

Nobody is "taking" spots from anyone. With as many qualified applicants as the elite schools get, many perfectly qualified applicants get turned down. In any case, how would you even begin to back that up without resorting to SAT scores (which aren't that valuable anyway)? </p>

<p>In any case, do you have any idea whatsoever how much of a role race plays? Many colleges, the University of Chicago among them, have publicly stated that they don't have the faintest idea how many students of each race were admitted or rejected until they compile all the decisions. What about Caltech? It's usually has only a handful of black freshmen, and several times it hasn't had any at all. The "race factor" is blown entirely out of proportion- and unnecessarily so. </p>

<p>If many people (of all races) weren't wrapped up in prestige, they'd apply to a reasonable number of schools (6 or fewer), applicants pools would shrink, and more applicants would be admitted. </p>

<p>Some people try to defend themselves by saying that as tough as it is to get into colleges today, they need to apply lots of places to get in. Well, guess what happens. More people apply, the college admits fewer people, and selectivity goes down. The next year people apply to even MORE colleges. It's entirely out of hand.</p>

<p>I certainly didn't benefit from AA, but I'm not opposed to it. Then again, I'm actually out of high school and have seen the advantages of it.</p>

158

<p>fabrizio, is it ok if you don't bash the liberals? Because I'm a liberal and that's totally not cool.</p>

<p>Anyway, back the the main point. I don't see how, though others say Asians can't possibly know what it's like to be black, they assume URMs know exactly what it's like to be Asian? I've seen people who, in all seriousness, expected me to do their homework and know kung-fu (ok, so the second part wasn't serious, but FOR GOD'S SAKE, I'M INDIAN!!!). There are also people who have said I have no life because I'm Asian...seriously? Is that not discrimination?</p>

<p>I know this goes against my point, but a lot of the "discrimination" Asians say they experience is really just their frustration over other peoples' stupidity regarding their culture.</p>

<p>By the way, it would be ridiculous to make the argument that because I have never been pulled over by a cop, etc. and that this is nothing major, that this doesn't matter. The truth is, I've only seen a police officer on the street once where I live, and he pulled over a kid...who happened to be Asian. That kid deserved it though, so it was ok.</p>

159

<p>proletariat2,</p>

<p>Sorry if that offends you. Believe it or not, I'm more liberal than conservative.</p>

<p>Hence, it is not liberals that I have a problem with. (I'd be a hypocrite, then.) It is redemptive liberals that I have huge disagreements with.</p>

<p>I do not agree with their reason for supporting affirmative action. I've become almost completely convinced that they have abandoned our nation's best principles in exchange for "diversity," "inclusion," and "level playing fields" and that it is the duty of conservatives to complete the dream of equality.</p>

160

<p>warblersrule86,
that was pretty much irrelevant to the discussion.</p>

<p>
[quote]

In any case, do you have any idea whatsoever how much of a role race plays? Many colleges, the University of Chicago among them, have publicly stated that they don't have the faintest idea how many students of each race were admitted or rejected until they compile all the decisions.

[/quote]

although this comment just begs for the obvious rebuttal... If race is such an insignificant component of an application, why consider it at all? Simply to cast the shadow of doubt upon qualified URM applicants?</p>