<p>This was a question our S had a few years ago. He was clearly undecided about a major and very interested in having the opportunity to experience a broader liberal arts education. We found Drew University and ... nothing. He is now enrolled in a LAC in nearby PA. If you look at the list of top LACs here on CC there are 5 in MA, 4 in NY, 3 in PA and 2 in nearby CT. If you look at the 40 schools described in Colleges That Change Lives, there are none in NJ but 3 in PA, 2 in MA and even 3 in MD. Why aren't there at least a few worthy LACs in NJ?</p>
<p>TCNJ is LAC-like, although considered to be a masters university.</p>
<p>When we visited TCNJ I was very impressed with many things. However, it seemed very structured and not at all LAC-like. I understood that you had to designate a major and the only way you could change that major was when there was an opening in the other field you had become interested in. Since our S was truly undecided (but interested in math, computer science, physics and Spanish), this just couldn’t work for him. Have I misunderstood the situation at TCNJ?</p>
<p>Princeton?</p>
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<p>Because NJ is just a corridor between NY and PA, both of which have plenty of liberal arts colleges?</p>
<p>Here you go:</p>
<p>[New</a> Jersey/NJ Liberal Arts Colleges - Liberal Arts College Revew](<a href=“http://www.liberalartscollegereview.com/liberal_arts_college/stateid/NJ]New”>New Jersey (NJ) Liberal Arts Colleges | Liberal Arts College Review)</p>
<p>Thank you megan12. I have gone back to look at the information on the websites for each of the eight colleges on this list. I had my own questions about three of them. For starters, Stockton State (The Richard Stockton College of New Jersey) just doesn’t seem like a LAC. It is much more like TCNJ than it is like Drew for example. It is also large and heavily career oriented. Personally, Felician College still strikes me a nursing/religous institution. Finally, my long held impressions of Saint Elizabeth is that it had too many admission restrictions (e.g., “females under the age of 23”) for some programs. Even with these three eliminated from my personal list, there are still five and one of them (Ramapo) is public. None of these LACs (with the possible exception of Drew) would be considered top tier. In fact, I don’t see any of them as very highly rated or considered given the wealth of nearby competition (e.g., Dickinson, Gettysburg, Franklin & Marshall, Union, Ursinus, Muhlenberg, Hampshire, Juniata, Connecticut College, Trinity College, Lafayette, Skidmore, Hobart and William Smith, Allegheny, etc.). Why aren’t the NJ LACs getting consideration in these discussions?</p>
<p>Princeton?</p>
<p>It’s Princeton mythology. P. prides itself at being more “undergraduate focused” than the other Ivies. But the reality is that if you eliminate the graduate and professional schools that, for example, H. and Y. have that P doesn’t (business school, law school, medical school, school of public health, etc.), the ratio of graduate students to undergrads at P. is pretty much the same as at those other places.</p>
<p>My d. is a head preceptor at P. She is very competent, thank you. She teaches undergrads, grades their papers, and grades their exams, with very, very little in the way of supervision from more senior faculty, Now I happen to think she likely does a great job of it. And so she’s been told. She is very knowledgeable, very up-to-date in her field, and she wouldn’t have a fellowship at P. if she wasn’t projected to be among the best of her kind. She’s also 23. </p>
<p>You’d never, ever experience anything like that at a good liberal arts college. Certainly she didn’t. (Now this is not a rap on P: the professors she works with are indeed world-class. But for better or for worse, a liberal arts college it ain’t.)</p>
<p>mini - first, congratulations to your D on what she has already accomplished as well as in anticipation of what likely lies ahead of her. Secondly, while Princeton has been mentioned in this thread, I believe most of us would agree that it is not a LAC.</p>
<p>Since we now have a list of NJ LACs to discuss, I went to the SAT site to look at the middle 50% ranges that they post for the critical reading (CR) and math (M) scores for incoming first year students at each of these colleges. I didn’t compare writing scores since they were not reported for the majority of these schools. For simplicity (as opposed to statistical rigor), I took the average of the 50% range for CR and the average of the 50% range for M and added these two numbers together. This provides a rough estimate of the average score for each school’s incoming class on the two traditional components of the SAT. </p>
