<p>D has excellent stats, lets assume hypothetically that she is competitve at all the schools short of HYPS. Which Lac or smaller university will offer excellent advanced french classes, strong physics dept, strong english; looking for an intellectual atmosphere but a place where she can still have some fun but not limited to drinking. She has no strong geographical preference. Thanks.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Which Lac or smaller university will offer excellent advanced french classes, strong physics dept, strong english; looking for an intellectual atmosphere but a place where she can still have some fun but not limited to drinking.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think this kind of question is looking at colleges backwards. I strongly believe that, for students looking at fairly common fields, the emphasis should be on finding the schools that are a match from a campus culture standpoint. Then, examine that list to confirm that they offer sufficient breadth and depth in the departments of interest.</p>
<p>For example, some of the women's colleges are noted for their strength in languages, but if the kid is a guy or the a girl who does't want a single-sex college, that strength is irrelevant. Or, you could find a school that has great departments, but, if it's a frat boy drinking school and your kid is a teetotaler geek, the school isn't going to be a match. Likewise, if it's a french designer handbag school and you've got an LL Bean backpack daughter, the match may not be good no matter how strong a particular department.</p>
<p>Probably the best way to evaluate a language department is to see if the college offers its own study-abroad program in that country, or is at least in a consortium that operates a program.</p>
<p>Looking at future PhD production is probably as valid for Physics as any other measure, given that most of the career paths in Physics are academic/research related. However, I would pay particular attention to class size and TA issues in the hard sciences.</p>
<p>English departments are just plain weird to evaluate these days. It's such a staple that virtually all LACs have a solid department, but English has also been sidetracked by gender and ethnic specialization.</p>
<p>Well, here are a few I recommend:</p>
<p>Bryn Mawr College
Carleton College
Dartmouth College
Middleburry College
Princeton University
Rice University
University of Chicago</p>
<p>And obviously, Amherst, Swarthmore and Williams.</p>
<p>Mommamia,
You are really asking for 2 separate searches: a compatable campus culture and strength in areas of interest. One thing I would keep in mind is that career interests do change frequently even in fairly focused kids. It sounds like your D has several interests, so it may well turn out that she may get interested in something entirely different than those 3 areas. So, based on your D's campus cultural preferences, I would focus on finding a place with an intellectual atmosphere where kids are excited about learning and the professors have a strong relationship with their students and where maybe the social scene isn't always focused on drinking which is common in college. My S will be going to Brandeis in the fall and I have been very impressed with the intellectual environment and close relationship with teachers there. The kids have fun, especially involved with theatrical and singing groups and although Boston is nearby, there seems to be a sizable group of kids focussed on campus activities on the weekend, which was important to my S. Drinking is obviously there too, but I got the distinct impression talking the kids there (not just the admissions officers and tour guides) that this was not the dominant culture there. This was the most intellectual of the campuses that we visited (including Cornell, Tulane, Tufts, Hobart) but I am sure there are others out there. Once you have identified them you can investigate further as to their specific academic strengths and weaknesses, but I do agree with interesteddad that it probably makes most sense to start with an exciting compatable campus culture.</p>
<p>French - Middlebury</p>
<p>Middlebury is a perfect example of how focusing on a particular department can keep you from seeing the forest for the trees.</p>
<p>Yes, it has a reputation for strength in languages. But, it also has a very distinctive campus culture with a student body that is among the whitest (75%), weathiest (60% full-tuition), and preppiest of all the LACs in the country and, by far the leader in those categories among the northeast LACs. </p>
<p>So, depending on what a particular student is looking for in terms of campus culture, it may be a great fit or a horrible fit. If it's a bad fit, then the reputation of the French department isn't going to make a darn bit of difference.</p>
