<p>Ok, I’m back as the OP: </p>
<p>Would you folks say that the impact of the teachers in your kids’ lives has been positive or negative? I know there are some things we would all change (that happens in life outside of school, too), but in general, are you satisfied with your kid’s schooling?</p>
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<p>Maybe on another forum…</p>
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<p>How would our merit be measured? Test scores?</p>
<p>If we’re doing it on a GPA? We’ve had about a B average for the teachers and a C- for the administration. But the F’s have been incredibly damaging and challenging to overcome. Let’s just put it that way.</p>
<p>My opinion is that primary school/highschool/jhigh school teachers are paid just about right. They only work for 180 days a year for 8 hours and earn around 50-80k a year. That’s not bad. The counter to that argument is that teachers spend a lot of time outside of the classroom grading papers and preparing. This simply isn’t true with a lot of teachers and is entirely optional. Teachers are on the clock for one hour to prepare which is plenty to prepare the lesson for the 2-3 different curricula they teach. They can then have the TA/students grade the papers and assign all the projects in presentation form making it so they only have to work a little over a thousand hours a year. Compare that to my father who works over 2000 hours a year for only a slightly higher salary than a teachers range. The average office worker has to work for 1500 hours a year.</p>
<p>It’s not enough to live in a rich district but when you’re working 500 hours less than your average 9-5 office worker, you don’t have a lot to complain about for making >50k.</p>
<p>“How would merit be measured? Test scores?”</p>
<p>How is merit measured in any industry. Performance. Partially test scores, partially client satisfaction. As Starbright points out, in any other industry, the performers get the business.</p>
<p>I’m sure an assessment system could be worked out to reward performing teachers and get rid of the non-performers, and, most importantly, the ones who have no business at all in the business.</p>
<p>merit raises would be granted by how much clout you had with the BoE or the political powers in your town.</p>
<p>poet- there is a distinct difference in government and industry. In government you reward those that keep you in power in industry you reward those that help you make money. I am afraid to say that keeping someone in power in government is based on delivering votes.</p>
<p>HOw about the fact that there are certain teachers that parents consistently beg not to have for thier children? Or the fact that I’m sure the teachers one grade up consistently see that kids from certain classes come in much less or much more prepared? It isn’t that difficult if a teachers kids are consistently outperforming another teacher’s kids to see who deserves a raise.</p>
<p>So, Tom? You’re the big one for changing things and positing hypotheticals. Let’s play here, too, and not just on the finances. No?</p>
<p>So, would you have it assessed on a district level or a state level? Who would be the assessor of the merit increase?</p>
<p>I would be happy if we could just get rid of the nonperformers. A teacher with unhappy students, unhappy parents, bad peer and principal evaluations and lousy test scores is unlikely to be a diamond in the rough. </p>
<p>Using the same metrics for merit pay isn’t foolproof. Someone who doesn’t rock the boat and who grades more generously is more likely to get positive evaluations from staff, parents and students. The tough demanding teacher might not do as well, even if she or he is the better teacher. </p>
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<p>This is simply not the case in our school district. An hour is not necessarily enough to prepare for one curriculum, let alone 2-3, or the 5 or 6 that some teachers cover. There are no TAs, and students cannot grade papers other than multiple choice or fixed answer. A teacher’s grading abilities are needed for partial credit on math or science work or for useful commentary on essays.</p>
<p>Obviously, all assessments should be done within the realm of the district who is paying for the education. So, for our area, it would initially be done by the assistant principle, overseen by the principle, overseen by the Board. The high school, it would be done by the dean for each class, overseen by one or another of the assistant principles overseen by the principle and the board. The board would be answerable to the parents, and parent assessments would come into play, as well. A coalescence of performance (tests) and parent satisfaction and peer review by the recieving teachers, would be the best way, imho. Heaviest weight would be given to peer review as they are the ones in the best position to see the real results of the last year teaching over the largest # of kids, so that the outlier parents or odd kid who just doesn’t get along with a certain teacher can’t create an unfair situation.</p>
<p>Now that I’m thinking about it a bit more, poetgrl, there is a merit pay program in place (somewhat). </p>
<p>The National Board of Professional Teaching Standards [National</a> Board for Professional Teaching Standards: National Board for Professional Teaching Standards](<a href=“NBPTS Main Site Home - NBPTS Main Site”>http://www.nbpts.org/)
has a program: “Like board-certified doctors and accountants, teachers who achieve National Board Certification have met rigorous standards through intensive study, expert evaluation, self-assessment and peer review.”</p>
<p>Some states and districts will pay a teacher more if they achieve certification: [National</a> Board for Professional Teaching Standards: State & Local Information](<a href=“NBPTS Main Site Home - NBPTS Main Site”>NBPTS Main Site Home - NBPTS Main Site)</p>
<p>FYI, I am a National Board Certified Teacher. Per our contract, my district does pay me more to hold this certification. It was a negotiated item in the contract. Our union wanted it in.</p>
<p>poet- I actually like merit raises but we can not even get administrators to review poor teachers and have them removed or counseled for improvement because of those bad tenure rules and the union. How are we going to get them to do a fair review of 80 to 100 teachers in their school?</p>
<p>Let’s ask the teachers in private schools, charter schools and religious schools do you get merit increases and what are they based on?</p>
<p>Good question Tom. Let’s ask.</p>
<p>Hey–“teachers in private schools, charter schools and religious schools do you get merit increases and what are they based on?” Oh, “And can abusive or non-performing teachers be fired without parents bringing in attorneys?”</p>