<p>These numbers were telling. For example, Saint Elizabeth and Bloomfield had scores in the low 800s. Felican was in the high 800s. These are very low scores. I was actually surprised that Ramapo (1155) was not only very similar to Drew (1120) but actually slightly higher.</p>
<p>For comparison purposes, Rutgers (1195) and TCNJ (1200) had nearly identical scores. Princeton had a 1490 using this simple measure.</p>
<p>Awww, give poor NJ a break - they have enough problems!</p>
<p>englishjw – most of those schools are former community colleges. They are not “quality” LAC schools that would compare with the likes of Williams Amherst Middlebury Swarthmore. The only NJ school that seems to have successfully made that transistion reputation wise is TCNJ. I don’t know enough about it to know if it is not truly LACish as you implied above but it markets itself as if it is an LAC. Aside from Princeton and Rutgers most of NJ 's best and brightest flee the state for college years.</p>
<p>megan12 - I do not want to give the NJ schools problems. I truly want things to be better for them. For example, I think both Drew (private) and Ramapo (public) have legitimate shots at becoming very good LACs. The kids in NJ deserve this.</p>
<p>2bornot2bivy - Yes, many of these schools have been something less in the past. However, I think NJ has shown it can improve its colleges. Both Rutgers and TCNJ are good illustrations. Montclair State, with over 21,000 students, is another success story in a very different way. I would like to see some NJ colleges showing up on lists of good (if not great) LACs. I would like to see more of NJ’s best and brightest continuing their educations in the Garden State.</p>
<p>There is a TCNJ forum on CC, with an Ask the Dean thread, where the Dean of one of the colleges responds to questions. I suggest to ask your questions about TCNJ there.</p>
<p>That’s kind of an odd question. Why doesn’t Delaware have an Ivy League university, when NJ does? </p>
<p>I’m not sure that just because other states have extremely selective LAC’s means that NJ has to. We are a small state, and we have Princeton. For those looking for a the kind of flagship State U experience that you would get at U of Maryland, we have Rutgers. And then there’s a ton of schools in between. Last I checked, no one is stopping us from crossing the borders to other states and that’s actually a huge advantage for NJ students, to have all of these great universities in other states that are still not that far from home.</p>
<p>Why are the NJ schoolsother than Princeton and Rutgers not selective and why are they not getting a better grade of student? Do they need to? Perhaps they see their mission as educating B students. Another angle could be to look at it from the perspective of a top professor or administrator who is offered a job in NJ and in PA. The standard of living in PA would be a lot more attractive than coming here. I’m not sure Drew can compete with Bucknell in luring amazing faculty to campus. I would imagine a professor at Bucknell could live a lot more pleasantly on their salary out there than you can in Drew’s posh suburban area. </p>
<p>One could also make the leap that education is something of a business in PA, NY, and Mass. Real Estate is too pricey in NJ for a town to be devoted to a college, and the residents here in NJ were too focused on industry to “light candles in the wilderness” for the students to flock to a hundred plus years ago. I can’t really think of any towns in NJ that revolve around a university the way they do in PA, MA, or NY–even Princeton has quite a bit of other life going on exclusive to the university.</p>
<p>Comparing NJ to PA or NY or MA is a bit off to me–those are huge states. Compare NJ to Connecticut, and it’s pretty apples to apples, both are smaller sized states, both have high taxes and high property values and unaffordable real estate. CT seems to have a deeper list of more selective colleges than NJ, but not by much, and I wonder if I lived in CT if I would think 3/4 of the list was not acceptable. Familiarity breeds contempt. Compare NJ’s offerings to New Hampshire, which is slightly larger and we actually seem to offer more, better choices.</p>
<p>Lennon</p>
<p>I agree with virtually all of your points with a few exceptions. For example, I could see a professor preferring Drew to Bucknell (if they were closer academically) simply for the proximity to New York City and everything it offers. That is a quibble. I also agree that NJ may purposefully be educating (or at least admitting) “the B student” (as indicated by the average SAT score ranges). I don’t have issues with any of these things.</p>
