Both of my kids were born in NYC and were exported to NJ in early childhood when they could not render their opinion on this matter. They were looking forward to correct this injustice (one already did).
It also seems like there are two extremes - kids who NEED to get out and the ones who are staying. Most of my friends have either applied to all OOS schools and maybe a school in NJ as a “safety”, or they applied to almost all New Jersey schools. My sister applied to all in-state schools, and I applied to all out of state schools.
I guess I do not understand the meaning of “demand”.
demand != desire
@blossom this was the best school I got into, so saying academic rigor was my top priority isn’t really counter-intuitive at all.
When did I imply I had any “secret sauce” on anything? The UNC system is leaps and bounds ahead of the NJ state U system, and UNCW is better than most, if not all, of the schools in the NJ system. The NJ system isn’t even above-average. If it was, higher-quality students would remain home instead of going OOS each year.
I have a few good friends who stayed in-state. My best friend goes to Rowan lol. That’s just not for me, and it’s apparently not ideal for 55% of NJ high schoolers either.
this thread is a trainwreck that i cant look away from…
the reasons for nj flight are incredibly multifaceted. some of them are well articulated on this thread and very thoughtful in their explanations.
but to imply that new jerseys higher education system is one step above a degree from Bob’s Hair College is absolutely ludicrous.
i would believe that more kids actually do leave the state in search of better football than because they are worried about being “less educated” and believe that they cant get a solid education in state. this state has rich educational opportunities (which unfortunately do come at a price) with truly something for everyone. its disingenuous to suggest otherwise. there are very valid reasons to look OOS, but lack of quality education wouldnt even make the top 10 list.
i certainly hope to the heavens that any nj kid reading this can weigh their options critically without depending on sentiments that are based on “because one person thinks it it must be true”.
@kac425 when you say “rich educational opportunities”, I think you are referring to K-12…
Look at the average GPAs and SAT scores of incoming freshmen at NJ schools. Look at the grad rates and retention rates. The only three schools in the entire state with grad rates above 70% and retention rates above 85% are Princeton, Rutgers, and TCNJ. (Rowan I think has a grad rate of 70% but idk about the retention rate; Stevens has a high-ish retention rate but the grad rate is iffy) If the universities had better quality academics, I might’ve given a marginally closer look into staying. Might.
It’s not just me saying it. Several others have agreed with me on this very thread a few pages back. It’s factual when it’s said that NJ has a weaker higher ed system compared with the likes of CA, VA, NC, FL, TX, OH etc (its privates are pathetic). You can’t argue with that.
By the way, my school doesn’t even have football. Better that than to have an absolutely god awful team that gets smacked 78-0 at home like the one at Rutgers. NJ college sports are absolutely laughable. I guess all the athletic talent follows the academic talent OOS as well?
There’s something to that. Just as most of the top academic performers want to be at the top academic schools, so, too, do most of the top athletes want to be part of the top athletic programs. Michigan football has found New Jersey to be particularly fertile recruiting ground, producing stars like consensus All-American LB/DB Jabrill Peppers and 2016’s national #1 football recruit, DE Rashan Gary. Michigan also has a verbal commitment from NJ’s top 2017 recruit, LB Drew Singleton. To give you some idea of what Rutgers is up against, Singleton also had offers from Alabama, Clemson, Notre Dame, Ohio State, and Penn State, among others. Tough to compete in that market.
On the other hand, if you go down a list of 2017’s top 25 NJ football recruits, one recruiting website shows that Rutgers presently has verbal commitments from the #2, #3, #19, and #20 recruits in the state. So they’re getting some top talent to stay at home. Probably still not enough, though, if 21 out of the top 25 recruits in the state go elsewhere. And it’s not as if Rutgers is going to be a big draw for top OOS athletic talent.
NJ high school teacher and mom of a senior here. I agree with @jjohnross and @collegeman44.
The issue is not the quality of the education at these schools. It is all of the other intangibles that make the college experience. If a student visits UDel or UVM and then goes to see Rutgers, well, if you have seen all three campuses, you know what I am talking about. Rutgers doesn’t stand a chance. Gorgeous, leafy campuses with a historic feel and charming towns compared to New Brunswick? It is a tough sell. On paper these state flagships appear expensive but the secret sauce is that they give the OOS applicants enough merit that the student (and in some cases the parents) can say, “Phew, I don’t have to go to Rutgers!”
My own senior can go to UNH, UMaine, UVM and U of Utah for close to the cost of Rutgers. The one school that made it prohibitive to attend from out of state was Boulder. If you poke around the college’s websites, you can unearth little nuggets of gold. For instance, all OOS students at Utah can take classes at the instate rate during the summer. The OOS tuition/room/board is $34,000. If they give you some merit, and you take advantage of the summer classes and some AP credit, all of a sudden that school is cheaper than Rutgers, even with the travel costs.
Head to Utah. Nobody is telling you not to. But the implication that the thousands of kids who stay instate to go to Rutgers are too stupid to get admitted to Utah is what some of us are objecting to. Or that the education that they will get is so inferior that they’ll never get a job or get into grad school.
