<p>What strikes me about giterdone’s D’s options, more than the differences in cost, are the differences in school experience. Which does she prefer? Or is she an agreeable sort who will make the most of any environment? Having done my UG and grad education at two big state Us in great college towns, I’d say that part of the experience at U. Mich. would be worth paying for if the money is there and if that’s what the student wants. But if she’d be just as happy, or even happier, at a lower-cost school, all the better!</p>
<p>Surprised that no one has said anything about Drake U. From the little I do know, it looks like a steal at $13K per year. It’s ranked #3 for regional Us in the Midwest (per U.S. News) behind Creighton and Butler, so the competition is high. It seems to draw reasonably strong students (550-670 middle 50 SAT math; 530-650 CR; with a reasonable percentage in the above-700 range for both math and CR). </p>
<p>Giterdone: Did you expose your daughter to the concept of organizational change management or did she discover the interest on her own?</p>
<p>@abs - D is interested in Business, I sharpened it a “degree” by throwing out some narrower specializations, and that was one she latched onto.</p>
<p>To your point - the experiences at each of the schools are quite a contrast. I think UMich or NU is more about “the dream” of what a college experience should be like, vs. the more intimate options being the counter and pragmatic alternative to that.</p>
<p>Going to UMich and not getting into Ross? would be a bust. Getting into NU with ANY merit or need aid? would be very hard to turn down. And the safties? I guess that’s why they call them “safties”… I think she will be happy anywhere. She is very easy going and will make the most of wherever she lands.</p>
<p>People look at lots of different criteria–one that matters a lot to me is how accomplished and motivated the other students are. So one thing I suggest looking at is the middle 50% of SAT scores on the College Board site. That gives you some rough comparison of what the students will be like academically. When you do that for some of the schools mentioned above, there are some pretty big differences.</p>
<p>SAT isn’t used much out here - ACT is more prevalent. But I get what you’re saying. Although…ever heard the adage? the world is run by “C” students And the counter to your argument is; it’s harder to shine (stand out) in a bevy of “over achievers”</p>
<p>Sure, Hunt, compare U. Mich. to St. Thomas and to Drake, and you’ll see that there are substantially fewer average kids at the University of Michigan and a greater percentage of high-achieving kids (above 700 SAT M and CR), particularly if you look at math scores. Nearly 100 percent of U. Mich. kids come from the top quarter of their classes, compared with 74 percent at Drake and 55 percent at St. Thomas (all this from collegedata.com). The way I look at it, that suggests it would be more of a challenge for a top student to find his or her peer group at Drake or St. Thomas, but not “needle-in-a-haystack” challenging. Looked at one way, the ready availability of tippy-top students at U. Mich. would be worth the price. Looked at another way, a family might expect a child to be willing to take on the challenge of finding a peer group at a lower-ranked institution for a cost differential of anywhere from $88K to $120K over four years.</p>
<p>Does your child plan on doing grad work in organizational change mgt? I’m not sure that there are many jobs in the field with just a BS/BA. If so, you might consider psychology as an undergraduate degree. All of the faculty at my university in Org Change Mgt have undergrad degrees in psychology.</p>
<p>As for Drake, it is very, very, very, very pre-professional with virtually no ‘intellectual vibe’ despite getting pretty strong students. If grad school is on the horizon, you might consider your other options.</p>
<p>The differences in the St. Thomas campus vs the Drake campus alone would have me picking St. Thomas over Drake :). As for the price comparisons, St. Thomas for practically free is a much better “steal” than Drake for $13K. </p>
<p>Just a quick search of some notable alum from St. Thomas:</p>
<p>Michael J. Hoffman - CEO, The Toro Company
Timothy Flynn - Chairman, KPMG International
Jim Oberstar - Former U.S. Congressman
Gerald Rauenhorst - Founding chairman, Opus Corp.