<p>A comparison between NJ and CT seems fine to me for purposes of this discussion - liberal arts colleges (not Princeton or Yale, Rutgers or U Conn). From the discussions so far, we in NJ can offer Drew and Ramapo. CT trumps NJ easily with Wesleyan, Trinity, and Connecticut College. Do you think the NJ LACs can compete with these from CT? It is the same story with PA, NY and MA. I think we can and should offer more quality LAC options in NJ. Since we don’t, my son is attending a LAC in PA.</p>
<p>I do want to reiterate some earlier points. NJ may be small in size but is anything but small in per capita income (1st or 2nd), population density (1st), total population (11th with MA at 13th and New Hampshire coming in 42nd), percentage of high school graduates, number of high school graduates, etc.</p>
<p>not sure what difference it makes that NJ doesn’t have LACs comparable to PA when NJ is so close to PA its not a hardship for NJ students to attend there so this need is currently being served by existing LACs. Since almost all LACs are private schools, it seems like in-state vs out-of-state is really irrelevant to the student’s choice. And, anecdotally, a lot of NJ students would prefer to attend college in a different state, so that could be why there isn’t a lot of interest in Drew/Ramapo. Lots of NJ kids go the Muhlenberg for example. In that sense maybe you should consider Muhlenberg to a NJ LAC because of how many NJ students it attracts, lol. Your son is attending a great school, Haverford. Why does it matter that this school is physically located in a different state?</p>
<p>We are very pleased with Haverford - our S loves it. Given all the resources of NJ, I still think it would be benefical for the state ot have more higher quality LAC options. I also agree with you about Muhlenberg (and about a dozen other good, very good and excellent LACs in PA). Ramapo is a public college. It would be a terrific alternative for many NJ graduates. Why not?</p>
<p>Are you using some kind of strict definition of LAC or what are your criteria? I don’t actually see anything on the Ramapo site that defines it as an LAC, but I didn’t look that hard! Why wouldn’t Rider or Monmouth be considered an LAC? I know UNC-Asheville calls itself the public LAC of the NC state system, but I’m not sure what earns that designation. (smaller class size, humanities bent–that’s what I think of when I think of LAC)</p>
<p>I guess another point I’d question you on is the idea that NJ has resources. We are cash strapped, we have a governor who seems anti-education if anything, and our cost of living is exorbitant. What are the resources that would enhance a struggling LAC’ish university? If you look at building some of the more average colleges up…how much do you have to pay to get the results…and if we have the population, in the end, does it matter? If they are filling the seats and educating the minds, does it matter if they A-students or B-students? At the end of the day, a large proportion of “the best and brightest” are going to head to work elsewhere from the state they were educated, at least for a stint–whether they were educated in NY or PA, they will head to NY or DC or Atlanta or Boston.</p>
<p>Though, I was educated at a small LAC in upstate NY and somehow I ended up back in NJ.</p>
<p>I do like your questions, and for me it just leads to more questions… Elon, when I was in high school, was not a competitive school. It was about as difficult to get into as Monmouth College. But over the past 20 years they’ve put a ton or resources into the school, and really increased the standing of the school and the selectivity. There is a book about it, Transforming A College, which might be an interesting read, in the context of our discussion!</p>
<p>[Amazon.com:</a> Transforming a College: The Story of a Little-Known College’s Strategic Climb to National Distinction (9780801879890): George Keller: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Transforming-College-Little-Known-Strategic-Distinction/dp/0801879892/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317071700&sr=8-1]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Transforming-College-Little-Known-Strategic-Distinction/dp/0801879892/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317071700&sr=8-1)</p>
<p>That said, I can’t pull up a link for this, but I also remember reading that Elon blatantly lied to USNWR about their incoming SAT’s one year, and that’s actually what boosted them. Reporting an extra 98 points in SAT scores put them in line for a different caliber student. Not sure we want too encourage Rider or Monmouth to do that!</p>
<p>Haverford is not that far from anywhere in NJ! Would your life be any different if your son were attending a private LAC in state? Did he lose scholarships that were NJ specific? As I said–I like your questions, but I"m not sure where you are coming from.</p>