<p>^^“I think people confuse grad school with professional schools”
I totally agree…</p>
<p>Okay, I see where the misleading part is. The poster should have said instead “I attended UK and now I’m choosing to go to Podunk U for grad school, which proves that my undergrad institution is just as good, if not better, than MIT!” Now that would have more clearly conveyed his point if that had been the case! </p>
<p>So it’s important to go to a graduate school that has the best professors and is the top school for the field of interest, but not so much for undergraduate education?</p>
<p>^^ If a students end goal is to get a Phd, and they are a tip top student[ as evidenced by acceptances at elite UG colleges], but they can’t afford steep costs associated with those colleges , then being lucky enough to receive a full tuition scholarship at a lower ranking college is sometimes the best way to attain that end goal. Driven, tip top students will the get the most out of any UG college they attend. You should read threads from 5 years back ,when both curmudgeons D and my son turned down Ivys for full scholarships at “lesser” colleges, which also had great programs in their fields of interest[ Rhodes for Cur’s D, USC for mine] 5 years later, Cur’s D midge is at Yale and mine will be going to Cal Tech. The ends justify the means.</p>
<p>^If the grad school will be free, why does it matter if money is spent on undergrad?</p>
<p>^Not everyone has the money to spend, period–doesn’t matter if it’s undergrad or grad. Financial aid can be very helpful/fair and also very unhelpful/unfair, depending on individual circumstances.</p>
<p>menloparkmom et al–</p>
<p>Then you’re implying that the student is choosing to forgo a more desired option for the lower ranked college because of the issue of cost, and that had cost not been a factor, then the elite UG colleges would’ve been more desirable? But that in turn suggests that the state flagships aren’t “better” than elite universities because they offer better education, but rather that they’re merely more affordable, and you’re using it as a means to an end. When people make the claim that “state flagships are better than the Ivy League” (or any elite university for that matter), what do they base their judgment on? </p>
<p>Definitely agree with you that motivated students do well in any UG college they attend, but most of that has to more do with student him/herself making the most out of the opportunities available than the inherent quality of the college. You can go to community college then supplement the education by learning from textbooks, low cost outside resources, and taking the time to talk to professors to glean from them everthing possible, and go on to have a successful and fulfilling career, whereas you can also attend the most well funded Ivy League, flunk all the classes, then fail to find a job after graduation. </p>
<p>Effort and dedication at the individual level do much to dictate the course of life, but is it necessarily a good method of judging the quality of the educational institution itself? Can you say that the community college did a better job at preparing the student academically, when it was in fact the student who made the difference?</p>
<p>“why does it matter if money is spent on undergrad?” Seriously?? </p>
<p>well, for some folks of limited financial means, that’s the kind of question that only those WITH a lot of money can afford to ask…
and Keilexandra answered that question well.</p>
<p>"Can you say that the community college did a better job at preparing the student academically, when it was in fact the student who made the difference? "
Its my belief that the MOST important factor is this- to borrow your words:
A “motivated students [ will] do well in any UG college they attend, but most of that has to more do with student him/herself making the most out of the opportunities available than the inherent quality of the college”
I don’t think that an elite UG college will make a “better” student or provide a “better” education to someone who is a less motivated, serious student to begin with.
Do the clothes make the man? Perhaps they do to those who care about or can afford to pay for [what seems to me to be a ]superficial measure of success.</p>
<p>^^Yes, I am well aware that most people have limited financial means and that you should always consider the costs/benefits of each school. However, from what I have gathered on these forums, most folks advocate choosing the absolute cheapest undergraduate option nearly all the time. Then after their child has been accepted to a prestigious PhD/MD/JD/etc they use that to justify their choice of a less-prestigious college. If their child had attended a prestigious U, they would justify that similarly with grad school, job placement, etc. I agree with Calico that a student’s success at a lower ranked school says more about him than about the school.</p>
<p>^Would your viewpoint be the same if your son attended a more prestigious U? I doubt it.</p>
<p>“most folks advocate choosing the absolute cheapest undergraduate option nearly all the time.”
YEAH! Do you know why? because most folks CANT AFFORD $ 200,000 for an UG college education for a child these days! So does that make us dumb? No. Its the reality that an UG education costs way too much at many colleges these days, including elite colleges with less generous FA programs, relative to the “value” that an “elite” education supposedly offers over an education at a less “elite” college. Most families have to make choices based on what they can afford and what the relative cost/benefit of the choice will likely be.</p>
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<p>Wow, that would describe my dad’s hometown in south Texas perfectly! He was second out of a HS class of 25 (we never let him live that down). He went to state flagship schools for his BS, MS, and PhD in engineering. He’s been inducted into the National Academy of Engineering, and he was one of the first Americans inducted into the Russian Academy of Engineering. I don’t think my mom has ever regretted marrying someone from East Bumblebutt. In July, they will be going on their 7th safari in South Africa after he lectures at a university there.</p>
<p>I’m sure glad my mom wasn’t prejudiced!</p>
<p>“Would your viewpoint be the same if your son attended a more prestigious U? I doubt it.”
