Wherefore art thou, Integrity?

Parents Forum
1

<p>Several threads recently have alluded to college applicants who "lack integrity" or who do unethical things to get admitted to colleges.</p>

<p>I was wondering what people here consider to be unethical? For example, would you consider it unethical for an applicant to do any (or all) of the following things that have been mentioned from time to time on these boards?</p>

<p>Is it unethical to...</p>

<p>...participate in extracurricular activities during high school (or choose a particular extracurricular activity) primarily because colleges want students to do this, rather than because of any interest in the activity?</p>

<p>...study hard and earn good grades primarily because this is necessary for admission to selective colleges, rather than because of any true intellectual drive or interest in the subjects being studied? (When I was in high school, many kids considered this extremely unethical.)</p>

<p>...apply for and accept admission to a selective magnet high school that focuses on a specific area (such as math and science) even though you are not particularly interested in that area but simply want to get out of an inferior high school?</p>

<p>...apply to a less selective program within a particular university, with the specific intent of switching to a more selective program after admission (for example, apply to nursing, switch later to engineering)?</p>

<p>...apply to a college Early Decision for strategic reasons even though the student is not actually "in love" with that college?</p>

<p>...provide recommendation writers (guidance counselors and teachers) with a "crib sheet" of the student's activities and achievements? </p>

<p>...take advantage of legacy status by applying to the college(s) from which parents or grandparents graduated?</p>

<p>...take advantage of URM status when one has not actually experienced the hardships that the special consideration for such individuals is intended to offset? (For example, is it unethical for wealthy recent immigrants from Africa or South America to check the African-American or Hispanic boxes on application forms, respectively?)</p>

<p>...take advantage of opportunities not available to less affluent students (SAT prep classes, tutoring, private schools, etc.)?</p>

<p>And can you think of other things that applicants might do that may or may not be unethical?</p>

2

<p>"...study hard and earn good grades primarily because this is necessary for admission to selective colleges, rather than because of any true intellectual drive or interest in the subjects being studied? (When I was in high school, many kids considered this extremely unethical.)"</p>

<p>I don't have time right now to respond to each of the points you raised, but I don't see how the one quoted above can be considered unethical. In high school, everyone must study a variety of subjects and it is natural that some will be of more interest than others. How can it be considered unethical to strive to do well in your studies? I think it shows focus and maturity for a student to work hard in required courses, whether or not they love the subject being taught.</p>

3

<p>In my humble opinion, many of the items on your post are not unethical...for instance taking advantage of opportunities not available to less affluent students...if my son does not use those advantages he will not create them for the less affluent...</p>

<p>on the other hand, there are lots of local scholarships in our area...I would not let my son apply for them because we are in a position to pay his tuition and I felt it would take away from kids who really needed that money to go to college. Unfortunately I was not in the majority in that opinion. There were kids who received scholarship funds and drove home that night in their own BMW...enough said there. </p>

<p>but to me there are some clearly unethicals:
lying on your college application with regard to ecs, etc. </p>

<p>financial unethicals: understating income or assets on FAFSA or other financial aid forms</p>

<p>In my mind, things like applying early decision for strategic reasons is unethical if you intend to decline the acceptance. Again, you are taking something from someone else and you have previously agreed to accept if admitted </p>

<p>As far as some of the other items you mention, things like doing ECs just so they will look good on your college apps doesn't concern me because it is the student who has to live with themselves. They may get to that elite school and regret that they never stopped to enjoy their high school years. But, as stated above, if they lie about their involvement in the EC, overstate the hours etc...I feel that is unethical. </p>

<p>Last one, overstating or lying about minority status, definitely crosses the line for me. And believe me, I know it has been/is done. Same rational as above...minority status is considered to assist students who might not have a chance..to take that from them is not right.</p>

4

<p>.>>participate in extracurricular activities during high school (or choose a particular extracurricular activity) primarily because colleges want students to do this, rather than because of any interest in the activity?>></p>

<p>A lot of students began participating in EC out of less than lofty reasons but end up liking the ECs and may be motivated to continue being involved in some form of related activity.</p>

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<p>No harm studying hard. If students were allowed to study only subjects that inspired a passion, schools and colleges would be depopulated very very quickly!</p>