<p>I tend to agree. No I won’t quibble about hours worked, I said that earlier. But I do think evaluations could be done. As I said earlier, if a teacher is doing remedial work with students because material that should have been covered in the previous year was not covered, that’s a problem. If multiple parents are complaining. That’s a problem. If kids are switching out of the class on a regular basis, that’s a problem. If complimentary e-mails are coming in, that a good sign. If kids are switching into a particular teachers section that’s a good sign and so on. There is so much testing that happens annually, if the testing is trending down, that’s a sign. I think so many things happen right now that are just not compiled in an evaluative manner. Most employees have annual evaluations. If there are performance issues, a plan is written up and there is another evaluation scheduled. If the employee has corrected the deficits OK, if not, goodbye. This is pretty normal SOP. Our senior scholars name the teacher that was most influential in their K-12 years and generally the same ones pop up over and over…there is a reason for that and those teachers deserve to have merit based pay or share in soe sort of bonus pool. Just as it is wrong to continue to employ deadwood employees, it is the American way to reward those that excel. I think there is this unfounded fear that the renegade parent can influence a teacher’s eval in a negative way, but I think that is an unfounded fear. The renegade complainer is easily identified and should be dealt with through the administrative process.</p>
<p>I have a lot of love and respect for teachers. My mother-in-law was a fabulous teacher (still subbing) for 4 decades, my sister-in-law is a fabulous special-ed teacher and my daughter is in her second year with Teach for America. The good ones work really, really hard. My MIL probably never went into a drugstore in 40 years without dropping $40 of her own money into her classroom. My kids have had some amazing teachers over the years and I have been in a school where the love for teachers was felt everywhere – in classroom gifts, in parents who gave two days a week to do all the copying and laminating and so forth for the teachers at the school, in parents who regularly committed to being in classrooms as assistants, with parents who spent huge amounts of time raising funds so that teachers and students could have aides, more field trips, the best of everything – and this was a public elementary school. It was a school with a waiting list of about 2,000 and everyone – from parents to faculty to custodial staff – felt very lucky to be there and it showed in everyone’s efforts.</p>
<p>But in middle school and high school, while we still had some amazing, amazing teachers, we also had a few who really should not have been there - some just didn’t know the material they were teaching properly (e.g. there is a dearth of qualified teachers for subjects such as AP Physics or Chem in big cities), and some were so angry about so many things that they just quit doing their best – one teacher actually told me he used to be good but now he was so angry at things like constant testing, etc. that he didn’t want to put forth his best effort. Those experiences temper how people feel about teachers. It’s frustrating when your kid is learning nothing from a teacher who is just not putting forth the effort. And it’s more than frustrating when a teacher behaves completely inappropriately. </p>
<p>That said, I think too many parents take their kids word for what happens and don’t bother to find out the other side of the story. Usually there is one and kids have no problem trying to play one adult against another. It surprises me that parents take their kids word so readily and don’t check things out for themselves.</p>
<p>Most employees have annual evaluations. If there are performance issues, a plan is written up and there is another evaluation scheduled. If the employee has corrected the deficits OK, if not, goodbye. This is pretty normal SOP. </p>
<p>This is a significant reason why bad teachers win their tenure battles the annual evaluations do document any problems. I also see this with my subordinates they tell me an employee is a poor performer or that they do not deserve a promotion. The first thing I ask for is to see their performance agreement and latest evaluation. When my subordinates first worked for me these two documents never backed up what they said. It took one performance cycle where they were down graded, yes it was required of them in their agreement, for these supervisors to understand the importance of these documents.</p>
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<p>I can’t answer that but I can share this: My daughter worked for the Los Angeles Unified School District last year and is now in a charter school. She told me last night that she feels like she can never have an off day (in terms of performance) where she is now – not that she ever allowed herself one last year. But last year, no principal or assistant principal visited her classroom for many, many months – they are supposed to at least once a month – and she was a brand-new teacher. She knew no one was really watching. Now her principal and AP come in all the time to observe and she feels pressure to perform well every day and she really believes that if she doesn’t, she can be replaced. Knowing that you can be replaced if you don’t do well does matter in the work force, regardless of the job. And knowing you won’t be replaced, and that it’s almost impossible to lose your job, can affect performance for a lot of people, regardless of the job.</p>
<p>Post 85 does not even vaguely resemble the reality of public school teaching, or even in many cases private school teaching, although in general private school teachers are way more respected (not just in their position but in their working conditions, assumptions, etc.) than publics are.</p>
<p>I already posted the reality of job conditions and expectations in at least one giant State of this vast nation. I have read enough and am in touch with enough educators (off of CC) to know that the same and even worst conditions exist in many other regions of the country.</p>
<p>They are not earning any 80K, for the most part. Most are earning on the lower end of that spectrum. They leave their classrooms around the 3rd week in June and restart somewhere between early August and mid-August, depending on the school – with mandated meetings and such. Those in charter schools in my area get only 4 weeks off; the rest get about 6.) For the non-teaching days of the actual academic year there are numerous mandatory in-service days, and further, many of the more newly credentialed teachers are required to attend and pay for (yes, written off, I know) a minimum # of hours of professional development. Naturally, they should do that anyway. I’m on record as saying that. I don’t support the “punch-clock” mentality, which has no place in teaching, and I – if not hamstrung by unions - would fire any teacher who exhibited that kind of time-awareness and minimalist approach to the profession. That’s really demeaning and belongs in factory work, for heaven’s sake.</p>
<p>But the poster is just way off and not knowledgeable at all about the realities.</p>