Patrick J. Ryan - Chief of Chaplains of the U.S. Army
John Schneider - General manager of the Seattle Seahawks
Will Steger - Polar explorer</p>
<p>Keep in mind that St. Thomas also participates in the curriculum exchange in the St. Paul/Minneapolis schools so various course work could be taken at about 8 or so other schools including the University of Minnesota and Macalester. </p>
<p>Just trying to say that St. Thomas is a very well respected school in the midwest and graduates from St. Thomas are very sought after in the major companies around the area, a few you might recognize, Best Buy, 3M, Medtronic, Carlson Companies, Toro, Cargill, etc. Even if she only works in the area for a couple years, having any of these companies on your resume will have international recognition.</p>
<p>I think what was said upthread about really listening to your kid before helping them shape their college choices certainly has some validity. Only problem is, a 17-year-old’s major influence in that decision at that point in time is usually his/her friends, who for the most part are just as clueless. So from a parent’s perspective, this process of influence often takes on a subliminal aspect, much like the one-frame flash of ‘Coke’ within a movie to make viewers thirsty.</p>
<p>A mom & dad worth their salt has a pretty good idea in advance at what kind of school their child should succeed, and as the college visits start & for high ACT/SAT scorers the endless mailings arrive, the vision is honed. Not to say, of course, that the occasional curveball isn’t thrown… </p>
<p>I was all set to push our highly-ranked state flagship to D1 until she broke curfew–badly–the night before our college visit trip, and that rendered the visit almost useless because D1 was waiting the whole time for the inevitable grounding shoe to drop. Fun drive in the car, let me tell you. She ended up applying to that state flagship & was accepted, but for her it was never in the running because (I think) of that bad initial experience. She ended up at an adjacent OOS public and did fine.</p>
<p>For D2, I had thought that because she never had any inclination to party, and was enamored with the fine arts, reading & writing, that a small LAC would be just perfect for her for the hands-on experience, the intellectual discussions. So I said I’ve got THIS one pegged, and we set up a few LAC visits but before that did a spur-of-the-moment quickie tour at a highly-ranked OOS flagship in the next state. And it was in a blizzard, and on top of that it was a perennial top 10 party school. Of course she loved it, the other LAC’s didn’t measure up & that’s where she resides now, happy as a clam.</p>
<p>Bottom line is that we THINK we know what makes our kids tick, but they’re changing all the time. Best thing to do is throw it all out there for them–the LAC’s, the mid-level privates, and then the huge institutions. The more visits the better, the more communication the better. Keep in mind the out the door cost. Determine real value if you can–ROI is important but so is a great department within a college with solid advisors & alumni contacts for post-undergrad opportunities. You never know where you might find that little nugget that clicks with your kid.</p>
<p>As it happens, SteveMA, I’m the “irrational actor” that behavioral economists talk about. I’m the kind of person who says, “What’s the big difference between ‘practically free’ and $13K a year?” (This is even though my math skills are good enough to see the difference between “practically free” and $52K over four years.) When I think about the “it’s only money” that’s flowed through my bank account over the years, I cringe. That’s why I set up a college savings account that forced savings upon me. Otherwise, who knows what kind of hand-wringing I’d be doing come May of this year? But what I was really saying was that if Drake was a place the kid could see herself going for whatever reasons, it would be a good choice and offered at a reasonable price point for what it is. And for some kinds of students it would offer more attractive options than St. Thomas does. I’d say the same thing about the University of Michigan (and then expect people to tell me I’m crazy!). The OP says Drake is off the table (and if it’s very, very, very, very preprofessional as Haystack says, it would be off my list and my D’s as well). I know nothing whatsoever about the University of St. Thomas, but it does sound like a great option.</p>
I don’t disagree with this–well, at least with the second part of it–but I think this is where your kid’s personality really makes a difference–some kids are happy to be a big fish in a small pond, while others feel bored and unchallenged if there aren’t lots of other big fish for them to be around.</p>
<p>giterdone, my daughter will be attending the University St. Thomas in the fall. We were there last weekend (our second visit) for the Admitted Student Overnight and that pretty much sealed the deal for her—that and the generous financial aid. It’s not where we expected her to end up when this whole process began, but we are quite happy with her choice. The classes she attended, the professors she met with, and the state-of-the-art facilities surpassed what we saw at many of the other colleges we visited.</p>
<p>Agreed - the facilities overall are the best we visited, and we’ve seen a lot! A nice little “hidden gem” of a school from all I can tell. It’s not official for D yet, but I sense she’s leaning that way.</p>
And the counter to your argument is; it’s harder to shine (stand out) in a bevy of “over achievers”</p>
I’m the kind of person who says, “What’s the big difference between ‘practically free’ and $13K a year?” (This is even though my math skills are good enough to see the difference between “practically free” and $52K over four years.) When I think about the “it’s only money” that’s flowed through my bank account over the years, I cringe. That’s why I set up a college savings account that forced savings upon me. Otherwise, who knows what kind of hand-wringing I’d be doing come May of this year? But what I was really saying was that if Drake was a place the kid could see herself going for whatever reasons, it would be a good choice and offered at a reasonable price point for what it is. And for some kinds of students it would offer more attractive options than St. Thomas does. I’d say the same thing about the University of Michigan (and then expect people to tell me I’m crazy!). The OP says Drake is off the table (and if it’s very, very, very, very preprofessional as Haystack says, it would be off my list and my D’s as well). I know nothing whatsoever about the University of St. Thomas, but it does sound like a great option.</p>