<p>I know everyone always says "Liberal Arts Colleges and Research Universities are totally different and you shouldn't even try to compare them," but I'm still curious. Each have their flaws and benefits, so if you had to try to mesh the two lists into one super list what do you think it would look like? </p>
<p>Here's my guess:</p>
<p>Harvard
Princeton
Yale
MIT
Stanford
Amherst
Williams
CIT
Swarthmore
UPenn
Columbia
Wellesley
Middlebury
Bowdoin
Pomona
Duke
UChicago
Dartmouth
Carleton
Davidson
Northwestern
WashU
Cornell
Haverford
Claremont McKenna</p>
<p>They should have separate listing of LAC-type schools who offer limited research/grad schools. Schools like Rice, Tufts, William & Mary, Wake Forest, Colgate, Georgetown are difficult to classify. Highest quality undergrad but limited grad programs. How can you compare Tufts to Michigan? Yet they are on the same “list”. Another reason not to believe blindly everything you read. Critical thinking must be applied.</p>
<p>If it weren’t for separate US News rankings for liberal arts colleges, not many people would even know they exist. The idea that Amherst, Williams and Swarthmore would be ranked higher than say U of Penn, Johns Hopkins, and Dartmouth is simply ridiculous. The quality of the graduates is substantially higher at U of P, JHU, and Dartmouth than AWS. For example, Johns Hopkins has been the number one ranked research university for almost three decades. You simply cannot get the opportunities for research at a small liberal arts college that you can get there.</p>
<p>Haha. This one clearly holds liberal arts colleges in very low regard. </p>
<p>Maybe its more true for the sciences, but a good education does not have to revolve around research. Liberal Arts schools traditionally have smaller class sizes than major universities, and while the professors are not usually world renowned researchers, more than half the time they are better teachers (They were hired for their ability to teach, not to publish). Also, universities with grad school almost inevitably use graduate students to teach some classes. I have a friend who went to Harvard and was in class his first semester that was taught by a 22 year old who had never stood in front of a classroom before. Universities are great, dont get me wrong, but don’t make the mistake of assuming that they’re in a different league from Liberal Arts Colleges.</p>
<p>Not true. Your question was about ranking them together in the context of US News. If the question is the best fit, that depends on the student. For many students a smaller school would be better because a smaller community means the possibility of closer friends, etc. If you are looking at the criteria employed by US News and possibly other factors such as academic reputation, name recognition, and quality of students, the liberal arts graduates of the schools I mentioned are at schools far better than the top liberal arts colleges. Outside of the academic world, few have heard of Williams Swarthmore, Amherts, etc. On the other hand, Johns Hopkins is known throughout the world. U Penn and Dartmouth can say the same.</p>
<p>Well, I’m not going to say that the liberal arts colleges have wide name recognitions, because they dont, but I don’t think that that is a real factor in the quality of the education.</p>
<p>I disagree that the quality of students who attend the top universities are far in advance of the students who attend the top liberal arts colleges. The quality of student that attends Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Stanford and MIT is likely higher than that of the students who attend Amherst or Williams, yes. But if you look at admissions figures (SAT range, percent of incoming class that was in the top 10% of their hs class, etc) for the top 20 schools on each list you’ll see that the top liberal arts schools are extremely competitive with the top universities. </p>
<p>And attending a liberal arts college is beneficial for more reasons than just “the possibility of closer friends, etc.” That’s bushhh league.</p>
<p>The revealed preferences study gave results sort of like the ones at the top of this thread. AWS are on par with mid to low ivies in terms of attracting students.</p>
<p>Lifestyle is about the only reason to go to a LAC over a university. Most universities can pay higher wages and attract better faculty. Many LACs have more teachers with just masters than PhDs. If you are trying to get into graduate school, your summer research at your university may be what separates you from other students attending LACs. Students at universities tend to be better when they graduate because they often face more competition. Universities can grade courses on a curve which forces students to be competitive. They work harder and in the long run that is what counts. Universities offer a greater variety of courses and more chances to take classes of interest. For example, you might be able to take a marketing class at a university when marketing is not offered at a LAC. Or maybe you want to take more than one course in Chinese history, but your LAC only has one course with the same teacher every year.</p>
<p>man, this guy razorsharp is so full of ignorance. he/she obviously doesn’t know a thing about liberal arts schools.</p>
<p>@razorsharp: its not even worth talking to you. i could contradict every point you made, but you’d just ignore what i say again like you ignored what i said in post 7. try knowing what your talking about before you make some absurd statement like “lifestyle is about the only reason to go to a LAC over a university.” you sound like an idiot otherwise. </p>
<p>good luck at whatever university your going to/at</p>
<p>In other words, you know very little about universities and LACs, Tzar09. As an 09, are you even in college yet? Have you ever hired employees and looked at their education and compared it to their job performance? You have no basis to make a comparison. You just call people names and pretend you know something. That’s how children behave. Stay small.</p>
<p>I’ve taken classes at JHU, Harvard, and MIT. I can assure you… it’s not that great. :0P It’s rigorous but you mostly learn the material on your own. Also depends on your major since humanities seminars with open discussions is not neccessarily my forte Can’t comment on that aspect because I am a science major. On the other hand, I’ve never taken a course at a LAC so I have no idea nor can I comment on that either.</p>
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<p>… you realize that college doesn’t teach you anything except how to take information and apply it? It teaches you how to think. At least in the science majors, absorb a huge swamp of information that is useless and teaches you how to learn concepts quickly and how to solve problems under time conditions… (What you would expect like meeting deadlines in the real world)</p>
<p>Obviously you have never taken a class in college yet lol.</p>
<p>What’s arguably more important: “Rank what school best prepares students for the real world via highly intensive and rigorous course loads (that positively develops and matures you) and career development/research/internship opportunities (for resume experience and social skill set training) …”</p>
<p>I’m not sure why hand holding with “fantastic lecturers” is demanded when in the real world, you’ll be collaborating in teams and stressing over projects that needs to be done on time and solutions will not be handed to you on a silver platter. Either way, you have to learn the material yourself. So why not just do it…</p>
<p>A Harvard friend told me he would have gotten a much better education at Swarthmore. He picked it based on “prestige” and has regretted it. </p>
<p>Here’s a crazy thought. Go visit a big research school (Illinois/UCLA et al…) on a Sat night and go visit, say Amherst. Talk to 10-20 random undergrads. Tell me who would impress you the most. Guarantee Amherst wins.</p>
<p>The top students attend large research schools but they are surrounded literally by thousands of students who are not their peers. The same cant be said about LACs. IMHO, that makes a big difference in the education one receives. Parents pick nieghborhoods to live in based on school system (ie peer group). Why wouldnt you do the same for college?</p>
<p>Frankly, the USNews stopped ranking LACs and research unis together for the very reasons you see on this thread; about half a dozen “schools you’ve never heard of” would take the next tier of slots right behind HYPMS and all h*ll broke loose. Amherst, Swarthmore, Pomona, Reed, and Williams were doing just fine before USNews. It’s the research unis that need special treatment, not the other way around.</p>
Can’t comment on that aspect because I am a science major. On the other hand, I’ve never taken a course at a LAC so I have no idea nor can I comment on that either.</p>