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<p>Not unethical, but unwise. Let's face it, most students attend colleges and universities they are not "in love" with, for a variety of reasons.</p>

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<p>This is a hard call. Recent immigrants from Africa or South America, wealthy or not, add to the diversity of the student body. They also qualify for URM status under present guidelines. </p>

<p>.>>..take advantage of opportunities not available to less affluent students (SAT prep classes, tutoring, private schools, etc.)?>></p>

<p>Not taking advantage of these oportunities will not make them more affordable to others.</p>

5

<p>Marian, I have to say that while I may find some of your ideas distasteful, I don't think that they are actually unethical. It's just common sense to try to understand how a situation works and then take advantage of what works for you. For example, if a student comes from a family who is willing to pay for test prep classes, why not take advantage of that? The student still has to actually do the work involved in the class, so it's not as if they are just buying a higher score. Anyone can get a prep book from the library and take practice tests at home. It's just easier if there is a coach pointing out the path.</p>

<p>As far as students who choose ECs strategically, so what? I actually wish that my kids would think that way, sometimes! But the odds of me being able to get them to join an activity that I think might "look good" on an application is just about nil. I think MOST kids are like that. </p>

<p>I would consider any behavior that involved dishonesty, cheating or trying to hurt another applicant as unethical. Doing one's best to get into a good college, within the guidelines of honest and considerate behavior, doesn't qualify as unethical to me.</p>

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<p>Is it unethical to...</p>

<p>...participate in extracurricular activities during high school (or choose a particular extracurricular activity) primarily because colleges want students to do this, rather than because of any interest in the activity?NO</p>

<p>...study hard and earn good grades primarily because this is necessary for admission to selective colleges, rather than because of any true intellectual drive or interest in the subjects being studied? (When I was in high school, many kids considered this extremely unethical.)** Absolutely No**</p>

<p>...apply for and accept admission to a selective magnet high school that focuses on a specific area (such as math and science) even though you are not particularly interested in that area but simply want to get out of an inferior high school? No, not how it's phrased.</p>

<p>...apply to a less selective program within a particular university, with the specific intent of switching to a more selective program after admission (for example, apply to nursing, switch later to engineering)?Yep.</p>

<p>...apply to a college Early Decision for strategic reasons even though the student is not actually "in love" with that college?Nope.</p>

<p>...provide recommendation writers (guidance counselors and teachers) with a "crib sheet" of the student's activities and achievements?Nope.</p>

<p>...take advantage of legacy status by applying to the college(s) from which parents or grandparents graduated?Nope.</p>

<p>...take advantage of URM status when one has not actually experienced the hardships that the special consideration for such individuals is intended to offset? (For example, is it unethical for wealthy recent immigrants from Africa or South America to check the African-American or Hispanic boxes on application forms, respectively?)Nope.</p>

<p>...take advantage of opportunities not available to less affluent students (SAT prep classes, tutoring, private schools, etc.)?Nope</p>

<p>And can you think of other things that applicants might do that may or may not be unethical?</p>

<p>Transferring to a poor performing school to be top 10%.
Cheating on schoolwork to advance your cause.
Parents/others writing essays.
Lying about EC's.</p>

7

<p>Good luck in establishing a common yardstick for unethical behavior. What is common sense to one can be viewed as unethical to outsiders. When does a smart strategic decision becomes unethical? </p>

<p>A number of those questions have easy answers, others are eminently complicated. In general terms, students have the right--if not the obligation--to present themselves in the most favorable light. For instance, answering the questions about race or ethnicity has to be truthful, but the students does not need to spend time on the reasons why the question is asked in the first place. It is not his or her responsibility to debate the validity or necessity of the AA program in 2006. In this regard, people cannot OVERSTATE their status: they are within or outside the standards established by the laws. The interpretation of such laws is very different from what people them to be. The fact that a black person lives on Fifth Avenue and attends a tony HS does not make him ... less black; he cannot be blamed to answer the question correctly. The question about rich minorities deserving a boost in admission is something for the COLLEGES to evaluate, not Joe SixPack nor the student himself.</p>

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<p>Xig, so far there has been amazing consistency. I know our sample is small and it's early, but hey- finding anything to agree with lately has been tough..</p>