<p>I believe that it makes much more sense to define some campus culture priorities (frat or not, jock or geek, heavy drinking or not, white or diverse, uniformly wealthy or not, intellectual or pre-professional, rural or urban/suburban, etc.) and key on those to assemble a starting point. Then, look at the trees (the French department, etc.) at each school on the list. Now, it is possible that strength in a department of interest, particularly if it's an unusual strength, may ultimately trump campus culture issues. But, even in that case, it's important to understand the big picture campus culture issues and know that you are consciously deciding to ignore them in the college selection. In my opinion, too many kids use the "department strength" or the "rankings" as a crutch because they really don't have the confidence to assess how they might fit into the campus culture. Parents can help in this process with some wide-ranging discussions of what the overall college experience is really like.</p>
<p>Thanks for the replies; please note that I did say that the school should have an intellectual atmosphere and not a major party school.</p>
<p>Swarthmore and Reed sound like good matches.</p>
<p>I don't think you could find a top college that DOESN'T have an excellent English department. As for the trio of super-selective LACS, neither Amherst, Williams nor Swarthmore would be the first choice destination for Physics or French but for the COMBINATION of English, Physics and French all three would be excellent choices. </p>
<p>I can only speak for Williams because of my son's experience, and for sure, many kids major in similarly diverse disciplines. The idea of expanding your brain in completely different directions is not only acceptable, but encouraged. My guess is that the same is true of Amherst and Swarthmore. </p>
<p>There are very smart kids at all of these schools and contrary to popular myth ALL offer intense intellectual atmospheres and ALL have basically happy multifaceted students. They are quite different in culture however and usually a visit will focus the student's preference. Academically you can't go wrong at any one.</p>
<p>I've come to the conclusion that <em>all</em> US colleges are big party schools. some moreso than others, but all the top LACs are both intellectual & party-harty - "work hard, play hard," if you will.</p>
<p>Look into these schools:
Middlebury
Amherst
Dartmouth
Williams
Reed
Carleton
Pomona
Claremont McKenna</p>
<p>Here are links to one data point: PhD production over the most recent ten-year period (1994-2003) per 1000 undergrads of current (2003) enrollment in each of the three departments you asked about. There are many factors that go into PhD production: the overall tendency of students to get PhDs (academic versus pre-prof), the popularity of each department in a school, and the academic orientation of the departments. It should not be viewed as a "ranking" or as the end-all and be-all, but it provides some relative comparisons of the strength of departments at various schools. For example, Bryn Mawr is obviously very strong in languages, Amherst is obviously very strong in English Lit, Harvey Mudd is obviously very strong in Physics.</p>
<p>The LACs, as a group, produce a lot of PhDs. I don't think you'll see any big surprises: Swarthmore, Reed, Amherst, Bryn Mawr, Pomona, Williams, Carleton, Grinnell, Haverford, and so on and so forth. I think you'll also see that any of these schools would be solid choices (although language would be the one area where you want to look at study-abroad opportunities in France). It will still end up with overall campus-culture being a more determining factor.</p>
<p>Please keep in mind that these are the top-50 out of thousands of US colleges and universities. So don't think of the bottom of the list as the bottom of anything. Being among the top-50 future PhD producers in a field is very strong.</p>
<p>English Lit:</p>
<p>Language and Linguistics:</p>
<p>Physics:</p>
<p>Excellence in English comes in many guises. If you're serious about English, you should know in advance what KIND of department you're stepping in to, because English is a field in which the faculty's scholarship and scholarly attitudes will directly affect what classes are available and how they are taught.</p>
<p>Swarthmore, Oberlin, Carleton and Reed come immediately to mind, but I believe that quite a few LACs would be good options for someone with those interests.</p>
<p>Interesteddad wrote: "But, [Middlebury] also has a very distinctive campus culture with a student body that is among the whitest (75%), weathiest (60% full-tuition), and preppiest of all the LACs in the country and, by far the leader in those categories among the northeast LACs."</p>
<p>That last point is simply not true. You need to do a bit more research. I've done a little for you:</p>
<p>Middlebury's student body (70% Caucasian) is not "by far" the whitest among New England LACs. Here are a few I found:</p>
<p>Colby College: 83% Caucasian
Bates College: 83% Caucasian