…no one said kids who go to Rutgers are stupid…
But I did see the campus last summer, driving through with a friend. I can confirm that it doesn’t compare to that of my school or even a few of the other schools I got into a couple years back.
I don’t think anyone seriously believes that Rutgers kids are stupid. What many people are saying though is that while Rutgers offers an excellent education, it’s costs are simply not affordable enough to stay in-state. And that’s true of most in-state NJ schools.
I feel as if New Jersey is not trying to keep young people in the state. If they did, they would lower tuition for residents. If you look at NC or FL state schools, you’ll see what a good deal it is to go to an in-state school there. In NJ, it makes no sense if you can pay the same at a private or OOS school.
Great to know that the attitude “Phew, I don’t have to go to Rutgers!” is supported by NJ HS teachers. By the way, Rutgers accepts APs and IBs too and you can do a coop during the year or in the summer possibly living at home.
Good luck everyone at historic and leafy campuses! Hopefully, you will not have to read the threads about parent basements.
@LBad96 May be all NJ kids can not get into Princeton, so they have to go Out of State.
@grtd2010 most students worldwide cannot get into Princeton. There is absolutely zero shame in the admittance of that fact. But none of the others are very affordable, either.
@veehee spot on. UNCW costs about the same for me as Rutgers/TCNJ/Rowan would’ve, and costs less than NJIT would’ve. (Rider, my private safety, would’ve only cost $3k/year with scholarships and grants, but I also had loans to worry about. Just not worth it when it’s much weaker than the school I go to). NJ does fail at keeping young people in the state, but it’s probably even worse at attracting young people from other states to go to school there.
@Tanbiko you know, many people just wouldn’t fit at Rutgers, myself included. I know I would’ve been miserable there, as would many other NJ students. Sometimes, people leave the state to find a school that fits them. gasp! shocker!!
@LBad96 good point that very few consider a NJ school if they are from the other 49 states. Can’t think of any reason why they would.
So, here’s the bottom line for students who go to Rutgers–by choice or because they have no choice: If you are pro-active you will 1. Have excellent professors and academics 2. Make life-long friends. (Instead of bonding over how great the football team is, you’ll bond over how awful the bus system is). 3. You will be very employable–especially if you want to work in the NYC area and major in a marketable field. This is hardly an awful outcome.
I was going to just let this thread slide, but as @kac425 said, I just can’t look away.
I want to defend a few NJ schools that have been bashed here. Up-thread there was a discussion comparing Stevens, Drew, and Seton Hall in NJ to three private schools in MD.
Stevens was the best by far for test scores for the six MD and NJ schools mentioned with a 31 average student ACT. That’s also a higher average than UVM, UNH, Chapel Hill, and comparable to Michigan! It’s a hard school to get into, and people from all over the country go there. More than 40% are from out of state. Yes, Stevens is most expensive of the six schools, but Stevens grads also have some of the highest starting and mid-career salaries in the country (#17 according to Payscale). People that go to Stevens are really smart and get good jobs. Stevens has a great co-op program. For many Stevens students, the plan is to graduate in 5 years with the co-op program, and that makes the 4 year grad rate look bad and not a good metric to use for comparison. I’ve been on the campus, and the location is amazing. How many other college dorms and dining halls have a Manhattan skyline view? One of my kids knows someone who goes to Stevens (from outside NJ), and they absolutely love it there.
“Massively overpriced” Seton Hall is actually the cheapest of all 6 private schools mentioned by a lot, and is pretty low-priced for a private school in general. Seton Hall tuition is $4K a year less than any of the other five private schools mentioned. It has reasonable student score stats, and nationally competitive Div1 basketball. The men’s basketball team regularly makes it into the NCAA or NIT tournaments. It’s categorized as a “National University” by USNWR, and ranked just outside of the top 100. I don’t know anyone who goes there and have never been on the campus.
I’ll also defend Drew a bit. I’ve met kids that go to Drew and have I have visited the school. It’s an attractive campus. They have strong sciences for a small, private LAC. They also are known for theater. They take advantage of local NJ industry and bring in retired scientists from NJ research corporations to work with students on research projects, so there’s interesting science research opportunities for students that want them. It’s a nice school, and the students I spoke with really liked it there – two of them came from out-of-state.
Every school have positives and negatives. Please keep in mind schools you are bashing are someone else’s dream school or “the best school they got in to,” and they are happy there, and proud they got in.
@stencils Great points! I too was getting annoyed and was about to support Stevens and Seton Hall, but you beat me too it. Stevens is a great school and Hoboken is now a great little city, with bars, restaurants and lots of young professionals living there. With the Hall, it is not Georgetown, but still a very strong academic Catholic university. Also, it is quite easy to get $20k a year in merit aid with decent (but not tippy top) scores/grades…
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_309.10.asp
I too am annoyed with how some people are skewing what these numbers mean. If you look at the numbers above, you would come to the conclusion that Vermont has the “best” schools since 67% of seats are taken by OOS ( with WV, RI, ND, NH, following with 50% or more OOS) Texas would be the worst with only 7.7% being OOS (followed by NJ, CA, MO, and MI)
NJ alone has 29,000 MORE students that attend college than there are seats in state.