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<p>What the heck - here's my take.</p>

<p>Frankly, I don't consider any of these actions to be "unethical", nor do I find doing them showing a lack of integrity. This is simply how life works - ethics are not found in the motives but in the actions.</p>

<p>
[quote]
...participate in extracurricular activities during high school (or choose a particular extracurricular activity) primarily because colleges want students to do this, rather than because of any interest in the activity?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is not unethical. It's the participation, not the motive, that counts. However, it is unethical to join the activity, fail to participate, and then use that alleged membership to advance oneself. That's called lying. It is also unethical to promise to do something as a member and not follow through. In that case, one is again reneging on one's (self-imposed) obligations, and causing harm to others who have relied on one's statements. </p>

<p>
[quote]
...study hard and earn good grades primarily because this is necessary for admission to selective colleges, rather than because of any true intellectual drive or interest in the subjects being studied? (When I was in high school, many kids considered this extremely unethical.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If this is unethical, then I am unethical every working day of my life. Do I do a good job for my employer because I adore the work that I do, or because I want my paycheck (the reward)? Guess what - it's the latter. And frankly, I consider a student to have more integrity, not less, if she is capable and puts in the work to study and succeed in a subject in which she is not interested. Anyone can do well in things they are interested in; where's the discipline in that?</p>

<p>
[quote]
...apply to a college Early Decision for strategic reasons even though the student is not actually "in love" with that college?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Given the nature of ED, this may be dumb, but it is not unethical. What is unethical would be applying ED knowing that you will not withdraw your RD applications, and may refuse to go to the ED school even if accepted. Again, that's not playing by the rules. If you're willing to go to that school if accepted ED, there is no ethical violation.</p>

<p>
[quote]
...provide recommendation writers (guidance counselors and teachers) with a "crib sheet" of the student's activities and achievements?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What is conceivably unethical about that? Particularly for guidance counselors who don't know the student well? Assuming that the "crib sheet" is truthful (it's the lying, "padding" or inflating achievements and activities that is unethical), then this is not only ethical, it's smart. Don't you provide prospective employers with resumes, even if they've already interviewed you?</p>

<p>
[quote]
...take advantage of legacy status by applying to the college(s) from which parents or grandparents graduated?</p>

<p>...take advantage of URM status when one has not actually experienced the hardships that the special consideration for such individuals is intended to offset? (For example, is it unethical for wealthy recent immigrants from Africa or South America to check the African-American or Hispanic boxes on application forms, respectively?)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Once again, if the student is telling the truth, there is nothing wrong with playing the game by the rules others have set up. You may not like the rules, and you may feel that you're taking the "high road" by not applying those rules, and maybe you are, but there is nothing inherently unethical about doing so. Now it may be unethical to check URM because your great-great-great-grandmother was a member of that minority class, but that again is the truthfulness issue.</p>

<p>
[quote]
...take advantage of opportunities not available to less affluent students (SAT prep classes, tutoring, private schools, etc.)?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is life in a capitalist society. Less affluent students cannot live in my suburban community, which by its very nature gives students access to a better education in its public schools. Must every student go to school in the inner city to be considered "ethical"? Less affluent students may not have access to good health care or nutrition. Must I forego seeing my physician and buying good food? Heck, under this category it would be unethical for me even to be on this website since less affluent students may not have access to a computer and the Internet!</p>

<p>The things that an applicant can do that are unethical include such things as lying about (or padding) extracurriculars and volunteer work, claiming credit for that which they did not do on the grounds that "they never check." It includes cheating on school work or tests to get that better grade without working for it. It includes claiming a status that is not yours. It includes failing to disclose a disciplinary action or other such incident that is relevant and for which disclosure is requested. It includes plagiarizing, lying in, exaggerating or "embellishing" one's essay to make it "more interesting" and then certifying that everything on one's application is true. </p>

<p>And of course it also includes doing anything that hurts another directly (including agreeing to write a peer recommendation and not doing so; failing to drop off something for someone else at the guidance office, etc.).</p>