Bowdoin College: 72% Caucasian
Conn College: 71% Caucasian</p>
<p>All stats taken from the same source, whose name cannot be uttered on College Confidential without being blocked. I'm sure you can find plenty of other examples. And last time I checked, the official "preppy" meter (which confirms that Middlebury is "by far" the preppiest LAC in New England), was broken. Maybe they'll fix it soon so that we can see just how much preppier Midd is than Amherst, and Williams, and Bowdoin, etc. By far.</p>
<p>I've never heard any complaints about physics, french* or english at Wesleyan. Quite the opposite. It's larger than Amherst and Williams but smaller than Dartmouth; the campus culture is probably closer to Swarthmore with one difference: the kids seem to have more fun.</p>
<p>*Edit: There was some talk several years ago about eliminating the Intro level courses in French and Spanish, but I don't know what ever happened to it.</p>
<p>"And obviously, Amherst, Swarthmore and Williams."</p>
<p>Why "obviously"?</p>
<p>Languages at Williams are not strong. They're just not. There are easily three dozen LACs with better French programs, especially when you get to more advanced studies. (They have 3 profs, one of whom also teaches Italian, and a lecturer who teaches at a local high school. The "chair" of the department doesn't even teach French. Does this make it "obvious"?)</p>
<p>You can have fun without drinking at any of the LACs. Between 20-30% of all students will be non-drinkers. However, binge drinking rates differ very widely school-to-school, with alcohol taking up significantly more or less of the social space.</p>
<p>Any of the top 40 LACs will have fine English departments, with faculty virtually interchangeable. Some will have slight differences in emphasis. Physics departments will vary much more widely (Williams is renowned for astrophysics), and language departments most of all. Study abroad options vary quite widely (if this is an issue), with some schools requiring as little as one semester of language study (Williams) to others requiring two full years plus a course in stylistics (Smith), and everything in between. If this is an interest, make sure to kick the tires.</p>
<p>Middlebury and Williams have very high "entitlement" indices, with extremely high percentages of students who require no need-based aid and/or attended private schools. Mind you, they aren't low at Swarthmore or Amherst (or any of a two dozen other places), just higher there.</p>
<p>Mini, D is already an advanced french student so she should qualify for study abroad which is definitely in her future. In fact, she would love to study science in France, an option I rarely see listed (Brown was a noteworthy exception) in study abroad programs. Williams was very honest about their weak French program when we visited; I have no info on physics or French at any of the other schools although I have the impression both are strong at Middlebury and perhaps at Darmouth.
Dartmouth also has a women is science support program that we are trying to learn more about. Thanks for all the helpful replies.</p>
<p>Midd may not be the "whitest," but it is 1 of the least racially/culturally diverse schools, and is more elitist/preppy b/c of this lack of diversity, as well as the high percentage of very wealthy students.</p>
<p>it does however, have possibly the strongest language program of any of the LACs.</p>
<p>"Mini, D is already an advanced french student so she should qualify for study abroad which is definitely in her future. In fact, she would love to study science in France, an option I rarely see listed (Brown was a noteworthy exception) in study abroad programs."</p>
<p>Have you checked the Hamilton program for studying science in France? I think they have what you are looking for, and are well-recognized for their quality. (We kicked the tires on the quality of JYA programs, which we found varied very widely indeed - my d. is going to Italy, though, not France.) In Paris, Hamilton, Middlebury, and Smith are the three members of what is probably the best JYA consortium, but I think (am not sure) that only Hamilton arranges for science courses.</p>
<p>collegeboundjen said: "Midd may not be the "whitest," but it is 1 of the least racially/culturally diverse schools, and is more elitist/preppy b/c of this lack of diversity, as well as the high percentage of very wealthy students."</p>
<p>Did you go to Middlebury, or are you simply relying on a visit, hearsay, or what you read on this board? Midd has one of the highest percentages of international students of any national LAC (higher than Williams, Amherst, Swat, Pomona, Bowdoin, etc.). I'm not saying that Middlebury is the most diverse place, but I'm constantly amazed by how many folks here think that the students you'll find at Middlebury are much different from the students at Williams, or Bowdoin, or Hamilton. Newsflash: they're about as similar as you can get.</p>