sorry, you lose that bet. He was accepted at 10 “more prestigious” colleges[ including 2 Ivys, Chicago, Wash U, etc, etc] than the one he chose to go to, for many reasons including financial ones. And he is better off- if you are measuring the “prestige” of grads schools, of any of his friends, who did go to more “prestigious” UG colleges.</p>
<p>@seancarpenter I agree with you to some extent.</p>
<p>First, I do use my grad school acceptances to justify turning down MIT for the state school. I’ll admit to that, but I’m shameless. I am very glad, though, that I don’t have to deal with the debt in grad school.</p>
<p>Second, I would say that going to the state school does place the burden to excel more on the student than the school. For example, there are about 3 students this year that are going to top grad programs out of my graduating class of 60. I would guess if you were to look at top undergrad engineering class the ratio would be much higher. However, when I was at the JHU BME recruiting weekend I noticed that the majority of the recruitees were from state schools. I later learned that (this is completely hearsay, so I could get flamed on this one) that they look for good state school students because they figure that if somebody can do well (do meaningful research, do outstanding work, etc.) in a normal state school, he/she will do well in grad school because it shows a lot of motivation on the part of that student. That makes sense, but there is the contrary argument that it is easy to stand out in a state school. </p>
<p>Oh well, I got to my top grad school choice. And I’ll have never paid a dime for my education.</p>
<p>^^how do you know if he is better off if he has never attended one of those other schools? If your son succeeded so well at USC, perhaps he could’ve succeeded even more at a more “prestigious” school. Point is, you’ll never know. Glad that it all worked out for your family</p>
<p>^glad to see that it all worked out for you too :)</p>
<p>It gives me some hope, considering I’ll probably be attending Michigan (which I know is a great school and one that I’ll be happy at that’s fairly priced too)</p>
<p>“I don’t think that an elite UG college will make a “better” student or provide a “better” education to someone who is a less motivated, serious student to begin with.”</p>
<p>The not-so-motivated and not-so-serious students never have face this choice, since they’re unlikely to be admitted to elite universities (or the honor college of their public flagship for that matter) in the first place. </p>
<p>For those who are “moderately” driven, the issue of “fit” aside, I think they’ll have a higher chance of doing well academically if placed in an environment where the majority of the student body is more academically oriented. They’re more likely recruited for the post-graduation jobs they desire if they’re at the place where the recruiters commonly frequent. To do well at a lower ranked school takes more self-discipline and self motivation, similar to what utahengineer said.</p>
<p>To someone who is extremely motivated then, the top school provides easier access to resources, reknown faculty to approach for guidance, a broader scope of challenging courseloads, more choices.</p>
<p>@sean. Michigan is a great school. I don’t know what you are going into, but their engineering is top notch.</p>
<p>Any thoughts on, “Would it be the same in terms of chances of admission to a grad school for engineering vs. law school after undergraduate engineering from a state flagship school (in my son’s case Cockrell school of engineering at UT Austin along with Plan II honors double major”? My son ultimately wants to do Intellectual Property and Patent Law, but has chosen electrical engineering for undergrad. and has got IS admission to UT Austin? Thanks to all who respond.</p>
<p>“Do the clothes make the man? Perhaps they do to those who care about or can afford to pay for [what seems to me to be a ]superficial measure of success.”</p>
<p>It seems to me superficial too if one sees that as a measure of success. In so many ways it’s a means to an end as well.</p>
<p>“YEAH! Do you know why? because most folks CANT AFFORD $ 200,000 for an UG college education for a child these days! So does that make us dumb?”</p>
<p>Who says it make you dumb :o? It’s a smart choice that many families make. I have a problem with people criticizing elite schools as useless, not with people making choices that are right for their situation.</p>
<p>(Also, most families don’t have to pay the sticker price for top colleges. The more “elite” the insitution, often the better the aid.)</p>
<p>"perhaps he could’ve succeeded even more at a more “prestigious” school . "
His Goal was always to be accepted into the highest ranked PHD program in his field, cause that’s where the profs with the most expertise in his area of interest were, which he was. That program is offered at one of the most prestigious Graduate universities in the country. So he could not have “succeeded” any more. There weren’t any higher ranked grad school programs that were harder to get into.
And his success should give you hope! Keep your eyes on the goal. Good luck!</p>
<p>[Also, most families don’t have to pay the sticker price for top colleges. The more “elite” the insitution, often the better the aid."
Nowadays, that may be true, but that doesn’t make it affordable to everyone who has graduate degree goals…
$0 for tuition < the cost of tuition for most families at most top colleges. It sometimes comes down to the matter of how much the “name” on a diploma for an UG degree is worth…</p>