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<p>Since I agree with everyone else, I think there is a pretty clear consensus, too. The only thing in the original list that people object to -- and I think everyone has either objected to it or failed to address it -- is applying to nursing school as a strategy to transfer to engineering school. That was discussed in another thread recently. I doubt it works all that often -- people can usually smell a fraud. But I agree that it's unethical, whether or not it's effective, unless the student honestly intends to give nursing a fair trial.</p>

<p>On curmudgeon's additional list, I'm not so sure about transferring to a troubled school to improve class rank. Again, it seems highly unlikely to work as a general matter -- if you transfer mid-stream, your transcript busts you; if you transfer before high school, you risk your education, which is pretty perverse. But given that it would not be such a bad thing from a social standpoint to have good students more evenly distributed among schools, I'm not sure that doing this is unethical.</p>

<p>Here is something that I consider borderline unethical: Being a strong student, and applying to more than X schools other than as part of a legitimate strategy to obtain a competitive financial aid package. That seems like imposing costs on the system and other students without significant advantage to the individual, and like an attenuated type of lying. I don't know how many "X" is, but Roman numeral X is probably an OK stake in the ground.</p>

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<p>Agree with the general trend (in case someone's actually counting ;) ), well summed up by curmudgeon's post. </p>

<p>I also would have added at least 3 of curmudgeon's "additional" unethical things. Not sure about his top 10% item, but I think that may rise to the level of unfair/unethical in states like his with guaranteed admission to top schools if you are in the top 10%.</p>

<p>Top unethical in my list are these two:
1. Others writing essays.
2. Doctoring/selectively reporting financial information to obtain need-based aid.</p>

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<p>*Is it unethical to...</p>

<p>...participate in extracurricular activities during high school (or choose a particular extracurricular activity) primarily because colleges want students to do this, rather than because of any interest in the activity?*</p>

<p>No it isn't unethical
Because regardless of the original motivation to join the activity, the student is still participating, and may actually find something he enjoys- something I assume- he is not clear on all ready- because if there was an EC which he would be more interested in- then he should do it.</p>

<p>...study hard and earn good grades primarily because this is necessary for admission to selective colleges, rather than because of any true intellectual drive or interest in the subjects being studied? (When I was in high school, many kids considered this extremely unethical.)</p>

<p>While some kids may be of the * if it feels good, do it* philosophy, and resist anything they aren't getting personal enjoyment from, I think it is a sign of a strong student, not an unethical one, to do well in subjects that aren't interesting</p>

<p>...apply for and accept admission to a selective magnet high school that focuses on a specific area (such as math and science) even though you are not particularly interested in that area but simply want to get out of an inferior high school?
WHy would it be unethical to go to the strongest high school you can?
Yes theoretically, you are taking someone elses place, but as long as you didn't cheat to get there, there isn't anything that says that you aren't going to benefit from it.
THe district should be the one concerned about ethics, letting such an situation occur where schools are inequitable.</p>

<p>...apply to a less selective program within a particular university, with the specific intent of switching to a more selective program after admission (for example, apply to nursing, switch later to engineering)?
This borders on unethical, but the joke may be on teh student, when they find that schools are hip to that trick and often dont allow transfers as easily as they might hope.</p>

<p>...apply to a college Early Decision for strategic reasons even though the student is not actually "in love" with that college?</p>

<p>Well that is just dumb, but the only person they are cheating is themselves, because unless they can prove that they just can't afford it- they will have to end up attending if admitted.</p>

<p>*...provide recommendation writers (guidance counselors and teachers) with a "crib sheet" of the student's activities and achievements? *
This isn't unethical.
It is a good idea. Counselors may have 400- 500 students. They can't possibly remember everything that they know about the student when they sit down to write the recommendation, and certainly will forget one or two things that they especially wanted to mention.</p>

<p>...take advantage of legacy status by applying to the college(s) from which parents or grandparents graduated?
Family traditions aren't unethical ( generally)</p>

<p>My daughter attended the same highly competitive school that the Gates kids attend. It is even more competitive now- should the kids have applied under an assumed name & hid their identity to be more "ethical"? :confused:</p>

<p>...take advantage of URM status when one has not actually experienced the hardships that the special consideration for such individuals is intended to offset? (For example, is it unethical for wealthy recent immigrants from Africa or South America to check the African-American or Hispanic boxes on application forms, respectively?)</p>

<p>If the school- is looking for economic diversity, than they wouldn't apply- however- immigrants even wealthy and educated, do experience discrimination, and they aren't lying about their racial background so why not?
Sometimes we do have people with a distant Native American background, who aren't affliated with a tribe, try and gain minority status, but most tribes have higher requirements, than just wanting to game the system :)</p>

<p>...take advantage of opportunities not available to less affluent students (SAT prep classes, tutoring, private schools, etc.)?</p>

<p>These things are also available to low income students- For example, my older daughter was on scholarship in private school K-12.
Free and reduced fee classes are also available for SAT prep although we have not yet participated in any.
No they wont be able to spend $20,000 to package their kid, but a lot income student with strong academics, will be weighted heavier in admissions, than a kid from a wealthy background.</p>

13

<p>I mostly agree with all of you.</p>

<p>I started the thread because it seems to me that some of the kids who post on these boards consider some or all of these actions unethical, even if parents don't. Kids seem to especially object to the strategic use of Early Decision (and when I suggested that, I was assuming that the student would indeed attend if accepted) and to participation in extracurricular activities for college application purposes rather than out of a true love for the activity.</p>

<p>I considered some of the things on the list unethical myself, too, before I got involved in this process with my kids. Now, the only one I really object to is applying to one program with the intent of transferring to another, and I object to that mainly because it's often unworkable, rather than because it's morally wrong.</p>

<p>It still makes me feel a little bit dirty, though, to see kids giving counselors brag sheets, even though both of my kids' high schools require it. I think the honest thing would be for the GC to say "I haven't the slightest clue who this kid is, which is understandable since most of my time is devoted to dealing with major disasters in my caseload of 500 kids. All I can tell you, beyond what appears on the kid's transcript, is that the kid has never been involved in a major disaster. If he was, then I would know him." But I suppose that is out of the question.</p>

14

<p>I don't think any of those things are unethical. I do see some kids complain that it is unfair for other students to do these things. You have to utilize your opportunities though. The only one I would really question is choosing a less selective major to gain acceptance knowing you are going to switch to the tougher major.</p>

15

<p>Perhaps if the counselor had a photographic memory?
BUt they are only too human.
I get things mixed up that my kids did when they were little ( they are 8 years apart)- I think one did something that was actually the other.
I only have two kids!
If I cant keep my kids straight- how the heck is someone who doesn't even live with all 400 kids(or any) going to keep them straight?
:D</p>

16

<p>None of the things in the OP are unethical, say I, an ethics officer for a major corporation. :)</p>

17

<p>Look, as far as I know the whole GC recommendation has three, and only three, functions:</p>

<p>(1) Make certain that an accountable human being at the school takes responsibility for delivering an accurate transcript, an accurate explanation of the school's curriculum and grading/ranking system, and a certification of class rank or the equivalent.</p>

<p>(2) Make certain that and accountable human being at the school is in a position to know about and to be required to disclose disciplinary issues.</p>

<p>(3) Give a boost to kids at sophisticated private schools where there will be GCs who both really know the kid and really know how to sell him or her to particular schools. Unfair, yes, but that's life. And it probably has some effect if (a) the kid is such a leader that the GC at a big public school knows who he or she is beyond the brag sheet, and (b) the GC happens to be able to communicate that effectively.</p>

18

<p>I also agree with the thread majority on these, both as to which is the only unethical one on the first list, and the kind of things most people add that are indeed unethical.</p>

<p>Now, pedantic English major comment: Wherefore art thou, Integrity, is actually asking why is integrity integrity--a seemingly more "meta" question than the one being discussed. Juliet was bemoaning the fact that Romeo was who he was (a member of a rival family), rather than not seeng him standing below the balcony (often played for comedic effect by those who think wherefore means where.)</p>

<p>Sorry, continue on with the real thread topic now....</p>

19

<p>You are right about the Romeo thing, of course. I knew it was wrong when I posted it. I just wanted to get people to click on the thread.</p>

<p>Sorry if I offended all the English majors out there.</p>

20

<p>No offense (that's why I labeled myself a "pedantic English major".)</p>